High Bracing on the back deck

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no-no
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High Bracing on the back deck

Post by no-no » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:52 pm

I keep getting different opinions on this. I much prefer to brace while leaning back with my head down low. It feels easier and more stable, easier to control. On ocassions where I've nearly capsized and I would usually get into a string of repeated high braces I've found if I let my body and head hit the water I can brace or scull successfully.

A lot of the coaches at my club tell me I should have my weight forwards though as in moving water I'll just capsize if I have my weight that far back. I've been following EJ's video's on youtube and he says to brace with your weight back too....

So what's the deal?

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Franky » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:27 pm

no-no wrote:I keep getting different opinions on this. I much prefer to brace while leaning back with my head down low. It feels easier and more stable, easier to control. On ocassions where I've nearly capsized and I would usually get into a string of repeated high braces I've found if I let my body and head hit the water I can brace or scull successfully.

A lot of the coaches at my club tell me I should have my weight forwards though as in moving water I'll just capsize if I have my weight that far back. I've been following EJ's video's on youtube and he says to brace with your weight back too....

So what's the deal?
I'm no expert, but I'd say go with whatever works for you. After a certain point, I think you can start picking and choosing which techniques you go with, and even come up with some of your own.

I tend instinctively to do what you do, and lean back rather than forward. It just feels right somehow to have your paddle far back (with hips turned of course); maybe it's because it enables you to do a bit of a stern rudder once you've stabilised.

In flat water, I've practised sculling with my head right back, and been able to go for several seconds with my boat at almost 90 degrees to the water. I can't see how this would be possible with your head leaning forward, because it would be difficult to get your paddle in any kind of useful position when you're crouched over your boat like that.

Seems to me to be a balance between what's technically optimum, and what the body actually feels comfortable doing.

Every "accepted" technique started with somebody experimenting around and finding out what worked.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:32 pm

The accepted technique used to be leaning back until someone realised that you are much more likely to dislocate your shoulder in this position. If, however, your shoulder remains intact leaning back will leave you seriously off balance for the next important move on your river, the boat will be near uncontrollable until you can get yourself back upright.

Leaning back is generally considered to be bad practice and it is worth practicing avoiding this stance.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by no-no » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:24 pm

I was originally taught to keep the body weight forward with your paddle at 2 o clock if you were bracing to the right.I can't tip over nearly as much using that method though,you need to really crunch your abs to keep your body down.

Recently another instructor showed me how to lean back but to still keep the paddle forward at 2 o clock,leaning back I can pretty much control the boat at any angle down to a full capsize becaue the centre of gravity of the boat is pretty much in the centre.

Will have to play about with this at cardiff.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:20 pm

When practicing, you might have an aim to get the boat to 90 degrees but on the river your aim should be to use the stroke to get you back upright before you have reached this point. The stroke has limited application, merely to avoid catastophic capsise, in reality you should be developing a skill of driving the boat with power strokes which will help to keep the boat upright.

You will have a similar issue with sculling for support. Lying back will make the stroke easier but expose the shoulder. Again the stroke has limited application in this scenario but the technique can be applied early on to prevent going too far. For example if you drop sideways off a feature leaning back would be a nightmare but a well timed scull stroke will stabilise you sufficiently to get another forward power stroke in and drive yourself away from the incident.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Franky » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:35 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:The accepted technique used to be leaning back until someone realised that you are much more likely to dislocate your shoulder in this position. If, however, your shoulder remains intact leaning back will leave you seriously off balance for the next important move on your river, the boat will be near uncontrollable until you can get yourself back upright.
Not saying you're wrong, but do you have any sources?

Sometimes it seems that as soon as an injury is publicised, whatever technique the paddler was applying at the time is thrown into disrepute; and then some other technique, typically less effective, is heralded as the one that is in fact correct.

If incidence of shoulder injury is a measure of how inadvisable a move is, I'm guessing that rolling would be near the top of the list of things you should never attempt.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Bod Bagby » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:15 pm

Franky wrote:
Adrian Cooper wrote:The accepted technique used to be leaning back until someone realised that you are much more likely to dislocate your shoulder in this position. If, however, your shoulder remains intact leaning back will leave you seriously off balance for the next important move on your river, the boat will be near uncontrollable until you can get yourself back upright.
Not saying you're wrong, but do you have any sources?

Sometimes it seems that as soon as an injury is publicised, whatever technique the paddler was applying at the time is thrown into disrepute; and then some other technique, typically less effective, is heralded as the one that is in fact correct.

If incidence of shoulder injury is a measure of how inadvisable a move is, I'm guessing that rolling would be near the top of the list of things you should never attempt.
Franky

I am guessing you are well under the age of 40 and therefore don't remember when we all thought it brilliant to be able to lean out and as far back as possible when doing high braces? Anybody of my sort of age who has managed not to hurt their shoulders will tell you to tuck in, stay forward and maintain blade contact with the water so you avoid bracing wherever possible. I am now a published source backing up Adrian. Seriously, I have seen two dislocations in pools from high bracing which would now be roundly accepted as bad technique.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Franky » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:37 pm

Bod Bagby wrote:
Franky

I am guessing you are well under the age of 40 and therefore don't remember when we all thought it brilliant to be able to lean out and as far back as possible when doing high braces? Anybody of my sort of age who has managed not to hurt their shoulders will tell you to tuck in, stay forward and maintain blade contact with the water so you avoid bracing wherever possible. I am now a published source backing up Adrian. Seriously, I have seen two dislocations in pools from high bracing which would now be roundly accepted as bad technique.
Thanks Bod for the clarification, and I'm willing to stand corrected. Sorry to hear of your injury, and I hope it healed OK.

Actually I am 46, so I take your advice seriously. Recently, when I was practising high braces in the pool, a fellow paddler told me I was overextending my near-side arm, so now I am careful to keep my upper arm below shoulder height and never to extend my arms fully, whatever I'm doing. But as I say, I take on board what you say about not leaning back to brace, and avoiding braces as far as possible.

(When I was in my early 20s, I got a frozen shoulder through over-vigorous swimming, and my left shoulder has never had full movement since. So I am instinctively conservative in what I try when paddling, and any twinge in my shoulders I know to be a warning sign that I've pushed myself too far.)

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Jim » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:14 am

I thought the high brace had been withdrawn from the coaching syllabus?
If not, these are my thoughts on it:

I disagree that leaning back makes your shoulder vulnerable, it is possible to lean back keeping your elbows and wrists all in a safe configuration, but it probably is easier to drift into a vulnerable configuration if you don't concentrate properly, say for example if your brain is overloaded trying to learn other things at the same time.

I have a problem with people who coach this stuff on still flat water and insist that their pupils sit bolt upright when bracing or sculling, it just isn't a realistic expectation.

What I would suggest you aim for is to set up and finish bolt upright, but as you pull on the paddle for support briefly lean back to unlock your hips and allow you push the boat upright.
So sitting upright, or even slightly forward, with one arm tucked in close to your hip and the other the other with your forearm roughly in front of your eyes (lower if possible), tip the boat holding that position until the paddle contacts the water - most of your body will also go in the water, which actually makes this easier. Try not to start pulling on the paddle until the blade touches down.
In the instant that the blade touches down you want to be hanging under the paddle shaft with that top arm still bent 90 degrees at the elbow, if the force of contact starts to straighten the arm, let go with that hand, capsize and swim - it is when the top arm goes straight that shoulder injuries can happen.
So once the blade contacts the water you are going to use the shaft for support to get the boat upright - it is easiest to describe it as pulling on the shaft, but actually you want the shaft to stay on the surface, you are actually going to use it as a reaction to allow you to push the boat back with your hips, this is easiest if you momentarily lean back and twist your hips upright at the same time and as soon as you feel the boat recovering scull forward with the blade to finish in the bolt upright, or even slightly forward position similar to how you started.

Now, small people often have trouble making the boat tip over unless they lean back a bit to help de-stabilse it - watch a small child try to tip a boat over and they often get their head in the water without it tilting at all, but even slightly built adults can struggle to get a boat to tip over whilst maintaining their training setup position, so within the parameters of protecting their shoulder, they will need to lean back a bit - but try to minimize how far as much as possible.

For getting the boat upright, the loss of stability when leaning back helps, it helps a lot, but finishing a recovery laying on the rear deck leaves you incredibly vulnerable to falling straight back in again, so if you do find you need to lean back a bit to get up, get into the practice of snapping forward again as soon as possible into a power stroke - if you progress into whitewater or surf it is really essential to get into position and start paddling again as soon as possible to stop yourself falling over again, or to regain control of where you are going.

As you progress to moving water, and as your confidence increases you should find you don't need to lean back as much, so have reducing the lean back as a goal from early on.

As you progress further you will learn other techniques for preventing a capsize and should almost never use a high brace again - as others have said, keeping your weight forward and keeping the blade active should prevent ever needing this outdated technique for real, and almost all times you do find yourself in a position to use it for real, it will be safer to turn the paddle 90 degrees so it slices into the water so you can capsize and setup for a roll avoiding taking a hit with your shoulder in a vulnerable position.

Other techniques, like rolling, can benefit from the pupil having grasped the basics of the high brace, which I presume is why it is still included, although all can be learned without a high brace, so I don't really know why it is still taught.

I did a rolling clinic a few weeks ago and encountered some kayakers who had never learned high braces or sculling before, we got 2/4 rolling and the other 2 close to rolling, using screw roll and leaning back temporarily to come up, without actually teaching them to high brace, although I found that part pretty difficult and had to learn some new coaching techniques from the others! Not bad since they had actually booked into a canoe rolling clinic due in part to misunderstanding, and in part due to someone not being sure we would find enough canoeists to cover the costs... (fortunately most of us can roll kayaks too).

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:50 pm

no-no wrote:I've been following EJ's video's on youtube and he says to brace with your weight back too....
If you're referring to the section of video that I *think* you're referring to, that's not a recommendation for something to do on a river, but a stepping stone to building up confidence of throwing yourself off-balance on a lake or in a pool. When you're confident you should be able to sit bolt-upright, throw yourself sideways, then as your body and head hits the water, briefly suspending their momentum, you would then brace back up.

It's a bit like when people use the balance brace when learning Greenland Rolling; another instance of something that's used as a stepping stone - a means to an end, not the end in itself.
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by sunstreaker » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:08 am

I have been practicing E.Js high brace in the pool for the past month, I found it works well and has improved my ability to roll from pawlata. The head weighing less when in the water seems to make sense. I understood leaning forward whilst sculling was advised as this reduced capsize potential much the same as that's why you lay back when rolling. Seems to work and make sense, if its bad practice I'm getting some bad habits.
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:43 pm

Jim wrote:I thought the high brace had been withdrawn from the coaching syllabus?
If not, these are my thoughts on it:

I disagree that leaning back makes your shoulder vulnerable, it is possible to lean back keeping your elbows and wrists all in a safe configuration, but it probably is easier to drift into a vulnerable configuration if you don't concentrate properly, say for example if your brain is overloaded trying to learn other things at the same time.

I have a problem with people who coach this stuff on still flat water and insist that their pupils sit bolt upright when bracing or sculling, it just isn't a realistic expectation...
Totally agree with Jim [yes, I did read it all Jim!]

I think there's a lot of bad press for the old high brace that is both right and wrong. Leaning forward is clearly a better way to be when bracing, although if you are leaning forward, then a simple deep forward stroke will normally do the job [just like the leaning ear dip boof].
If leaning forward and the paddle is behind you, then a reverse stroking low brace is an effective option.

BUT... what to do if say, you've been rag-dolled on your back deck half way down somewhere you really don't want to roll? [See pic below] Nothing wrong with a bit of old school bracing there. The shoulder isn't too vulnerable as long as the elbow is kept low and the torso is rotated enough.

Funnily enough I had my second go in a slalom boat in many years the other night – and I found myself doing a couple of old school high braces rather than rolling. Not sure if I was reverting back to 1980 or if it was the boat. Either way, it didn't seem to overly stress my shoulder which is pretty f'd up already.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by scottdog007 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:03 pm

In rolling I thought the other bad reason leaning back, is that it leaves your face exposed for being hit by rocks. Saying that I do use it.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by sunstreaker » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:06 pm

There is a series of bracing/rolling you tube videos by E.J Paddle Education as have been referenced. Any seasoned paddlers able to comment on whether the instruction is to be followed with caution ?
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:18 pm

I've not seen EJ's vids, but he seems to know what he's doing so I suspect it's all good. He taught his kids to paddle okay.

Regarding high brace or not – I'm a huge fan of anything that keeps you upright and safe.
Except for the constant repeated floundering bracing that is sometimes better to just roll and get up in control.
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Jim » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:01 am

scottdog007 wrote:In rolling I thought the other bad reason leaning back, is that it leaves your face exposed for being hit by rocks. Saying that I do use it.
Leaning back to finish a roll, how are you going to hit your face on rocks when you are almost up at the point where you lean back and your head is just under the surface?

Or are you talking about the dangers of the reverse screw roll which has a leaning back setup? Call me sensible but in shallow water I'd rather be lying along the deck than hanging down into the water where I am certain to take hits, as for my face being exposed, I don't see how that is possible when I am rotated so far with my torso and head that my face is pointing sideways and upwards out of the water.

No, the problem with leaning back when you roll, is that if you stay leaning back when you finish you will be unstable and most likely get knocked right back in again. I really see no problem with leaning back momentarily for the hip push over, as long as you immediately move forwards ready to take a power stroke, and I would encourage people to start practicing taking a stroke as soon as possible after rolling as early as possible in their rolling career. Many times after you roll in a rapid (or surf) you will need to get the paddle in and start accelerating the boat so as to get control back before the next wave/feature. This applies even if you have a roll which is done entirely in the forward sector - get used to finishing, and progressing immediately to a power stroke.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by MikeVeal » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:51 am

Agree with almost all of what's been said here.

I do a balance exercise with newbies to demonstrate why leaning back is bad for boat control. Those with doubts might like to try...

Sit bolt upright, hold the paddle with one hand at 90 degrees to the boat and as far out to the side as possible, so that the paddle is a great big counterweight trying to pull you over to the side. If you hold near the blade, the paddle should form a 2m extension to your arm. Turn the head to look towards the paddle. Now lean back as far as you can and try to repeat the exercise.

Yeah, leaning back was de-rigeur in the 80's. A lot of us learnt that way and having committed something like this to muscle memory so that the stroke just happens when needed without needing to think, trust me, its really really hard to unlearn! But I'm convinced that ditching this technique is helping me paddle better.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:51 am

The first lesson is of course, learn to pull on the paddle to get a good forward stroke, as there is considerably more support there than with any other stroke in white water.

The leaning back technique, as outlined by Bod above was all the rage of yester year. These days we have learnt, that is exposes the shoulder too much, and is to be avoided. Even as highlighted above it is a confidence stepping stone, this is not an ideal learning path, as when under pressure techniques learnt early on, come to the fore, so basically no.

If you fall over to the side with no speed, do a forward stroke. If you fall over to the side with speed, do a forward stroke. If you get knock back and then fall over, look to the point where your paddle will brace on the water, and then unwind your rotation to side forwards.

Like with most white water paddling, the mastery comes with good practise, and a fine use of the torso and upper body, the arms often frame the movement, and provide the connection between the blade and the boat.

In commenting about EJ's rolling & bracing videos, they will no doubt bring quick success to those following this method on flat water and in deep rivers, but for river running these methods have been repeatedly questioned and challenged due to there exposure of shoulders and ineffectiveness to regain balance in rapids.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:49 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote:...If you get knock back and then fall over, look to the point where your paddle will brace on the water, and then unwind your rotation to side forwards.

Like with most white water paddling, the mastery comes with good practise, and a fine use of the torso and upper body, the arms often frame the movement, and provide the connection between the blade and the boat.
I may be being a bit linguistically daft [probably due to too much time in N.America], but I can't make this out - how the first para above is different to a high brace? You are on your back deck, you put your blade in and basically try to sit up again as fast as possible while using it for support to prevent flipping?
Or are you saying use the back of the blade, not the front, to keep your weight over the paddle? If so isn't that a low brace, but just starting from a leaning back position because that's where you happened to be?

Your second para above –are you saying that it all comes from the torso and the arms don't do much apart from hold the paddles?

Sorry to ask for more...
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:00 pm

Jim wrote:Or are you talking about the dangers of the reverse screw roll which has a leaning back setup? Call me sensible but in shallow water I'd rather be lying along the deck than hanging down into the water where I am certain to take hits, as for my face being exposed, I don't see how that is possible when I am rotated so far with my torso and head that my face is pointing sideways and upwards out of the water.
I tried this ages ago in the pool as an experiment. One of those beach pools where the water slopes up to nothing.
Okay, without a BA etc, but I can get as shallow tucked forward as I can leaning back. There're really is not much difference in how much depth the end position takes up. I guess it's all about how you get there.
For me I have to disagree with Jim, I'd rather tuck forwards every time, but each to their own. I do envy the speed of back deck rollers though.
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Hakase » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:42 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote:...If you get knock back and then fall over, look to the point where your paddle will brace on the water, and then unwind your rotation to side forwards.

Like with most white water paddling, the mastery comes with good practise, and a fine use of the torso and upper body, the arms often frame the movement, and provide the connection between the blade and the boat.
I may be being a bit linguistically daft [probably due to too much time in N.America], but I can't make this out - how the first para above is different to a high brace? You are on your back deck, you put your blade in and basically try to sit up again as fast as possible while using it for support to prevent flipping?
Or are you saying use the back of the blade, not the front, to keep your weight over the paddle? If so isn't that a low brace, but just starting from a leaning back position because that's where you happened to be?

Your second para above –are you saying that it all comes from the torso and the arms don't do much apart from hold the paddles?

Sorry to ask for more...
As I understand it, he means that instead of leaning back, you twist your torso and look towards the point where you put the brace stroke in -- so you remain sitting relatively upright and off the back deck but with the paddle planted towards the stern. My guess is that this would be most effective with the back of the blade in a low-brace-esque position.

The old-school high brace, by contrast would be planting the paddle in the water, then throwing your weight towards it with a backwards lean to lower your CoM.

Vis-a-vis the backdeck/frontdeck rolls, whichever I use depends on what position I'm in. The fastest roll is invariably the one you're closest to the setup for -- which means if I'm on the backdeck, I'll use a reverse screw; if I'm on the frontdeck I'll use a normal screw roll. If I have a choice, I'll probably go for the forwards roll -- shoulders are in a better position throughout, and it's a bit more powerful...

The dangers of rolling on the backdeck I encountered firsthand on the Tryweryn the other week -- having mistimed a boof and destabilised myself, I opted for the backdeck (rodeo style) roll in the hope I could recover before an upcoming drop. This resulted in me violently throwing myself into the rock behind me that I hadn't noticed. As such, it's best avoided as a matter of preference in shallow water.

Nonetheless, if you're knocked onto the backdeck and find yourself already upside down in such a position, I fail to see how switching setups is anything foolish.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:56 pm

Cheers, yeah, I get that, but it was talking specifically about "if you get knocked back" - so are already in a leaning back position - what do you do then?
I think I am confused because both my earlier post and the start of Simon's, agree that it's best to do a forward stroke. And then if not, to do what you are suggesting, which is a low brace reverse stroke using back of blade?

Here's my issue. If [already] pretty much lying on the back deck on edge with the paddle blade behind you - the shoulder is way less exposed in a traditional high brace position with the elbow down, than it is trying to get the blade onto it's back, which involves getting the elbow up high leaving it in a position a bit like having your arm twisted behind your back by the big bully after school.
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by sunstreaker » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:04 pm

In E.J's high brace clips if your trying to get your head in the water at the same time as your power face you can only but do that by laying back slightly
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Hakase » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:51 pm

DaveBland wrote:Cheers, yeah, I get that, but it was talking specifically about "if you get knocked back" - so are already in a leaning back position - what do you do then?
I think I am confused because both my earlier post and the start of Simon's, agree that it's best to do a forward stroke. And then if not, to do what you are suggesting, which is a low brace reverse stroke using back of blade?

Here's my issue. If [already] pretty much lying on the back deck on edge with the paddle blade behind you - the shoulder is way less exposed in a traditional high brace position with the elbow down, than it is trying to get the blade onto it's back, which involves getting the elbow up high leaving it in a position a bit like having your arm twisted behind your back by the big bully after school.
To be honest, I don't have an answer for that... Perhaps a forward sweep with the stroke is nonetheless more effective? Your core strength is always best engaged when you're sitting up, so maybe sweep forwards with the blade on the climbing angle to recover this position and then make your 'hip flick'?

I'd be interested to hear what Simon has to say.
sunstreaker wrote:In E.J's high brace clips if your trying to get your head in the water at the same time as your power face you can only but do that by laying back slightly
That's blatantly untrue... There are no end of ways to put your head in the water at the same time as the power face, even while maintaining proper posture and your 'paddler's box'.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:01 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote:...If you get knock back and then fall over, look to the point where your paddle will brace on the water, and then unwind your rotation to side forwards.

Like with most white water paddling, the mastery comes with good practise, and a fine use of the torso and upper body, the arms often frame the movement, and provide the connection between the blade and the boat.
I may be being a bit linguistically daft [probably due to too much time in N.America], but I can't make this out - how the first para above is different to a high brace? You are on your back deck, you put your blade in and basically try to sit up again as fast as possible while using it for support to prevent flipping?
Or are you saying use the back of the blade, not the front, to keep your weight over the paddle? If so isn't that a low brace, but just starting from a leaning back position because that's where you happened to be?

Your second para above –are you saying that it all comes from the torso and the arms don't do much apart from hold the paddles?

Sorry to ask for more...
Hakase outlines the principal. In looking at the strike blade you rotation your torso. The unwinding of that rotation with the blade sweeping forward as a consequence, means that balance is re-established. Do not use the back of the blade.

The arms of course move, they are part of the transfer of power from the blade into the boat, but their movement should be to a lesser extent than one would assume. If during a paddle stroke one arm is extended, the other is likely to overly bent. The extension often occurs due to restricted torso and upper body rotation.

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:29 pm

Okay thanks!
So the first bit, i 'think' we are talking about the same thing. Sorry, I thought you meant the back of the blade.

Second point - hmmm... Third time in two weeks lack of torso rotation has been pointed my way - maybe time to look at some vid of myself...
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Jim » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:57 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Jim wrote:Or are you talking about the dangers of the reverse screw roll which has a leaning back setup? Call me sensible but in shallow water I'd rather be lying along the deck than hanging down into the water where I am certain to take hits, as for my face being exposed, I don't see how that is possible when I am rotated so far with my torso and head that my face is pointing sideways and upwards out of the water.
I tried this ages ago in the pool as an experiment. One of those beach pools where the water slopes up to nothing.
Okay, without a BA etc, but I can get as shallow tucked forward as I can leaning back. There're really is not much difference in how much depth the end position takes up. I guess it's all about how you get there.
For me I have to disagree with Jim, I'd rather tuck forwards every time, but each to their own. I do envy the speed of back deck rollers though.
I use all kinds of rolls as appropriate, I guess it's just that I more often fall in close to a reverse screw setup than close to a regular screw setup, now, does this tally with the rest of this discussion or what? I don't seem to fall in leaning forward very often, that must be because all that stuff about staying forward and active works, and it is only when I get caught in a bad position that I fall in and need a roll....

What I was getting at is that going through a dangling straight down position to get into a forward tuck is not something I would choose to do - if a reverse screw fails for some reason I usually transition at the half up point (when my body is along the surface) and end up tucked forward for the next attempt, and if things are going really badly and I have depth and time I will sometimes stop and re-organize myself to a left side screw roll because that is my strongest roll, that is pretty rare though.

Paddling C1or OC1 the only roll I can do starts and finishes with a forward tuck....

I guess the screw roll is basically out of modern coaching then and everything is based on combat and CtoC type rolls?

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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:27 pm

Blimey, I'm sounding like I'm a fan of leaning back. Not at all.
I'm fully with leaning forward as the way to go all the time. In reality though, I sometimes do find myself in a less than ideal back deck position. Need stronger abs I guess.

I confess to always using the standard sweep roll. It's all I have ever done or needed. So far only one face-full of rock on the Green, when I forgot to tuck fast enough - I blame early season rustiness.

Going to go study my torso rotation - or lack of...
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by sunstreaker » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:00 am

Hakase wrote:
DaveBland wrote:Cheers, yeah, I get that, but it was talking specifically about "if you get knocked back" - so are already in a leaning back position - what do you do then?
I think I am confused because both my earlier post and the start of Simon's, agree that it's best to do a forward stroke. And then if not, to do what you are suggesting, which is a low brace reverse stroke using back of blade?

Here's my issue. If [already] pretty much lying on the back deck on edge with the paddle blade behind you - the shoulder is way less exposed in a traditional high brace position with the elbow down, than it is trying to get the blade onto it's back, which involves getting the elbow up high leaving it in a position a bit like having your arm twisted behind your back by the big bully after school.
To be honest, I don't have an answer for that... Perhaps a forward sweep with the stroke is nonetheless more effective? Your core strength is always best engaged when you're sitting up, so maybe sweep forwards with the blade on the climbing angle to recover this position and then make your 'hip flick'?

I'd be interested to hear what Simon has to say.
sunstreaker wrote:In E.J's high brace clips if your trying to get your head in the water at the same time as your power face you can only but do that by laying back slightly
That's blatantly untrue... There are no end of ways to put your head in the water at the same time as the power face, even while maintaining proper posture and your 'paddler's box'.
Have you viewed these clips?
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Re: High Bracing on the back deck

Post by Hakase » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:04 am

sunstreaker wrote:
Have you viewed these clips?
No. It seemed like you were saying the only way to put your head in the water along with the power face is to lean back -- I don't need to watch a clip to know that's not true...

If that's not what you were trying to say, I do apologise.

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