The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Inland paddling
User avatar
Kayak-Bloke
Posts: 1444
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: (Ever Wet) South Wales

The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Kayak-Bloke »

Are a complete waste of time because, with half decent technique, you should be able to roll any kayak easily... Discuss

User avatar
Randy Fandango
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:10 pm
Location: London/Kent/Somewhere flat and dry

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Randy Fandango »

And therefore they're all potentially easy to roll?
Which makes the statement true :-)
-- Bear in mind the blurb on an ad is usually there to help sell the kayak so that might encourage someone to part with their money.
Giles

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Mark Dixon »

My lad says that to me Nige, but he can do about 25 hand rolls back to back before getting dizzy. Without doubt though if you have an average technique there are easier and harder boats to roll. The hardest I have found is the Blistik Mystik, being pretty square with lots of volume in front, I havent rolled one in a few years but the Everest took a fair bit of effort in a pool, havent been so keen on the Mamba either. But at the other end my 9R is the easiest boat I have ever rolled as its similar to a torpedo. I struggled with a Raptor but the Veloc was dead easy, I am sure a lot is also how tall you are and how long your arms are, our club has a lady paddler who gets her paddle about 8 inches out of water with ease, but she is about 6ft 2. A short arse like me struggles with a bigger boat.

Mark

sprintpaddler
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:13 pm
Location: SW

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by sprintpaddler »

Admittedly my roll ain`t the best, but I`d say there are boats that are
easier to roll than others. A Shiva ( narrow round bottom & no rails )
is easier for me to roll than a SuperFun ( wide flat bottom with rails ) as
an example.

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14134
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Jim »

Ah, but a rotobat was easy to roll, it was also easy to capsize.....

But such terms are completely subjective and any established boater is going to ignore them - they are just there to suck in beginners really, in particular those beginners who have got it into their head that learning to roll as both the most important thing and is difficult. Chances are the seller is only just past that stage themselves.

Yew
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Yew »

Sprint boats are easy to roll, I'm very good at the first half...

Franky
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Franky »

I've only rolled river runners, but I haven't noticed a significant difference between them in terms of how easy they are to roll.

Having rolled a GT 7.8, I expected to find a Karnali (bigger and heavier) more difficult, but it wasn't.

I do find that if the outfitting is very tight (i.e. the footrests are far back), I struggle to roll because I can't raise my knee any higher in order to spin the boat. But that's adjustable of course!

sundaykayaker
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:42 pm

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by sundaykayaker »

My First boat LL hoss was difficult to roll. My next boat Jefa was a bit easier. The Mamba wase easier still. The Tuna my current boat is even better.
O wait. It might be me.. who is improving ... or not ? I did panic for a day when I could not roll at all resulting in one swim and 8 T Rescuse.
Following day tried again. It just clicked. Thank the river Gods. The Boss women would have killed me If I had gone to get anothr boat.
Moral of the story. Correct incentive matters and you will be able to roll anything. :)

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by TechnoEngineer »

A boat that's shaped like a log is going to be hard to roll. A boat that shaped like a banana (e.g. Greenland-style kayaks) is going to be easy to roll.

The downside of having a boat that's easier to roll is that the roll itself could become weaker.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

Teaman
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:01 pm

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Teaman »

My nordcapp. Not easy to roll after rolling my stomper due to needing a different style of roll. (ocean cockpit restricts movement in my sweep)
my dagger juice. Easier to roll with my left than my stomper but harder to roll neatly as i tend to kick the front up and in low level water the back end jams in the ground at times which throws my coordination out.
the stomper. thats very hard to get into a position to roll unless I completely mess up and then due to being completely messed up I usually mess up my roll.
I'd say rolling in relative.
My dagger approach was ok to roll as long as you could get it past vertical due to it being as wide as a house. and you slopped about in the cockpit.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3659
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by DaveBland »

sundaykayaker wrote:Correct incentive matters and you will be able to roll anything. :)
Exactly. I've spouted off about this before, but get wound up by the "I can roll in a pool but not a river" train of thought.
A roll is a roll.

I watched my bud roll up first time in super aerated water at the base of the Cheakamus falls the other day.
With a dislocated shoulder.

There's incentive.
dave

User avatar
James Hartley
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:49 pm
Location: North West

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by James Hartley »

I guess you could also add the line; "Boofs like a dream" in to this topic discussion............
The more apparently complex an act, the more vital it is to search until you find its inner simplicity
Feed the rat

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14134
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Jim »

or "has the usual scratches but is otherwise like new....."

MikeVeal
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 10:40 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by MikeVeal »

Try rolling one of those inflatable things. As you get to close to the 90 point the boat hull slides sideways away from you, giving your blade nothing to react against...
Badly worded, but try it and you'll see what I mean.

Franky
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Franky »

DaveBland wrote: Exactly. I've spouted off about this before, but get wound up by the "I can roll in a pool but not a river" train of thought.
A roll is a roll.
There are all sorts of reasons why rolling in white water is more difficult than in a pool, for those who aren't paddling gods:
- Turbulent water pulling your arms in all directions, which can make it difficult even to establish a setup, let alone manage a roll.
- Trying to roll on the wrong side, so that you can get pushed back down by the oncoming current. Perhaps I am an imbecile, but I still do this.
- Less room for manoeuvre wearing a buoyancy aid and cold water gear. The pool we practise in doesn't let you wear kit that has been used in rank rivers.
- Cold water shock. I don't think it's coincidence that my roll success rate has improved since the winter.
- Panic. I don't know anyone who didn't experience disorientation and (at least mild) panic when they first tried rolling in white water. Perhaps you didn't, but that doesn't mean it's not a normal stage for most people.
- Lack of air because you're taken by surprise and don't take a deep breath.
- Only having practised 360-degree rolls, and relying on the momentum from when you went under, in coming back up.

Of course, all of these are circumstances you can master or mitigate, but they represent real additional physical challenges that you aren't faced with in the pool. White water rolling is more than just a head game. It is genuinely more difficult than rolling in a pool or on flat water, and I don't know any beginners who've found otherwise.
I watched my bud roll up first time in super aerated water at the base of the Cheakamus falls the other day.
With a dislocated shoulder.

There's incentive.
So would you expect someone to be able to do that, having only practised rolls in a pool? Do you think your pal could have managed this feat on his first white water trip?

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Mark Dixon »

Franky, I actually find it easier to roll in moderate water than flat water, I find I can move around easier. You are definately right that beginners will learn to roll in flatwater, have a good roll and then have to relearn it in fluffy water, its just a head game and shock but once they are relaxed with paddling "a roll is a roll" I've watched friends get out way too quick and I've worked with club paddlers in holes where the consequences are minimal and once relaxed they've agreed with me its just as easy....all in the mind

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3659
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by DaveBland »

Franky, I hear what you are saying, and all those are indeed factors that influence things.
But, especially in G3 and below [I'm assuming no roll, so not grade 4/5], they are all 'details' that if you have a strong pool roll shouldn't matter. They are doubts and excuses in your head, rather than significant hurdles that will stop you rolling.

It's all in the staying calm and getting set up properly and quickly before you start the roll.
97.352% [give or take a bit] of failed WW rolls are due to rushing and not being properly set up before starting.

We can agree to disagree [but I am right. Ner, ner, na, ner, ner].

And yes of course, my bud had a year or two of experience to do that [come to think of it, I've hardly ever seen him roll], but it does go to demonstrate that when you need to, you can, despite a few minor inconveniences.

EDIT: Shoulda said – Imean this in the most positive of ways and am going on about it because I genuinely hope it will help someone grab hold of rolling in WW.

Because... the confidence that comes from a bomber roll is the BIGGEST factor in getting better on WW and more importantly the biggest factor in making it more fun.
dave

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14134
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Jim »

Franky, you just need the confidence to pause and take a moment when you capsize on the river. Once you get that you will quickly learn to feel the current and work out which side to roll, and you will then find that as long as your basic technique is sound, it will be easier to roll on that side than it is in the pool.

Of course once you come up you have to clear your eyes and get back in the game ASAP, and if you have rolled up in boily water you may need to stop yourself going straight back in again, but if you have worked out which side to roll, you should find you can get much better lift on the paddle in moving water than in flat water.

Franky
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Franky »

Jim wrote:Franky, you just need the confidence to pause and take a moment when you capsize on the river. Once you get that you will quickly learn to feel the current and work out which side to roll, and you will then find that as long as your basic technique is sound, it will be easier to roll on that side than it is in the pool.
I know, but I still haven't got a "feel" for which is the right side - I can't tell until I try to get my paddle out of the water and can't. So I'll try rolling on the other side and recently I've been succeeding, mostly - but I would like to be able to get it right first time.

This is what I mean when I say that rolling on a river is more than just a head game - you need some experience of how moving water behaves, and you can't learn that in a pool.

It's not that I panic - if I'm upside-down on a drop I'll wait until I'm through it before trying a roll. But sometimes things don't calm down after the drop as much as you hoped they would, and then you have to go for it.

Franky
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Franky »

DaveBland wrote:Franky, I hear what you are saying, and all those are indeed factors that influence things.
But, especially in G3 and below [i'm assuming no roll, so not grade 4/5], they are all 'details' that if you have a strong pool roll shouldn't matter. They are doubts and excuses in your head, rather than significant hurdles that will stop you rolling.
I'm not sure the word "excuses" helps people who are struggling with real-world rolls. But I see where you are coming from.

While it may be true that the crucial thing is learning how to stay calm, my own experience of learning to roll in white water has made it clear that there are numerous other factors that I would not necessarily regard as mere "details".

The process of learning to roll consistently in white water is fresh in my memory, as I've only been "practising" it on a regular basis since Christmas (since I joined Lee Valley). In many ways I've had to "re-learn" rolling; the "details" don't feel like details to me. I dare say if my technique were better, the transition might have been quicker; but still, from talking to other people my experience is far from unusual - rather it seems the norm. For what it's worth, my grade 3 roll is currently about 90% successful.
It's all in the staying calm and getting set up properly and quickly before you start the roll.
97.352% [give or take a bit] of failed WW rolls are due to rushing and not being properly set up before starting.
This is true, but there are circumstances where it's difficult to set up on the right side at all. My 2 most recent failed rolls were at the Lee Valley Legacy, both at the same spot. There's a bit after the last stopper where a turbulent eddy pushes you towards the curved bank at the top of the eddy, and you get stuck there; the "correct" side to set up is with your paddle on the side of the bank - but the water is pushing you against the bank with enough force to stop you from having room to swing your paddle.

I suppose the correct technique in that situation is to push yourself away from the bank and then quickly get your roll in before you get pushed towards the bank again. But this is all stuff you can't learn in a pool.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3659
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by DaveBland »

Franky wrote:I'm not sure the word "excuses" helps people who are struggling with real-world rolls. But I see where you are coming from....there are numerous other factors that I would not necessarily regard as mere "details".
I use this language, not to be derisory or mean – It's how I think of them in my head – and ultimately what I'm hoping they will become in yours [or anyone else struggling to achieve a bomber ww roll]. It's about having a 100% determination to get yourself in that set up position, no matter what. It's about refusing to even consider getting out and swimming. You are over, you slam yourself into position, not letting pesky things like walls, rocks, current stop you. You are a rolling animal – tuck or die – do it, do it now –Grrrrr.

Then there is the wait and calm bit. Paddle's up, you are protected, you can hold that position. Roll when you are ready.

I agree that working out which side with the current is tricky, but would argue that it doesn't make much difference. As soon as you are moving with the current, it's all the same speed, negating the flow effect. The current does make a difference to how easy it is to get your body round and paddles in place to set up*. But this is what I'm on about above. Your core and shoulders are well strong enough to tuck against the current and in most cases won't it won't stop you.

Get your body round and paddles in place to set up – there is one other factor that comes into this all which does come down to experience. It's knowing when you are going to go over and accepting it. The endless high braces, dragging on back deck scenario, that happens when desperately trying not to flip, makes it way harder to get into position from [Unless back deck rolling, but that's a whole different game].
It's a bit of a catch 22 as you are more likely to accept you are going to roll, making your setup easier, if you are confident you can roll.

It's about speed of reaction. The gap between "Woah, I'm going over" and slamming that set up in place is the key. While you are hesitating, all the 'exuses' have a chance to work at your confidence. Once you know you are flipping, no other thought or focus should be in your head other than tuck and set up.

Good luck!
dave

User avatar
Kayak-Bloke
Posts: 1444
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: (Ever Wet) South Wales

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Kayak-Bloke »

As is often the way with UKRGB we've gone slightly off topic but who would change that!
I have heard and indeed experienced myself a pivitol moment during my paddling journey where during an inverted moment something inside me clicked and I decided that this capsize would not result in a swim and in that moment I became relaxed and calm and able to focus on the act of rolling.
That moment. The moment when you decide not to swim, that's the hardest thing about rolling. Because it is very hard to teach, in most it just happens one day..

As for my original post. Yes some boats are easier to roll.
However I maintain that if your technique is sound you should be able to roll any boat that fits you, easily.
Thus as stated. 'Easy to roll' is pointless subjective stuff that might appeal to those new to the world paddling but ultimately is pointless..

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Franky you need to get yourself down to Hurley. That will sort your roll out.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

Hakase
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:00 pm

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Hakase »

Franky wrote:
Jim wrote:Franky, you just need the confidence to pause and take a moment when you capsize on the river. Once you get that you will quickly learn to feel the current and work out which side to roll, and you will then find that as long as your basic technique is sound, it will be easier to roll on that side than it is in the pool.
I know, but I still haven't got a "feel" for which is the right side
Here's a tip. Hold your hands out in front of you, fingers outstretched palms facing away. One hand will make an L shape, the other won't.

The hand that doesn't is the one on your right side.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3659
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by DaveBland »

If not sure which is you natural side to roll on, a trick is to look at which side you get in your boat from the bank when it's in the water. The theory is that that's the side you'll roll on as it's the one you feel happiest supporting yourself holding onto the edge with.
May be total bollox though...

Oh, and sorry about post deviation.

For what it's worth, when choosing a boat, if it was noticeably harder to roll for any reason, I wouldn't go with it.
But I wouldn't seek outran easy to roll one specifically.
So no it shouldn't matter. Maybe if the ad said "not a dog o roll"...
dave

gp.girl
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by gp.girl »

DaveBland wrote: It's about speed of reaction. The gap between "Woah, I'm going over" and slamming that set up in place is the key. While you are hesitating, all the 'exuses' have a chance to work at your confidence. Once you know you are flipping, no other thought or focus should be in your head other than tuck and set up.

Good luck!
It was pointed out on one trip that a lot of the learners were setting up to roll before they even got their heads wet. Even me!? Although I think it was coincidence and rubbish bracing in my case. If your paddle ends up there you're going to fall over :( and I had even less idea how to roll so it couldn't be that.

Oddly enough the more i think about rolling/paddle set up/paddle angle the less chance I have of getting anywhere. So my best is 2 out of 3 and I still have no idea how I did it! Normally about 1 in 10.

Bank test works for me.
I can roll :)

Franky
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Franky »

TechnoEngineer wrote:Franky you need to get yourself down to Hurley. That will sort your roll out.
I'm not hung up on my roll. As I said, I've managed 10 rolls for every swim recently at LV... Of course 11 capsizes in an hour isn't great going, but I tell myself it's because I'm pushing myself :)

But the very fact that my white water roll has improved suggests I've been learning things from white water that I didn't learn in flat water. (My flat water roll was 100% on both sides before I went to LV.) I can't say what it is I've learned exactly; much of it is probably subconscious. Certainly getting over panicking was the biggest hurdle, but the fact that I sometimes fail to roll suggests I still haven't completely nailed the technique. And you can get away with imperfect technique in flat water, where conditions are predictable, but in white water sometimes you'll be caught out.

Another thing is that sometimes I just feel knackered towards the end of a session and that affects both my strength and my coordination. I'm trying to paddle smarter, not harder.

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14134
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by Jim »

Coming into summer, Chertsey would be a better plan than Hurley, that's where I bombproofed my roll many years ago.

Poke the nose of your boat into the chute and there is a 90% chance you'll finish upside down, but unlike Hurley or LV it gets calm quite quickly (although flowing) so there are no other distractions to foil you. And it's a much shorter easier swim if you fail.

User avatar
AS Watersports
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:15 pm
Location: Exeter
Contact:

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by AS Watersports »

I've been thinking about this.

So....

All gases are light (weight)

Some gases are heavier than others.

Therefore some gases are known to be heavy.

The phrase is relevant to the subject.

So on the logic that "all kayaks are easy to roll"

We can agree that some are easier to roll?

If so. I think it makes sense to say "this kayak is easy to roll"

I think a well fitting Perception ARC is easier roll than a well fitting Pyrnaha G3. I think the Arc is easy boat to roll.

Thoughts?

User avatar
hbcanoekayak
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:09 pm
Contact:

Re: The words 'Easy to roll' on a kayak for sale ad...

Post by hbcanoekayak »

I agree with AS above, i do think that there are easier and more difficult boats to roll, especially to people just getting into it.

Having sat and watched more than a few rolling sessions on the lake, i have always noticed that generally people struggle with kayaks such as the G3 and even the GTX more than they do with Mambas, Karnalis and other things like the Pyranha Fusion.

I have always put it down to the wider, flatter top deck acting like an initially stable hull would when it is on flat water. Whilst your higher performance, higher volume boats tend to be less flat on the top for shedding and resurfacing which is like comparing to a slightly more rounded hull.

I think this makes sense?

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”