Flat landing drops

Inland paddling
Post Reply
User avatar
banzer
Posts: 3307
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:37 pm
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Flat landing drops

Post by banzer » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:33 pm

If some dumb-ass occasional paddler who was pushing 40 but still fancied themselves going off waterfalls, was to inadvertently do a flat landing, would the boat / hull shape make the slightest bit of difference to the outcome? i.e. is a displacement hull significantly better at cushioning a landing than a planing hull, and thus less likely to lead to back injury, or does it make no real difference?

Thanks

P.S. yes I'm still in the market for a new creek boat...!
A. Boater wrote:It's all Pierre's fault
www.neviscanoes.co.uk

User avatar
davebrads
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:42 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by davebrads » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:53 pm

I would say yes, just on the basis that I haven't heard of anyone ending up in hospital after landing Right-angle flat for quite a while now, and I have assumed it's because everyone's paddling creek boats these days.

I know I landed Right-angle very flat once years ago, that was when I had a Stunt 300 which had a v-shaped hull (or double concave as they used to call it). I certainly felt the landing, but it didn't do me any injury.
it's not a playboat, it's a river runner

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by DaveBland » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:27 pm

No scientific grounding to this response, but yes it makes a big difference. But not as much as correct landing posture. It's kind of a balance, leaning forward and not losing your nose on the deck thing. I think if you are upright with spine over impact, it's gonna smart whatever. if in doubt, bang it on edge - I landed Punchbowl Falls in Oregon very flat the other year and luckily managed to get it on edge enough to put a plate sized bruise on my thigh but back was okay.

Nice rounded Stomper for me.
dave

Joe L
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: Battle
Has thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by Joe L » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:03 am

I have heard various people claim different boats give bigger hits etc. But never felt a huge amount of difference between boats myself or seen much reason for it. Body position and boat angle is what makes all the difference really.

I injured my back years back on right angle, in a creek boat. Just didnt know what I was doing really and landed sitting upright. Since then I have boofed loads of much higher drops and taken the occasional big hit but nothing too bad. Definitely agree with Dave about if in doubt bang it on edge, has worked for me a few times and not as tricky/risky as stomping. It does ruin photos a bit though.

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by Jim » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:12 pm

It will reduce the impact a bit as some of the water at the edges will be pushed laterally rather than directly resisting the vertical motion, but the key parameters are the all up weight of your boat, speed of impact and the time it takes to stop.
Both boats will hit with the same energy but rounded bottom will take a fraction of a second longer to reach a stop so the peak power will be slightly reduced.

That's the theory covered, what you need to know is if the difference is enough to feel, and for that I have absolutely no idea. I think the effect would be minimal and that your weight and the height of the drop is going to make much more difference. Which should highlight a related point - the critical height for landing flat is going to depend on both your hull type and your all up weight, one person might get another metre and someone else only a centimetre difference between the same 2 boats - who knows?

User avatar
Poke
Posts: 4864
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:35 pm
Location: Wigan
Been thanked: 14 times
Contact:

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by Poke » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:28 pm

Jim wrote:I think the effect would be minimal and that your weight and the height of the drop is going to make much more difference. Which should highlight a related point - the critical height for landing flat is going to depend on both your hull type and your all up weight, one person might get another metre and someone else only a centimetre difference between the same 2 boats - who knows?
The aeration of the water is going to make an even bigger difference. Aeration can vary hugely if you land even only a foot to one side or the other of a boil line. In fact, even landing in exactly the same place and the aeration can very from one second to the next! Not that any of this helps the original poster though!

I'd say that there will be a difference between the two, but it's probably not likely to make a great deal of difference - especially because very few creek boats these days have a pancake flay hull. Get a boat you feel happy paddling and you'll probably be less likely to land flat in it anyway :-)
Uniyaker - Uni expeditions
Team Pyranha - My adventures

User avatar
box2k2
Posts: 456
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:34 pm

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by box2k2 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:15 pm

Poke wrote:I'd say that there will be a difference between the two, but it's probably not likely to make a great deal of difference... ...Get a boat you feel happy paddling and you'll probably be less likely to land flat in it anyway :-)
This ^^^

While I've no direct evidence, I've heard more than enough stories that I'm not convinced that simply paddling a Nomad will make landing flat OK. If the hit is big enough to break you in one boat, all other things being equal I reckon it'll break you in any boat.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by DaveBland » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:44 pm

The noise a flat hull [burn] makes landing flat is f-ing loud.

Sorry there's no sound with the pic.

Image
dave

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by Jim » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:54 pm

That's part of what I was talking about with the round hull parting the water a little compared to flat, I was also wondering if part of that is the the air is displaced more easily as a round hull lands and ends up compressed and exploding when a flat hull lands, but another consideration is that a flat panel will vibrate more so will tend to make a louder noise, since noise is nothing more than a vibration and the bigger the displacement the louder it will sound.....

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by DaveBland » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:57 pm

On the up-side, the loud bang alerts all around to your incredible boof-tasm.
dave

User avatar
ion
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:55 am
Location: California
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by ion » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:31 pm

DaveBland wrote:On the up-side, the loud bang alerts all around to your incredible boof-tasm.
...and masks the sound of your spine exploding!.....Seriously, original poster, there is a difference between different hull designs in modern creek boats w.r.t how they land a perfect flat boof, but they are all "safe" or "potentially lethal" depending on your perspective and ability. The best advice is Dave's early advice; learn good technique and posture. Go watch a few 'Substantial' (https://vimeo.com/substantialmedia) movies if you want to see some exceptional boofs of tall drops with corresponding exceptional technique...note the great lengths they go to so that they are torso curled forward, spines NOT aligned with the hit they take. With destroyed lumbar vertebrae, this is a topic close to my heart.

Nick_
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:49 pm

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by Nick_ » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:54 am

I've landed right angle flat several times with a flat bottomed boat and had no problems, landed another waterfall flat in a nomad and my l2 vertebrae decided it didn't like being in one piece anymore.

The boat might make a difference all things being equal, but I'd probably go for technique over boat choice in the future!

I can also attest to the noise of said landing being very loud...:-(
See you on the water!

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by Jim » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:39 pm

I've landed right angle flat too, but it was in medium flow and I landed in the foam pile, my boat (topo) transitioned straight into the back loop so I never even felt it land.
The problem is when people aim to land it flat in flat in low water and clear the hole completely landing on the green water beyond - in that situation you might as well seat drop 25 feet onto concrete, you probably wouldn't do any more damage....

My biggest flat green landing was the 12 footer on Brush Creek in California in my Glide - we identified it correctly and scouted it and did everything possible to try and make the nose dive, but both of us landed flat in our playboats and really felt it - fortunately no damage done.

I do sometimes worry when talking to relative newbies at the waterfall game that they go out of their way to boof everything - I'm sure there are a few people out there who really don't understand that sometimes it just isn't appropriate, and even amongst the majority who do I can't remember seeing anyone specifically practicing pencilling drops....

User avatar
freddie
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:30 am
Location: Everywhere

Re: Flat landing drops

Post by freddie » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:57 am

So much of it depends on the drop, and then the landing technique. Boat shape makes as good as no difference compared to the rest.
I've been boofing 50 footers out here in Chile and having softer landings than off 6 foot drops, and 20 foot plus into green water no problems with good technique.
Get a boat you like to paddle and practice getting a good stomp, it makes landing a big boof much softer.
Lee Royle
Adventure Blog

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”