If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

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If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by morsey » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:42 pm

https://vimeo.com/108914671

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Lancs_lad » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:05 pm

I think she should step down a grade, clearly in over her head there.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by DaveBland » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:19 pm

Lancs_lad wrote:I think she should step down a grade, clearly in over her head there.
Yes, just another example of why women should stick to sports like netball. Fancy swimming there... honestly!
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Paddle-Duo » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:54 pm

And no doubt if it had been a guy in the video, you would all have probably said something like "...good on him for trying, but hard luck on taking a swim...." ??

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Hakase » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:26 pm

Paddle-Duo wrote:And no doubt if it had been a guy in the video, you would all have probably said something like "...good on him for trying, but hard luck on taking a swim...." ??
I'm not sure if you didn't pick up on the insincerity here... As far as I can tell, that's exactly the attitude the other users are poking fun at.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Franky » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:44 pm

Hakase wrote: I'm not sure if you didn't pick up on the insincerity here... As far as I can tell, that's exactly the attitude the other users are poking fun at.
I was going to post a self-righteous reply, until I watched the video and concluded that "Fancy swimming there" could only be ironic. (Difficult to tell on the Interweb these days: I've made the opposite mistake of assuming stupid comments were ironic when in fact they were deadly serious.)

(PS Being pedantic, I think you meant "irony", not "insincerity" - it wasn't meant to be deceptive, which would be implied by "insincerity". Sorry, I write for a living...)

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by DaveBland » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:50 pm

I guess sarcasm and irony don't translate so well on the web [ah, so that's what smileys are for?]

I'm not sure that there are many paddlers who would be that blatantly sexist though are there? I always had paddlers down as pretty liberal types generally.

PS, She's a swimmer, but pretty smoking though eh?
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Hakase » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:52 pm

Franky wrote:
Hakase wrote: I'm not sure if you didn't pick up on the insincerity here... As far as I can tell, that's exactly the attitude the other users are poking fun at.
I was going to post a self-righteous reply, until I watched the video and concluded that "Fancy swimming there" could only be ironic. (Difficult to tell on the Interweb these days: I've made the opposite mistake of assuming stupid comments were ironic when in fact they were deadly serious.)

(PS Being pedantic, I think you meant "irony", not "insincerity" - it wasn't meant to be deceptive, which would be implied by "insincerity". Sorry, I write for a living...)
Irony would have been better, it's true. Insincerity doesn't necessarily imply an intent to deceive -- merely that what is said does not represent the true (or sincere) opinions or intent of the speaker. That said, it's not usually applied to sarcasm or irony; I just used it to mean that the posters did not literally mean what they said.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Poke » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:12 pm

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by sundaykayaker » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:53 pm

Well made video. All these. Symantec about you ment to say or didn't say. Did u like the video. Yes or no. I liked it.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Lancs_lad » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:02 am

sundaykayaker wrote:Well made video. All these. Symantec about you ment to say or didn't say. Did u like the video. Yes or no. I liked it.
Not really, I think the whole booty beer is pointless and childish.

She moans a lot on her fb page about females not getting enough exposure (she has had some mainstream exposure in norway). Is a booty beer really the image that will entice people in?

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Lancs_lad wrote:Not really, I think the whole booty beer is pointless and childish.
I have doen a whole bunch of rescuing and also of course been rescued, and find demanding a penance for the mistake odd. I appreciate that the event can draw a line under the matter for a the group dynamics, yet the focusing on the swimmer plays into the hands of them being a victim, potentially "knowing their place in their group". There is little positivity that can come from this kind of group regime, although common place and for sure my comments we will not be welcomed in some quarters. Ultimately the bootie beer or swim beers so often sourced in camaraderie and banter, can be highly destructive to the person who came out of their boat and disruptive to the groups effectiveness in making sound judgements when things start to go wrong. Swims so often come from minor mistakes, normally the swim alone is penance for the paddler, to reenforce this is seldom a motivational prompt but a dark mark to the paddlers impression of their day, and in heightening this, does little to easy their burden. Booties Beer, no thanks.

During my Uni days, I recall a way we avoided the swim beer matter, especially the newly intermediates with I'll roll or I'll rather die approach to running rapids, would start to demand beers. Often boosting that they never brought beer when on their Alps trip, as freshers wold fund it all. This negativity was stamped out, with a little point system, 1 point for a roll, 2 for technical assistance and 3 for a swim. The outcome from this, was that for most of the intermediates and beginner, the playing field was levelled, and amongst the club a more positive camaraderie emerged, and after the Alps trip, those free beer drinking intermediates were often those at the week that contributed to the high points beer purchasing. Beer aside, the important is that we had turned around a negative dynamic, where if you swam it no longer became a big deal in the group. This may not be the best solution, but at the time, it proved a good option.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by TonyM » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm

I seem to remember in Meridian we used to 'charge' 50p for roll, £1 a swim on trips away - alps etc. At the end of the trip it all went into a local charity box.

I'd far rather do that than drink out of my boot, depending on water quality of coourse.

Imagine doing booty that at HPP -certainly an incentive to roll. Roll or puke.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by DaveBland » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:07 pm

I agree with Simon that booties can have a negative effect on the group dynamic, but there is a flip side to this argument.
And I'm guessing maybe the reason for it in the first place.

How many times have we seen and read on here about paddlers who as soon as they flip, immediately bail without any attempt at a roll? If the swim itself is not a deter ant, maybe the bootie is enough to make them consider staying in their boat and giving it a go?

In theory, if the swim's inconsequential, then the bootie may help, and if the swim is bad, then the bootie really doesn't register due to the relief of getting out okay.

That said, I'd rather drink my river-cooled beers straight from the can.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Franky » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:35 am

DaveBland wrote:I agree with Simon that booties can have a negative effect on the group dynamic, but there is a flip side to this argument.
And I'm guessing maybe the reason for it in the first place.

How many times have we seen and read on here about paddlers who as soon as they flip, immediately bail without any attempt at a roll? If the swim itself is not a deter ant, maybe the bootie is enough to make them consider staying in their boat and giving it a go?

In theory, if the swim's inconsequential, then the bootie may help, and if the swim is bad, then the bootie really doesn't register due to the relief of getting out okay.
Can't say I agree.

Nobody with a consistent roll would opt for a swim. The only reason people swim is either that they're not confident with their roll, or that their attempt to roll has failed and they are overcome by the need for air in their lungs. Not unreasonable, surely.

Swimming is unpleasant and exhausting, aside from being an inconvenience to the group. But can be a while before a WW beginner trusts themselves to try to roll in white water. If my club had compounded the humiliation and physical misery of swimming with a forfeit, I'd have stopped going on white water trips altogether, and never got as far as even attempting to roll.

Rolling in white water is hit-and-miss to start with. Firstly, unlike in flat water, you have to spend a moment working out which side you are to the current, because otherwise there's a 50/50 chance that your attempt to roll on your "strong" side will fail. Secondly, if you DO successfully roll in continuous rapids, when you come up you're not going to be anywhere, or pointing in any direction, that you planned. Before you know it, you can be pushed under again. These days most of my white water swims are after a successful roll that is immediately followed by another capsize. It's not down to a lack of the will to roll, but trusting my lungs' insistence that they need air NOW, not in ten seconds' time.

Having said that... I had the dubious distinction of winning an award at my club for my tally of swims. And it did get me thinking that I really needed to nail my roll. The important thing was that the award was presented in a humorous spirit and it wasn't humiliating... But I certainly didn't want to win it a second time. So maybe there is something in booty after all, as long as it's done in a friendly way. And of course not everyone would respond in the same way, either - some may laugh it off, while others feel it adds insult to injury.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by DaveBland » Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:00 am

Hey Franky, I don't think we are disagreeing!
i hear everything you say. But I was talking specifically about those who bail without trying a roll as the feel it's the easiest option.
It's a really common issue and if a bit of [friendly] banter/peer-pressure/incentive is what it takes to help them skip past that mindset, then it could be a positive thing.
But other than that I'm with you.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Mark Dixon » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:40 am

It can go the other way where a paddler doesnt know when to quit and keeps failing a roll in bad situations, I led a reasonably new paddler down the Upper Dart a couple weeks ago in lower flows and he was fearless, he went over a few times and his roll was "work in progress" due to a lot of nerves I think, most times he got up after a few attempts and had to be pulled up in the eddy at Euthanasia. He was very determined but took a few knocks, he went over at top of nasty bouldery rapid just after Euthanasia and with rolling attempts did the rapid upside down exposed. He eventually swam and we rescued him at the bottom, I pointed out I would rather him choose his moment better to bail as we could have a casualty to deal with.
I personally would never do a Booty as its gross and not bothered about how others do it, I am also cool about people bailing pretty quick cos upside down is exposed.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Lancs_lad » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:00 am

Non of the replies justify the reason people do booties.

The yanks do it because they think it's cool and can't legally "party" until 21. In the UK there is no reason to do it, unless it is the first drink of an all night bender.

As for old people doing it (I include myself), just stop! It will not make you refind your youth and/or it is not escapism from the 9 to 5.

Finally, "paying respect to the river gods", so much wrong with this statement I can't be bothered to pick it apart.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Franky » Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:59 am

DaveBland wrote:Hey Franky, I don't think we are disagreeing!
I hear everything you say. But I was talking specifically about those who bail without trying a roll as the feel it's the easiest option.
It's a really common issue and if a bit of [friendly] banter/peer-pressure/incentive is what it takes to help them skip past that mindset, then it could be a positive thing.
But other than that I'm with you.
Sure. The thing is, once you can roll, you know that rolling is the easy option, not swimming.

The key issue is confidence. I think you need to have a near-100% solid roll in flat water before you are confident to try it in white water. Last year, I got to a 70% successful roll in flat water, but invariably swam in white water. Only after a few more winter pool sessions, and getting my flatwater roll up to near 100%, did I feel ready this year to give it a try in white water.

Of course, whitewater rolling can be easier than flatwater rolling, as long as you do it on the correct side, but learning to work out which side the current is on is a minor skill in itself. You have to be prepared for the extra time under water if the first side on which you try to get your paddle out turns out to be the upstream side.

I was lucky with my first whitewater roll in that I had my "good" side to the current and so could use my stronger right-handed roll. I was surprised in fact at how little effort it took, compared to on flat water. However, I quickly learned that if you're the wrong side to the current, you'll never get up. So until I'd got my left-handed roll reasonably solid (but still not as good as my right-handed one), I would always swim if I capsized on my bad side.

It probably depends on clubs' attitudes. My club has a relaxed attitude to rolling, and happily takes members on grade 2 trips who can't roll - and it doesn't *insist* on a roll for grade 3. Some might say it's too forgiving in that respect, but I like it, because it means WW newbies feel welcome, even if there are a fair few swims!

I agree with what you say mostly, I'm just saying that in general it's not laziness that prevents people attempting to roll, but lack of confidence.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Mark Dixon » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:27 pm

I think its crap that you need to find out which side the water is going, I've never bothered with it and mostly roll fine, the only way I've needed this is in a hole. Yes its nice to just pop up but better to just roll quickly and not overcomplicate things when your upside down, thats when a feature will grab you and you become disorientated.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by DaveBland » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:58 pm

Franky wrote:
The key issue is confidence. I think you need to have a near-100% solid roll in flat water before you are confident to try it in white water. Last year, I got to a 70% successful roll in flat water, but invariably swam in white water. Only after a few more winter pool sessions, and getting my flatwater roll up to near 100%, did I feel ready this year to give it a try in white water.
I think you are missing my point, and possibly that could be the issue with you rolling or not on WW too.

A roll is a roll on WW or flat. The only real difference is in your head. Sure, on higher grades aerated water and slammed up against walls make a difference, but at G2/3 it's the same thing. 'Side' can make a difference, but when first learning to roll, everyone has a stronger side. Hell, I did my first 'off-side' roll the other day for four years.

I would strongly recommend ignoring stuff like which way you are facing, the current and all that gubbins… just make sure you really bang your body into the set-up position - hard and fast - as soon as you are over. once in the correct position, a roll is a roll. The reason folks struggle more on moving water is lethargic set up. Their head is stuck on things like being upset they've gone over/the cold/the fact they can't breathe/which way the current is/where their friends are/the drop coming up… all sorts of crap that totally distract from getting set up in the roll position. Only then can you roll. After that, none of those other things in your head matter.

So… to my original point… there are many paddlers who can roll sometimes, certainly who are capable of giving it a go - who as soon as they flip, bail. It's these good people who I was suggesting that a bit of added incentive of a booty MAY help if it acts as a deterant from just pulling straight away.

Anyway, rant over. I really hope you get your roll sorted. The feeling of freedom from having a 100% bomber roll is the biggest step in progressing in this great sport.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Hakase » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Mark Dixon wrote:I think its crap that you need to find out which side the water is going, I've never bothered with it and mostly roll fine, the only way I've needed this is in a hole. Yes its nice to just pop up but better to just roll quickly and not overcomplicate things when your upside down, thats when a feature will grab you and you become disorientated.
Mark
I think it depends on the individual paddler and the circumstance, but it's always going to be a lot more efficient to roll on your downstream side. If you're not setup for an upstream side roll, and if you have a working roll on the other side, I'd try and go for the more efficient one.

I think the most effective roll is nearly always the fastest one, and what that will be for a particular circumstance depends on the individual paddler.

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by morsey » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:26 pm

For reference: There ain't no way I'm drinking out of a shoe, no way, nope, not never.

Having been at a party and seen the same person not drink, I found the facial views to be very expressive. Personally I rate the paddler as world leading regardless of sex. She has a very different approach to paddling from myself and I find that very interesting, to note how different motivation and different thought process can allow you to be a true exponent at the higher echelons of WW paddling. It's uncommon to find paddlers that can create their own path and stay on it without being drawn by the masses. It was a bit too 'easy viewing' to just show the mighty fallen, a bit too 'laid out'. Anyone who can film and edit to that degree will have had an idea, a thought, an underlying message to portray, and as such didn't just watch the video and think "She swam, she drink swim beer!" Plus also, and it hasn't seemed to have been picked up on. The video was nondescript! No shots of a person swimming, no confirmation of what occurred, just suggestion! As such I thought it more likely to be; I swam and I mock your institution! Or someone else swam and I'll take that hit! To which I raise my (metaphoric) glass and share a wry smile. (Disclaimer: All I've done is watch the video, been too busy to read any sub scripts to accompany, so could be way off the mark!)

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:18 pm

It's a disgusting practice and even aside from the psychological issues mentioned I am more likely to respect anyone who stands up against peer pressure and doesn't do it.

It's pretty rare that I swim from kayaks, but switching to OC1 has really opened my eyes up to swimming. I guess the really good guys can avoid swimming, but half the time I fall out before I can even get set up to roll. You certainly won't find me drinking bootie beers no matter how many swims I take.

Rolling in moving water is easy, often easier than on flat water. Side does make a difference, but most kayakers develop a strong enough roll to work on the upstream side if necessary, and if it fails they are usually able to switch. Something I have discovered with OC1 and C1 is that in strong flow they won't roll upstream*, and I can't switch....
*possibly because my C1 roll is not bombproof yet

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by DaveBland » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:19 am

...and of course if you wait a second so you are travelling the same speed as the current, then in theory the flow has no bearing on the roll. It has much more to do with getting set up in the first place. That's where really tucking hard and fast into the roll position with agression makes the difference.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by flipt » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:03 pm

Im gunna disagree with a couple of you here;
Yes bootie beers could be used to humiliate and bully people.
However, in my experience in both personal and student trip worlds this has never been the case. its just a bit of fun, a bit of banter and a recognition of occasional error, normally instigated by the person who swam. Part of what makes paddling so awesome is the banter and playful abuse we all doll out and we all receive when we mess up. booties are part of that. I have found that booties and the like have had at very least a positive effect on group dynamic - it brings us together in a social fashion. Why be so serious?
Its worth noting that if people are pressuring others in to doing booties in the same way people push others to run rapids they arent comfortable doing.....these are not your friends. If you spend your time with your mates there is no such pressure.

I get that for some of you it isnt your thing and thats fine, but flat out criticising something that others take enjoyment from (including those you see as 'victims') is a little like supporting those people that want to see most of what we do banned for 'safety reasons'.

I agree that a pressured mentality where its expected that swimmers should take some sort of forfeit should not be tolerated, but if people are having fun with their mates, why cast a negative view on that? There are already enough fun police in the world.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by banzer » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:19 pm

Never 'done one' nor seen any need.

If groups that are comfortable paddling together like to do this, that's fine by me. If there is any suggestion of pressure on others to join in the 'ritual' then, not fine by me.

I don't really see the point of the video, it's not clear whether it is glorifying or denigrating 'the bootie', so you might as well argue what colour is the wind.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by cswalker » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:24 pm

flipt wrote:Im gunna disagree with a couple of you here;
Yes bootie beers could be used to humiliate and bully people.
However, in my experience in both personal and student trip worlds this has never been the case. its just a bit of fun, a bit of banter and a recognition of occasional error, normally instigated by the person who swam. Part of what makes paddling so awesome is the banter and playful abuse we all doll out and we all receive when we mess up. booties are part of that. I have found that booties and the like have had at very least a positive effect on group dynamic - it brings us together in a social fashion. Why be so serious?
Its worth noting that if people are pressuring others in to doing booties in the same way people push others to run rapids they arent comfortable doing.....these are not your friends. If you spend your time with your mates there is no such pressure.

I get that for some of you it isnt your thing and thats fine, but flat out criticising something that others take enjoyment from (including those you see as 'victims') is a little like supporting those people that want to see most of what we do banned for 'safety reasons'.

I agree that a pressured mentality where its expected that swimmers should take some sort of forfeit should not be tolerated, but if people are having fun with their mates, why cast a negative view on that? There are already enough fun police in the world.
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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Hakase » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:27 pm

banzer wrote:Never 'done one' nor seen any need.

If groups that are comfortable paddling together like to do this, that's fine by me. If there is any suggestion of pressure on others to join in the 'ritual' then, not fine by me.
Exactly what I think. Whether or not it's appropriate depends on the particular group dynamic.

The other caveat I'd like to add is that if you swim more often than not, you really shouldn't be doing them. It's kind of stupid, and it's not very healthy.

(I'm not actually old enough to drink, so I don't think I'm really qualified to express an opinion here -- but as always, I'm doing so anyway)

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Re: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Post by Adam-Evans22 » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:02 pm

I've done my fair share of beer booties and can't say I've ever felt peer pressured into doing one, if anything it turns a negative experience (swimming) into a positive/funny one (drinking a beer!).

Each it their own though.

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