dee access

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Mike A
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dee access

Post by Mike A » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:19 pm

WELSH RIVER DEE - PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT (1st September 2014)

Welsh Dee Partnership is pleased to announce improved access to 10 miles of the River Dee for canoeists and kayakers. The landmark agreement negotiated will mean access for paddlers from Glyndyfrdwy to Llangollen most Wednesdays and Saturdays outside of the salmon fishing and spawning season. The timed release of paddlers from Glyndyfrdwy will mean both canoeists/kayakers and anglers can enjoy their sport without conflicting interest. It will also permit training of canoeists to take place at designated places on the river.

The Chairman of Welsh Dee Partnership, Huw Evans said: “I am delighted that the access has been finalised. This will enable canoeists and fishermen to enjoy the river without conflict.”

Notes for Editors: Welsh Dee Partnership was formed in 2010 to look for a sensible solution to canoeists and anglers sharing the river so that both could enjoy this unique river. Members of the partnership include:
BOPA (British Outdoor Professionals Association)
Coed Y Glyn Log Cabins
Corwen and District Angling Club
Get Wet The Adventure Company
Llangollen Maelor Angling
Llangollen Outdoors
Midland Flyfishers
Nomad Canoes
ProAdventureSafe and
Sound Outdoors

Funding has been provided by the fishing clubs, Natural Resources Wales Splash Fund, Cadwyn Clwyd Limited and Denbighshire County Council to provide a website, notice boards, webcams and gauges and the temporary appointment of a River Access Co-ordinator.

Two river height gauges and webcams have been installed - one at Coed-Y-Glyn (Glyndyfrdwy) and the other at Mile End Mill, Llangollen.

New Access Summary for Glydyfrdwy
20th October to 31st March
All days of the week available if the water level is shown to be at least 3ft(High Water) on the Coed Y Glyn gauge at 8:00am. Launching between 10am and 12.30pm. This is in order to protect the spawning grounds, as the River Dee is an ‘at-risk’ river as far as salmon stocks are concerned.

1st April to 30th August
Wednesdays and Saturdays only – no water level restriction. Launching between 10am and 12.30pm.

31st August to 19th October
Paddling only permitted when the water level is shown to be at least  3ft on the gauge at 8:00am. Launching between 10am and 12.30pm. This is in order to ensure that minimum disruption occurs to the salmon fishermen during this period.

Existing Access Arrangements from Horseshoe Falls
This new arrangement is in addition to an earlier agreement for canoeists to launch from Horseshoe Falls to Llangollen Town Weir any day of the week after 10am throughout the year, provided they vacate the water by 3.00pm. 

Welsh Dee Partnership website www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk provides all the details of the Partnership including access to information on river heights and forthcoming events. For more information, please contact Tony Gaskin on 07920 801343 or email at info@welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk

Copyright © 2014 Welsh Dee Partnership Ltd, All rights reserved. 
Our mailing address is: Welsh Dee Partnership LtdThe Malthouse Business CentreLlangollen, Denbighshire LL20 8HSUnited Kingdom

Mike A
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Re: dee access

Post by Mike A » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:22 pm

So, public funding being used to reduce access.

People involved in paddlesport reducing access

Whats the odds we will now get more grief if we paddle from carrog down or on a sunday as we will be "paddling outside the agreement"
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Re: dee access

Post by Voodoo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:25 pm

not in my name, I haven't agreed to anything ....stay calm, paddle on



as is my understanding these agreements is purely only with the fishing body's and the commercial river users, so the old status quo is the same with you the public paddler, I am sure the fishing folk will think this applies to all of us but it doesn't, only those who have signed up to it Ie: commercial operators are bound by it, I look forward to my 4 pm paddles
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Re: dee access

Post by fatnbald » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:53 pm

if the salmon stocks are "at risk" on the Dee, why are they still fishing on it ? :)

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Re: dee access

Post by Mike A » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:09 pm

We need CW to produce a strong reply to this. I have asked them on their facebook page, bit the more the merrier.

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Re: dee access

Post by Mark R » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:15 pm

Why do they even bother? Where the Dee is concerned, the genie left the bottle nearly a decade ago.
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Re: dee access

Post by Franky » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:21 pm

I like "timed release of paddlers" :)

But why no timed release of fishermen?

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Re: dee access

Post by swimboater » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:34 pm

"You are politely requested to respect these times"

I politely refuse.

"Please note that canoe rolls and other ‘acrobatics’ are only allowed in areas designated by posts with green markings"

If no rolling is allowed are they saying that we should all swim if we capsize?

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Re: dee access

Post by quicky » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:37 pm

Interesting who they say are involved in this....

http://www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk/

an agreement is only an agreement between those who 'agree' to it, nobody else......

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Re: dee access

Post by quicky » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:00 am

It would be interesting to see the comment from the 'canoe organisations' in this agreement as to why they agreeing to try to restrict access for others....

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Re: dee access

Post by Voodoo » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:25 am

Just been reading over there website and it seems to me they seem to think we are all going to abide by this agreement the 3pm thing seems to be applying to all off us or at lest that's the way its worded, all I can say is good luck to them since I have no intention of abiding by it, and look forward to watching them try and enforce it on me
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Re: dee access

Post by 66quinny66 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:19 am

and "no wild swimming"

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Re: dee access

Post by StillNewish » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:26 am

An 'agreement' can only apply to those who have signed up to it. By definition, those who have had no involvement are totally unaffected by it. Otherwise, the below that I have just drafted would be equally valid;

"There is now an agreement in place (drafted by me and my mate down the pub) that Welsh Dee Partnership Ltd will make my mortgage repayments from now on."

They would laugh at me if I tried to make this stick (and quite rightly so!); to my mind the above is not any more valid.

As above, paddle responsibly and enjoy the river :)

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Re: dee access

Post by Mike A » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:27 am

Totally agree that the genie is out of the bottle, elvis has left the buiding, agreements are only between those that are signed up, etc, etc.

But to the wider non paddling public who is not aware of the history of some angling clubs refusing to negotiate until we have forced their hand, or Caffyn's paper re access, then it could look like it is paddlers who are refusing to play ball. So yes for us its a case of just paddle, but for the longer game of recognised river access then this needs a string response from cw.

We need a strong robust response from cw to the wider public and funding bodies.

Also we need to rebut the agreement so as to reduce the grief paddlers get on all the sections above horseshoe.

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Re: dee access

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:43 pm

I've been a bit cheeky and contacted some of the commercial operators mentioned in the press release to get their take on it. (Please don't everyone else contact them)

From the responses I have had, they see this as a commercial arrangement purely between themselves and the angling interests and do not consider this should have any impact on the wider paddling community. Some have been so kind as to give me a very full and detailed response and I am quite sure they do not see that they are selling anyone down the river to mix a metafor.

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Re: dee access

Post by tjclare » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:59 pm

I emailed the agreement organisation, and it was confirmed that the agreement in place with commercial operators.

However, the access part of it was presented as a "concession" from landowners to paddlers.

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Re: dee access

Post by Voodoo » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:01 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:I've been a bit cheeky and contacted some of the commercial operators mentioned in the press release to get their take on it. (Please don't everyone else contact them)

From the responses I have had, they see this as a commercial arrangement purely between themselves and the angling interests and do not consider this should have any impact on the wider paddling community. Some have been so kind as to give me a very full and detailed response and I am quite sure they do not see that they are selling anyone down the river to mix a metaphor.
This was the impression I got after speaking to 2 out of the 3 main commercial company's I spoke to early this year, and I would go as far as to say when you chat to them you can quickly see there reasons for doing it, weather you agree or not with the overall agreement from a commercial prospective they had too to ensure they could continue to operate with out fear of being sued all the time, off course there are commercial providers who haven't signed up to the partnership it will be interesting to see how that pans out for them in the longer term but I am rooting for them since this all has the feeling of a thin edge of the wedge about it

I think part of the problem is the way its put across in the Dee partnership website you could easily be forgiven if you didn't know any better that it applies to everyone that is wishing to use the river, when that clearly isn't the case
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Re: dee access

Post by chris241 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:26 pm

Does anyone know what this 3 feet permitted level on these new gauges equates to on the old Mile End Mill gauge? Is this a nice paddleable level for mixed ability groups or is it full on spate levels?

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Re: dee access

Post by Wildswimmer Pete » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:52 pm

66quinny66 wrote:and "no wild swimming"
They can dream on. The wild-swimming movement is already giving the collective finger to the vested interests concerned. Anyway most wild swimming in Llangollen is from the rocks near to the town centre and they are public land! We are very much backing paddlesport against this threat.

I wish I could get there to demonstrate defiance. Anybody from my area going to Llanglollen that can give me a lift - contribution to expenses naturally?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/outdoor ... 1222412830


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SimonMW
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Re: dee access

Post by SimonMW » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:05 pm

I think part of the problem is the way its put across in the Dee partnership website you could easily be forgiven if you didn't know any better that it applies to everyone that is wishing to use the river, when that clearly isn't the case
I see nothing to indicate that is not aimed at all users. That's how it reads to me, and that's how the anglers who will give paddlers grief will see it as well.
weather you agree or not with the overall agreement from a commercial prospective they had too to ensure they could continue to operate with out fear of being sued all the time
Threatened with being sued is not the same as actually being sued, especially if you know that there isn't actually anything they could sue you for! I really do not understand why those companies didn't get together to give the collective finger to those who threatened them and point out that they don't have a leg to stand on with their empty threats.

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Re: dee access

Post by Wildswimmer Pete » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:21 pm

Re my previous post, could one of the mods re-parse the Faecesbook garbage I posted 'cos I couldn't modify or delete it before my post became locked? The FB embed link showed the standard URL but when I posted it all that I got was the garbage seen above. No option for BB code.

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Re: dee access

Post by Voodoo » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:43 pm

Wildswimmer Pete wrote:Re my previous post, could one of the mods re-parse the Faecesbook garbage I posted 'cos I couldn't modify or delete it before my post became locked? The FB embed link showed the standard URL but when I posted it all that I got was the garbage seen above. No option for BB code.

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Re: dee access

Post by Wildswimmer Pete » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:27 pm

swimboater wrote:"You are politely requested to respect these times"
If no rolling is allowed are they saying that we should all swim if we capsize?
No, that's "wild swimming" which isn't allowed.

Thanks guys, for correctly parsing my Facebook link.

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Re: dee access

Post by Wildswimmer Pete » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:20 pm

Looking at the Outdoor Swimming Society's FB page (link above) things are hotting up re Llangollen. Quicky has proposed a mass paddle and swim - I think that is a bloody fantastic idea. I'm game :-)

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Re: dee access

Post by Franky » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:12 pm

SimonMW wrote: I see nothing to indicate that is not aimed at all users. That's how it reads to me, and that's how the anglers who will give paddlers grief will see it as well.
Quite. One would need to have a charitable view of the anglers' groups to imagine that they'd be happy for non-commercial paddlers to continue using the river when they liked.

I agree with the "thin end of the wedge" argument. The anglers can take the moral high ground, saying they have agreed - unlike in the past - to tolerate paddlers under certain conditions. To an uninformed reader, this looks like a generous concession. The general public isn't going to consider how restrictive the conditions actually are. So if people continue to paddle outside these restrictions, the anglers can portray the paddlers as the unreasonable ones, with the implication that they know what to expect.

I don't know how much public opinion affects the outcome of these marginal disagreements, but it has any effect, it won't be to the benefit of the paddlers. It's pretty certain whose side the press will take.
weather you agree or not with the overall agreement from a commercial prospective they had too to ensure they could continue to operate with out fear of being sued all the time
Threatened with being sued is not the same as actually being sued, especially if you know that there isn't actually anything they could sue you for! I really do not understand why those companies didn't get together to give the collective finger to those who threatened them and point out that they don't have a leg to stand on with their empty threats.
Because they're commercial operations and their concern is their income, not the rights and wrongs of the situation.

If people are paying these companies money to paddle on the Dee, and then being threatened and having stones thrown at them, then regardless of the legalities of the situation, they're going to stop booking. If I were a punter, I wouldn't care who was legally right or wrong, I'd just be thinking it's a cheek for a company to charge me money for a trip on which they couldn't guarantee I wouldn't be abused or assaulted.

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Re: dee access

Post by John K » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:38 pm

tjclare wrote:However, the access part of it was presented as a "concession" from landowners to paddlers.
Are the access points public, or does this "agreement" allow access over private property subject to their conditions?

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Re: dee access

Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:22 pm

I have been having an interesting discussion with them over email asking for clarification on whether they thought they could limit navigation to non commercial paddlers.

I won't copy the whole conversation but I thought this last email was worth quoting as I think it clarifies their stance very clearly.
Denzil

I am not implying or inferring that there is an agreement in place affecting paddlers. It is a concession by the landowners to help avoid conflict between canoeists and anglers and we have simply laid out what those concessions are.
You have a right to your opinion that the land owners have no legal right to stop anyone paddling the Dee – the facts are otherwise, until legislation is passed (such as that now in force in Scotland).

Perhaps the following link will help…
http://naturenet.net/law/rivers.html

Of course many believe they have a right and you can probably find many instances of this in print and on the Web.

Canoe Wales and Canoe England are campaigning for universal access – why would they be campaigning if there was a right already?

Welsh Assembly member John Griffiths in charge of Sport & Recreation stated in his May note that voluntary arrangements (such as ours) are the way forward – for now.

I hope this clarifies

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Re: dee access

Post by quicky » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:35 pm

Tony's link to naturenet proves he is so out of date he should come into the next century.....

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Re: dee access

Post by Yew » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:22 pm

quicky wrote:Tony's link to naturenet proves he is so out of date he should come into the next century.....
That site is so old, I was expecting a 'hit' counter somewhere on it!

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Re: dee access

Post by quicky » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:21 pm

This is on FB Canoe England page
https://www.facebook.com/canoeengland
Canoe England
4 hours ago
Our colleagues at Canoe Wales have released statement in response to the recent announcements made by The Welsh Dee Partnership (see here for more details - http://www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk/):

“Canoe Wales represents the interests of its members on matters of access and in doing so we also seek to benefit the general public. There is a long history of responsible access on the River Dee by our members and the general public for canoeing, kayaking and other river based activities. They bring economic, social and well-being benefits of paddle sports contributing to a world-renowned outdoor activities culture in Wales. The river Dee is a jewel in the crown of rivers in Wales and we should be rightly proud that our sport is carried out responsibly with consideration for the environment and other users.

It is understandable that the commercial outdoor companies on the Dee wish to enter into a mutually beneficial relationship with angling bodies. We welcome collaboration and partnership working in the management of our waterways and seek to work productively with all our partners.

Canoe Wales will issue or endorse guidance on responsible use. Regrettably in this case Canoe Wales has not been party to this agreement. This agreement can therefore only be seen as being between the parties involved.

We would welcome discussion with the Welsh Dee Partnership on an ongoing basis regarding this matter.

We would request that The Welsh Dee Partnership amends its website to say that their statements only apply to the commercial bodies and angling clubs involved in the agreement.”

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