"OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

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paddler_linds
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"OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:21 pm

I am looking for a bit of help from those of you who were paddling playboats in the late 90's and early 00's. Basically I am looking to get something a lot faster than what I have to make the best use of the small and often less than perfect features on our local run. I have tried everything more modern boats and decided that 'Old skool is Kool', well for round here anyway.

So the question is which of these boats has the A. Fastest forward speed and best release to catch waves B. is easy enough to roll and not a total pig ( Mr Clean, didn't make the list) C. easy to throw down for flat water moves. D generally well mannered enough and behaves itself.

I am 6', 200lbs

The list is..

Necky Zip, Wavesport Forplay/Ace 5.1, Dagger Cetrifuge/medieval/superego, Prijon Delerious XL, Perception Method air, Eskimo Quadro, Prozone 235, Riot Prankster.

Couldn't get in the Loki otherwise I'd look at it. Padlling a Juice 7.1 at the moment, which I generally like and it has to be a good bit faster than that to make it worth changing. If you would tell me a little about why you think your choice is best, that would be really helpful.

Thanks in advance

Sam Williams
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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Sam Williams » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:39 pm

I had a foreplay at the same hight and weigh, couldn't sit in it for more than 45 minutes. And even neoprene socks made things worse for my size 10s. That said it was a fun boat, I swapped mine for a ws big easy, best decision ever. Found it just as fast and playful with a hell of a lot more foot room.

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:16 pm

Sam Williams wrote:I had a foreplay at the same height and weight, couldn't sit in it for more than 45 minutes. And even neoprene socks made things worse for my size 10s. That said it was a fun boat, I swapped mine for a ws big easy, best decision ever. Found it just as fast and playful with a hell of a lot more foot room.
Oh that's no good, there was a score also which was a little bigger. I heard the EZ is a slow boat comparatively and definitely wouldn't be faster than the Juice, which I have. Really appreciate the reply and the chance to score the forplay off the list!!

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by kayak1 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:26 pm

Its worth looking at the forplay, I have the smaller XXX for the same reason as you, more fun, fast and brilliant in the Surf and easy to roll.. maybe perception Amp or the Riot dom or trickster series...the Zip was great for squirts and for sea surfing, but quite slow when paddling, the other older necky boats are great too.. maybe the Dagger outlaw or honcho...I agree that old school boats seem to be the way to go for more fun and without those silly price tags..

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Sickboy » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:21 pm

As much as I'm loving my Super EZ its definitely not quick, and if I rack my brains a bit i'd say my mates juice was quicker even with me being a few pies over the top end of the weight range. If Dagger made a 7.3 Juice I'm pretty sure I'd be paddling one but hey hum.
Still fancy a prozone for some reason, pretty sure it'd cripple me, ruled the large S8 off my old skool list when I saw one being paddled by someone a lot slimmer than me, would have made a good squirt boat though, they go for shocking money for old plastic though.
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Dom c
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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Dom c » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:31 am

Necky Orbit Fish, amazing speed, easy to throw around and comfortable :-)

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jim » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:05 am

Riot Glide.

The Prankster may have been more comfortable but I don't think it was as fast.

Session+ is slightly easier to throw down and more comfortable, but not as fast.

I still have both :)

PS: I would advise changing the title to normal case or the thread is likely to get deleted, it breaks the only written rule....

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by boater rich » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:16 pm

I have a SuperEgo, its comfy, fast and still throws down on the flat.

As already mentioned
Necky Switch / Orbit Fish, Riot Glide / Trickster / Dominatrix, Wavesport Forplay / Score, etc will all do the job.

Have fun.

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BigPhil
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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by BigPhil » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:23 pm

Old skool boats I've enjoyed: Wavesport Z, Riot Prankster, S8-235, Dagger Superego

I'm about 15.5st, 6'4" with long legs and big feet. All of these are comfortable to paddle for 2 or 3 hours, there are lots of older boats I couldn't fit into that were too painful on the legs and feet.

Z - Great boat used for river running, surfing, big water, overnight etc. Too much volume to throw down easily but very fast boat and easy to paddle.

Prankster - Never really got on with it, bought as a better playboat than the Z but I preferred the Z for rivers and playing

S8-235 - As soon as I paddled this boat I knew it was the one for me - it fitted my size perfectly for the first time. Fast on a wave, slicey, balanced on end and easy to paddle downriver. As well as being my main playboat I used it for riverrunning in the alps and turkey (coruh area). Carves really nicely (better than the ego) and good release for blunts

Super Ego - I'm a little heavy for it but it's my current main playboat. Easiest to throw down that I've paddled, fast on the wave, brilliant for flat spins and grinds but not as fun to carve or blunt as the s8. Easy to roll but a bit of a handful downriver, mainly because of my weight.

Big ez - fun playboat but not as fast as the others you mention. I also really liked the dagger rx 6.9 which I guess is similar to your juice but way more comfy for me - I can't fit in the juice.

Hope this helps.

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by BigPhil » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:24 pm

PS Orbit fish is great, but I can't comfortably get into it - my legs are too long.

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jim » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:29 pm

Er, Bigphil - wasn't the Z the creeker built on the X hull? Or maybe I'm thinking of the Y?
Took an X down the canyon in '07, took a few days to get used to the extra volume compared to my Session+ but I was soon wavewheeling and cartwheeling it on almost every rapid. By the end of the trip I was working on kickflips (never quite got that though). Main problem for me was the really aggressive thigh grips, I would have preferred my Session+ in which I could at least unlock my knees to stretch my ankles in the boat - I found that much harder to do in the X, kept thinking I was going to rip a knee-cap off. It did cruise easier than the Session+ (which I used for the canyon in '04).

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by BigPhil » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:04 pm

Y is the creeker. Z is the bigger version of the X - the best thing about it is the less agressive thigh grips ;-)

It is harder to throw down though - unless you are ken whiting! Even the mighty dr robin could only manage 2 or 3 ends at his peak I seem to remember!
Jim wrote:Er, Bigphil - wasn't the Z the creeker built on the X hull? Or maybe I'm thinking of the Y?
Took an X down the canyon in '07, took a few days to get used to the extra volume compared to my Session+ but I was soon wavewheeling and cartwheeling it on almost every rapid. By the end of the trip I was working on kickflips (never quite got that though). Main problem for me was the really aggressive thigh grips, I would have preferred my Session+ in which I could at least unlock my knees to stretch my ankles in the boat - I found that much harder to do in the X, kept thinking I was going to rip a knee-cap off. It did cruise easier than the Session+ (which I used for the canyon in '04).

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:38 pm

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm interested by the suggestion of an S8 235, as I really like the I3 is the S8 any faster? I was under the impression it is a really hard boat to throw down on the flat though, which had put me off? That is an important thing for me as messing about in the flats is sometimes as much excitement as we get depending on water height.

I think the orbit fish simply wouldn't accelerate fast enough at 2m for me,although I don't doubt it's fast on a wave if you can catch it, it's just the catching can be an issue.

The Riot glide would be ideal, but I think really hard to throw down, I heard the prankster is pretty tough and is of course smaller. Leaning towards a superego at the moment even though it's maybe not quite as fast as the longer stuff.

As for changing the case of the title it will no longer let me, so this may get deleted.

Thanks

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Neptune » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:22 am

paddler_linds,

Never mind this looking to get something a lot faster than what I have to make the best use of the small and often less than perfect features on our local run, get yourself a Topo and you will have hours of fun whilst improving your paddle skills, hahaha...

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by BigPhil » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:35 am

It depends on what you can already do - if you can throw down in a modern playboat you won't struggle in something like an s8 or Ego. As you are "only" 6ft tall you could fit in the small s8 (I could fit in for a short time) but you'll sacrifice waves speed and ease of paddling.

I'd need to know which waves/rivers you'll be paddling on to know whether a boat would be fast enough but I don't think you really need something anything faster than an s8/ego unless you are surfing really flat waves. Earlier boats e.g. (Inazone, gliss, glide, foreplay) had flatter profiles = more speed. As things moved on boats had more either progressive rocker (still fast but not as fast but easier to turn/control) or kick rocker (better release for blunts/aeriel moves but slow).

You'll have to decide on your prorities - speed/ease of paddling/ cartwheelability and this will highlight the tradeoffs involved. The s8 was the best boat for me mostly because it was the correct size and suited my style.
paddler_linds wrote:Thanks for the replies so far. I'm interested by the suggestion of an S8 235, as I really like the I3 is the S8 any faster? I was under the impression it is a really hard boat to throw down on the flat though, which had put me off? That is an important thing for me as messing about in the flats is sometimes as much excitement as we get depending on water height.

I think the orbit fish simply wouldn't accelerate fast enough at 2m for me,although I don't doubt it's fast on a wave if you can catch it, it's just the catching can be an issue.

The Riot glide would be ideal, but I think really hard to throw down, I heard the prankster is pretty tough and is of course smaller. Leaning towards a superego at the moment even though it's maybe not quite as fast as the longer stuff.

As for changing the case of the title it will no longer let me, so this may get deleted.

Thanks

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jim » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:44 am

Have you tried a glide?
I never found it really hard to throw down, it was the first boat I could ever flatwheel, in fact when it was introduced it was so much easier to cartwheel than anything else that it thrashed all the competition at the freestyle worlds by a huge margin and lead to a change of rules for the next year so cartwheeling alone couldn't secure a win. It had a reputation (unfair) for just being a cartwheel machine but it can do a lot more. It doesn't have volume distribution and short length for modern aerial looping, but none of the boats you are looking at do - speed or looping!

It may well be a little harder to throw down than some more modern boats, but with good technique it is fine. I found the X more tricky, but even that goes with good technique.

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:35 am

Jim wrote:Have you tried a glide?
I never found it really hard to throw down, it was the first boat I could ever flatwheel, in fact when it was introduced it was so much easier to cartwheel than anything else that it thrashed all the competition at the freestyle worlds by a huge margin and lead to a change of rules for the next year so cartwheeling alone couldn't secure a win.
As I recall, they changed the rules the day before the competition and Corran sat in the eddy holding up a protest banner when it was his ride.

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by BigPhil » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:40 am

They did - but I'm sure it was to do with wave moves due to the flat hull than cartwheeling. Lots of the boats were good for cartwheeling but the glide was best at flat spinning etc on the wave part of the feature (full james in NZ?)

PS - I've owned a prankster but not a glide - it is possible to throw down on the flat but I wouldn't describe it as fun - certainly not in the same way as a prozone, xxx, ego, etc. So great as a fast boat not so much as a flatwater boat unless you are very strong/skilled. Not the best boat to learn to flatwheel in.
Adrian Cooper wrote:
Jim wrote:Have you tried a glide?
I never found it really hard to throw down, it was the first boat I could ever flatwheel, in fact when it was introduced it was so much easier to cartwheel than anything else that it thrashed all the competition at the freestyle worlds by a huge margin and lead to a change of rules for the next year so cartwheeling alone couldn't secure a win.
As I recall, they changed the rules the day before the competition and Corran sat in the eddy holding up a protest banner when it was his ride.

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jim » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:49 am

Oh right, so it thrashed everything else in practice and then was neutered just in the nick of time!

I think you are right it was the first boat that would surf a green wave sideways (managed that once - need a good wave and fine balance!) but I'm sure the discussion was all about the fact that cartwheels were scored too high and the glide (with Corran in it) could simply rack up continuous ends and splits, so the rules changed to make variety more important, i.e. if you pull 2 identical cartwheels only one scores points or something.

It's been years since I entered a freestyle comp (squashed topo and snipe for old skool!) and I never understood the scoring even then!

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:35 pm

I have never tried a glide, or any of these other boats unfortunately so this is a purely uniformed stab in the dark, which is why I am trying to do the research. I live in Perth, so the local run is at Stanley and as others have said the wave at the weir no longer forms very well and although there are limited options elsewhere acceleration is a factor. Some of the other small wave are pretty steep and some of these boats may actually be a hindrance, however this is only an issue in high water. As for skill standing vertical, unfortunately it's very limited and usually use eddylines etc to get the Juice on end. I have seen things like the outlaw flatwheeled which I thought was incredible, my skills are no where near that.

Always liked the look of the ego, but not dismissing the glide , session +, or forplay. I tried getting into an S8 225 when I was younger and there was no chance of that and I note the volume of the 235 is huge by comparison to these other boats listed. The chap at the local canoe shop said he couldn't flat wheel it at 110, so I thought I had no chance.

I have also been advised to look for flat rockered boats, so appreciate the advice on that.

Thanks all

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jones Chris » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:30 pm

It was flat spins that the Glide changed the rules on. Before the Glide there wasn't really a boat that would do them on a green wave. Corran came along and shoved it in their faces and so they down graded the score for a flat spin.( I believe they were scored higher than a cartwheel at the time)

If you like the idea of a Glide but want easier throw on the flat try to find a slice. Rare as hens teeth but if you can find one they are ace. And, no, you can't have mine (unless you have a large Squashtail to swap it for)

Chris

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by kayak1 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:18 pm

It may be worth looking at the necky boats as they have low rocker, but fairly long... The Eskimo Xeno.. First one not the second version...or even the Riot Flair 57 it has some speed, high playability but not quite old school.. Inazone, or what's already been mentioned seems a fair choice..try to borrow and have a go is the only way...

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Sickboy » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:19 pm

Jones Chris wrote:It was flat spins that the Glide changed the rules on. Before the Glide there wasn't really a boat that would do them on a green wave. Corran came along and shoved it in their faces and so they down graded the score for a flat spin.( I believe they were scored higher than a cartwheel at the time)

If you like the idea of a Glide but want easier throw on the flat try to find a slice. Rare as hens teeth but if you can find one they are ace. And, no, you can't have mine (unless you have a large Squashtail to swap it for)

Chris
Is the Glide the boat with the banging rack molded into the back deck?

Edit:
Nope, that was the Disko, my bad...
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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jim » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:12 am

Any of the boats mentioned* will cartwheel on the eddylines at 'the wall' (i.e. just below Campsie Linn where you normally have to portage up to get to the Linn if accessing at Burnmouth).

Far too many people get hung up on weight for cartwheeling, it may be a slight benefit for flatwheeling but if there is flow the way you angle the boat is much more important than your weight, in fact being too heavy (as I always have been) is probably a disadvantage because you have too much boat engaged.

You are a bit lighter than me but a few inches higher - you are probably too long for a glide (or a slice) - the ends of those boats are really slicey which leaves no room for feet! More recent designs have totally different volume distribution making more room for feet - in fact even the prankster supposedly had more foot-room.

Cartwheeling is still a fairly complex combination of moves and you will need to build technique and abdominal strength no matter what boat you pick, you can't short-cut that. After the first few sessions expect stomach cramps for about 3 days afterwards - you will never have used those muscles in that way before and they will need a few weeks to get the hang of it.

I have commitments until next week (and will have more towards the end of next week) but it might be fun to head over to Stanley if you want to try a couple of boats one evening - or book onto an evening P&P at Pinkston and let me know and I'll bring them with me (I'm messing about with OC1 and C1 there at the moment!). I still have my session+ and glide - I might need to put the seat back in the glide (not for sale, I like them both!).

*not the Y, that is the creeker!

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:22 pm

Is Pinkston actually open now? I had a look at their website and it seems to suggest it is, but info is vague. Having just got back into paddling this year after a long gap, I hadn't even heard it was being developed tbh. With this on the cards I may need to change my 'local run' and my idea of what I want in a boat and not buy such a specific boat for Stanley.

If this is open I'm assuming someone has tried it, what did you think?

Thanks

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:41 pm

paddler_linds wrote:Is Pinkston actually open now? I had a look at their website and it seems to suggest it is, but info is vague. Having just got back into paddling this year after a long gap, I hadn't even heard it was being developed tbh. With this on the cards I may need to change my 'local run' and my idea of what I want in a boat and not buy such a specific boat for Stanley.

If this is open I'm assuming someone has tried it, what did you think?

Thanks

I found the link in the forum to p&p dates after the last post, fantastic!!! So what do you think of it folks?

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by Jim » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:19 pm

Well, I like it!

Quite a short course, but the first couple of holes are working well for the playboaters - they moved some blocks around since it first opened which has improved the second hole for the short boats but I can't seem to get the Ocoee to spin in there now :)

I did a run in my Session+ on the open day and managed a couple of ends in the second hole without touching the bottom, but I'm too far out of practise to have done any more than that :)

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Re: "OLD SKOOL IS KOOL" THE BEST BOATS

Post by paddler_linds » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:47 am

Great stuff, thanks for all the replies Jim. I have emailed Pinkston and joined their mailing list to see if there are any spots coming up. I will need to get the club involved also, as this seems like the way it will be most accessible.

Can't wait!

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