Pyranha moan

Inland paddling
Hakase
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:00 pm

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by Hakase » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:05 pm

Franky wrote:
Bladepaddler wrote:I've had similar issues with my pyranha gear, my limited edition burn 3 has had 2 new ratchets after the old ones were faulty, and the foam padding came off within a few uses ( a problem I noticed at NSR with all the demo boats, there were a lot of knee pads floating about.)
I took the Lee Valley Legacy assessment last week in a Burn III. During one of several swims, a big bit of a foam detached itself and floated away down the course. I assume it was a knee pad.
I'll bet the safety people weren't very pleased with that!

I don't think that issue's specific to Pyranha -- my friends who paddle Dagger boats with their new outfitting have also noted problems with the knee pad glue. It's probably going to be worse if it's a rented boat, as well, if it's been used and abused by a lot of people...

66quinny66
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:24 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by 66quinny66 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:17 pm

To be fair, the self adhesive knee pad foam seems to be an issue everywhere. I've found one foam knee pad in the bottom of a boat that had not yet even seen the water.

User avatar
TimL@Pyranha
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:13 pm
Location: Runcorn
Contact:

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by TimL@Pyranha » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:11 pm

All

Thanks for your comments. We had an issue at the start of production of the C4S ( Connect 2014) seat where the wing nuts were coming loose. We added star washers and as far as I'm aware problem solved. Not to say that there are not already boats in the field with this problem but if this one was addressed a while ago. Not to say we are not always looking to improve our products and produce new and exciting toys all the time. If anybody is having a problem with the white wheelnuts coming loose then contact us direct and we'll get some star washers out to you.

I'm concerned about the message coming out of Cardiff as I'm aware of a maladjusted Thigh brace on one Burn III being an issue. To suggest there is a fleet of boats that have disintegrated is massively misleading.

I would also note I consider a paddler sponsored by another brand publicly slagging off the competition to be bad form. If Pyranha team paddlers were to do that then their error would be pointed out to them. Perhaps that's just me being old fashioned though.

We will shortly be announcing locations where you can demo a range of Pyranha products.
Tim
Pyranha
Runcorn

alexpethybridge
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:07 pm

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by alexpethybridge » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:58 pm

TimL@Pyranha wrote:
I'm concerned about the message coming out of Cardiff as I'm aware of a maladjusted Thigh brace on one Burn III being an issue. To suggest there is a fleet of boats that have disintegrated is massively misleading.
A significant number of owners have all had the same issue with their outfitting - namely that it falls apart. Given that the same outfitting is used across a range of pyranha kayaks I don't think it's misleading at all to suggest that a fleet of boats are disintegrating.
Some days are diamonds

Hendri Coetzee

User avatar
TimL@Pyranha
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:13 pm
Location: Runcorn
Contact:

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by TimL@Pyranha » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:24 pm

Alex.

As I've posted we are aware of the issue with C4S seats in earlier boats. This was dealt with. I have offered to sort out anybody with a boat with C4S that is having problems and indeed any problems bthey are having with their kayak.
Alex If you are having problems with your Pyranha kayak then please contact me.

We do suggest that people regularly check all fittings but obviously if things are coming loose regularly then that is a problem which we need to address. I believe we have done so.

In relation to Cardiff demo fleet . There was one Burn III there in total. It had an issue with the thigh brace which had been badly adjusted. The kayak was taken out of service while the thigh brace was sorted. To my knowledge that is the total of problems with the Cardiff demo fleet.
Tim
Pyranha
Runcorn

Franky
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by Franky » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:21 pm

Hakase wrote: I don't think that issue's specific to Pyranha -- my friends who paddle Dagger boats with their new outfitting have also noted problems with the knee pad glue.
That's disappointing, as I am considering buying a Mamba. Would probably buy one anyway as I like the way it handles.

Maybe cheap outfitting is the way to go, i.e. buying a cheaper "downgraded" old version of a boat, which many manufacturers sell. I've borrowed club GT7.8s on several whitewater trips and there are no foam kneepads at all. The interior feels pretty solid and nothing ever came off. I can't say either that I noticed feeling particularly uncomfortable either. I usually ended up with small bruises on my knees from wet exits, but I didn't notice them when paddling :)
It's probably going to be worse if it's a rented boat, as well, if it's been used and abused by a lot of people...
66quinny66 wrote: To be fair, the self adhesive knee pad foam seems to be an issue everywhere. I've found one foam knee pad in the bottom of a boat that had not yet even seen the water.
In that case I guess we customers have to like it or lump it. I can see why people moan though. £700-£1000 is a lot of money to spend on what is basically an accoutred lump of plastic [runs for cover].

Still, I know profit margins are low for kayak manufacturers. The quality of all goods tends to suffer in recessions.

User avatar
TimL@Pyranha
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:13 pm
Location: Runcorn
Contact:

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by TimL@Pyranha » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:10 pm

Franky

You're right in that there are some excellent value products out there. Based on older designs and simpler outfitting. Many people are buying these.

Kayaks have gotten cheaper in real terms or at least remained good value, especially when you take the specification into consideration. In 1998 I bought a Necky Gliss, It was £600. It was a top end boat of the time. The spec though was pretty basic and a boat of the same spec today would cost you around £500. The inflation calculator I've just used tells me that £600 in 1998 would equate to just under £1000 now. Which is where most top end Whitewater kayaks are. This is without all the new and upgraded stuff that comes on the average top end whitewater kayak these days.

Getting foam to stick is difficult for us and every manufacturer I believe. We do better now but we're limited by the technology available and also because trying to stick stuff to plastic just after ( relatively) its been moulded is the worst time to do it, or so I'm told.

I don't think the quality of kayaks has suffered at all. Customers are rightly demanding value for their money. What is shrinking generally in the industry though is R&D and so we are seeing less advancement in boat design, outfitting and materials. What generally happens is that one manufacturer comes out with something new and exciting, faster, stronger, lighter, more adjustable, comfortable and the others race to compete. Pyranha are known for a constant stream of new design ideas and driving the market with new product. In this I believe we're unsurpassed. We are enthusiasts in the products we make and we are always looking for ways we can make things better be it on whether to use this nut or that one or on bigger projects such as designing a fast whitewater kayak like the 9R. We're a pretty small team in the scale of things and I can assure you that if a customer isn't happy with something we do all we can to put things right.
Tim
Pyranha
Runcorn

enjoyer
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: London

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by enjoyer » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:59 pm

TimL@Pyranha wrote:All

We had an issue at the start of production of the C4S ( Connect 2014) seat where the wing nuts were coming loose...
Thank you for the admission. Strange you haven't mentioned the splitting seat though. I am assuming it is a side effect of the nuts coming loose.
TimL@Pyranha wrote: I would also note I consider a paddler sponsored by another brand publicly slagging off the competition to be bad form. If Pyranha team paddlers were to do that then their error would be pointed out to them. Perhaps that's just me being old fashioned though.
Perhaps not, you haven't managed an apology for example.

Also, isn't Poke a Pyranha sponsored paddler? His posts have (to my reading) camouflaged the issue rather than admitting there was a genuine problem. Is this something you need to reflect on? Perhaps I am even more old fashioned than you, as to me, belittling a true customer concern is even worse than slagging off the competition. In fairness to Poke, I always rate his opinions so I wonder if you had kept him in the picture?

As one of your affected "start of production" customers ( and long term Pyranha owner) I have refrained from joining the thread before now. I am not normally into moaning. However, for some reason hypocrisy always gets me started.

One observation i would make to all, most posters (including me) who have stated there is a problem have previously owned multiple boats so we have a benchmark as to what is "normal" and what isn't. Suggesting we just need to tighten nuts before a paddle misses the point.

I am pleased you think you have solved the problem, though I haven't encountered any proactive customer service so I am not sure how you can make your claim. By the way, I am sorting my boat out myself, by slowly working through the various problems after every paddle.

It is a shame you have taken this long to admit the issue.

By the way, the courtesy of apology in your post would have saved me writing this essay.

User avatar
TimL@Pyranha
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:13 pm
Location: Runcorn
Contact:

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by TimL@Pyranha » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:41 pm

Enjoyer

Firstly. Apologies for any problems you've had with your pyranha kayak.

I must admit that the comment about sponsored paddlers was very badly constructed and didn't really get across my meaning. I need to apoligise for this. Indeed I realised after I'd posted it but too late to edit it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this industry we're all trying to give paddlers the best stuff. Any bad stuff out there reflects badly on the whole industry and on the quality of virtually all products available through any specialist dealer is really excellent.

If people have a problem with their boat then it really helps manufacturers to be specific. Contact them and tell them (us) exactly what has gone wrong. In the past complaints, about nuts and bolts coming loose has led to changes in construction and the use of different fixings for example. However we need to know exactly which nut has come loose rather than a general moan.

I definitely agree that telling customers to simply tighten things up is not enough. If things are coming loose then please let us know. We will help and your feedback will lead to change in production where appropriate.

Enjoyer - if you haven't contacted us directly then please do contact me. We're keen for you to enjoy your kayak to its max and support from us certainly does not stop at the till or at the expiry of the warranty.

I believe Pyranha are one of the few manufacturers to stick their head above the parapet on this forum with most simply riding it out and hoping it all goes away. I hope this shows we really are bothered about our customers views on our products I can assure you they are taken on board.
Tim
Pyranha
Runcorn

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by DaveBland » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:01 pm

Blimey, I have to say, it seems most of the negative posters on here have a screw loose.

Realistically, less than a grand is not expensive for a bit of kit.
In real terms, even if the screws leave the factory all checked and tightened, they can work their way loose during transit.
Maybe it's the retailers' responsibility to check them over before selling them on? A car garage will give a vehicle a once over before it's made available to the public. Either way, tightening a few screws isn't really a big deal.
The manufacturer has been good enough to come on here and reply, [maybe a bit slow off the mark, but at least they bothered] with a pretty decent response. An apology for getting the washer type wrong would have been cool, but they have it sorted and have offered to fix anything.

We should be proud that our small nation is able to sustain a fantastic boat-maker over this many years and be supportive of them.
It's a tough world out there for all, and bashing them for a really minor issue seems counter productive.

Sounds like the Mk 3 Burn is a cracking boat and I'm keen to give one a go.
dave

Franky
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by Franky » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:02 am

DaveBland wrote:Blimey, I have to say, it seems most of the negative posters on here have a screw loose.

Realistically, less than a grand is not expensive for a bit of kit.
I don't think that kayaks are overpriced, but for many people they're a significant outlay.
In real terms, even if the screws leave the factory all checked and tightened, they can work their way loose during transit.
Maybe it's the retailers' responsibility to check them over before selling them on? A car garage will give a vehicle a once over before it's made available to the public. Either way, tightening a few screws isn't really a big deal.
The manufacturer has been good enough to come on here and reply, [maybe a bit slow off the mark, but at least they bothered] with a pretty decent response. An apology for getting the washer type wrong would have been cool, but they have it sorted and have offered to fix anything.
Yes and I applaud Tim L's honest and constructive responses, which would be more likely to make me buy a Pyranha than "You're a bunch of whingers, you expect too much, I don't know why we bother with you" that is quite common these days from customer support departments.

enjoyer
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: London

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by enjoyer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:25 am

Tim, thank you for your apology.
DaveBland wrote: In real terms, even if the screws leave the factory all checked and tightened, they can work their way loose during transit.
I think you have missed the point. This was a product defect. Tim has admitted it. Tightening alone doesn't work.
DaveBland wrote: We should be proud that our small nation is able to sustain a fantastic boat-maker over this many years and be supportive of them.
It's a tough world out there for all, and bashing them for a really minor issue seems counter productive.
I agree with your first sentence. Thats why I have owned a mark 1, 2 and 3.

The counter argument is that it isn't a complex issue so it should have been resolved before getting anywhere near a customer. Once known it should have been dealt with transparently, quickly and constructively. Tim's post annoyed me because it was late in coming, didn't show any remorse and instead focused on competitor comments rather than Pyranha communications on the issue.
DaveBland wrote: Sounds like the Mk 3 Burn is a cracking boat and I'm keen to give one a go.
I am sure you will love it.

My thanks to Tim for taking my comments on board.

Yew
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by Yew » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:52 am

Having received my Connect-river spec jed 2 weeks ago. I feel its time for a good story about pyranha boats. On my boat everything has stayed attatched, apart from a few bits of foam I glued in badly. But thats my fault and I'll be taking some fine sandpaper to the areas, to key the surface to get a better attatchment. But everything that pyranha have put in has stayed in, and The 'club' back rest performs suprisingly well with a ratcheted backband :D

So, so far I'm happy with my boat especially considering the price of Connect-River Jeds!

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3351
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by TechnoEngineer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:25 pm

enjoyer wrote: Strange you haven't mentioned the splitting seat though. I am assuming it is a side effect of the nuts coming loose.
I don't agree - in my XL Burn I discovered that the seat is simply a bad fit. I bought some polycarbonate sheet, cut it into a number of pieces and drilled holes to make shims to go between the seat and the mounts, to make it a better fit.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / Kodiak / My Videos

enjoyer
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: London

Re: Pyranha moan

Post by enjoyer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:48 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:
enjoyer wrote: Strange you haven't mentioned the splitting seat though. I am assuming it is a side effect of the nuts coming loose.
I don't agree - in my XL Burn I discovered that the seat is simply a bad fit. I bought some polycarbonate sheet, cut it into a number of pieces and drilled holes to make shims to go between the seat and the mounts, to make it a better fit.
Actually, you have triggered a memory and I agree with you. I forgot that I have used oversized washers as shims, and some elongated bolts and nylon lock nuts to tackle this aspect. I am not sure I have spread the compression loadings adequately so the polycarbonate sheet route sounds a better solution.

Once all the various seat issues are sorted it is a great boat (genuinely). Having taken Tim's apology on board I really want to make this point clear.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”