Tryweryn pay and play

Inland paddling
User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3351
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:59 pm

Well I guess it would be feasible to be dropped onto the river from a helicopter to avoid paying the land-access charge, although I think it would cost a bit more than £7 :P

Also I would suggest that water from negotiated dam-releases does not necessarily equate to non-negotiated water?

Has anyone used the shuttle service?
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / Kodiak / My Videos

Yew
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Yew » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:03 pm

"They" are not Canoe Wales (CW), but Canoe Wales Sales and Services.
So they are attempting to justify position contrary to their views on access by saying that it is not Canoe Wales whom has decided to charge, but a body called 'Canoe Wales Sales and Services'?

User avatar
Sickboy
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 4:44 pm
Location: se london

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Sickboy » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:52 pm

Yew wrote:
"They" are not Canoe Wales (CW), but Canoe Wales Sales and Services.
So they are attempting to justify position contrary to their views on access by saying that it is not Canoe Wales whom has decided to charge, but a body called 'Canoe Wales Sales and Services'?
Registered in Luxembourg by any chance?
Rum and coke, best served by the pint.

paddletastic2
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Coventry
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by paddletastic2 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:35 pm

Yew wrote:
"They" are not Canoe Wales (CW), but Canoe Wales Sales and Services.
So they are attempting to justify position contrary to their views on access by saying that it is not Canoe Wales whom has decided to charge, but a body called 'Canoe Wales Sales and Services'?
Canoe Wales Sales and Services - a wholly owned subsidiary of Canoe Wales. They are entirely owned by the governing body. Canoe Wales need to account for the actions here.

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Mark R » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:53 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:Latest response. This looks like a much clearer statement of their position and it is exactly what we have understood and they have declined to admit.
Mark Williamson Fact: Most people are supportive and understanding of our attempts to save the facility at CT for future generations.
That is an interesting interpretation of the word 'fact'.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
quicky
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: Wirral,

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by quicky » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:12 pm

Mark R wrote:
Adrian Cooper wrote:Latest response. This looks like a much clearer statement of their position and it is exactly what we have understood and they have declined to admit.
Mark Williamson Fact: Most people are supportive and understanding of our attempts to save the facility at CT for future generations.
That is an interesting interpretation of the word 'fact'.
FACT: Are they making it up as they go along.....

xrayhead
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:55 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by xrayhead » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:34 am

Reading this thread its clear the centre has not handled this at all well! Surly the wise thing for everyone is to more forward and make sure access to this is not removed completely?

QUOTE from previous thread;
I'm just wondering what would happen if the centre closed altogether due to funding reasons? Who owns the land and more importantly would they then just make it private property all the way up to the dam?

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Mark Dixon » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:39 am

Without reading through the whole thread how are they policing this £7 payment? I am probably going up in Summer and spend 1 day at Treweryn and 1 day at Snowdon, I dont have a problem with paying as its minimal in my overall costs but understand peoples concerns if its been badly managed and feel its a bit much for locals who may just want a quick 30 minute blast in the morning.
Mark

User avatar
BigPhil
Posts: 404
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:17 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by BigPhil » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:15 am

Mark Dixon wrote:Without reading through the whole thread how are they policing this £7 payment? I am probably going up in Summer and spend 1 day at Treweryn and 1 day at Snowdon, I dont have a problem with paying as its minimal in my overall costs but understand peoples concerns if its been badly managed and feel its a bit much for locals who may just want a quick 30 minute blast in the morning.
Mark
This is exactly my normal scenario on the Trywern. I'll meet friends there for a quick paddle, maybe an hour or so and then maybe grab a cup of tea in the cafe and then go for a walk/climb in the hills or go and paddle a different river. Even for all day £14 seems excessive (and what are you paying for?) but for a short session it's ridiculous. As I said before I am happy to pay for parking and use the cafe and I occasionally do courses there and would happily use the Trywern's providers for this if they were competitive.

Phil

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Mark Dixon » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:35 am

BigPhil wrote:
Mark Dixon wrote:Without reading through the whole thread how are they policing this £7 payment? I am probably going up in Summer and spend 1 day at Treweryn and 1 day at Snowdon, I dont have a problem with paying as its minimal in my overall costs but understand peoples concerns if its been badly managed and feel its a bit much for locals who may just want a quick 30 minute blast in the morning.
Mark
This is exactly my normal scenario on the Trywern. I'll meet friends there for a quick paddle, maybe an hour or so and then maybe grab a cup of tea in the cafe and then go for a walk/climb in the hills or go and paddle a different river. Even for all day £14 seems excessive (and what are you paying for?) but for a short session it's ridiculous. As I said before I am happy to pay for parking and use the cafe and I occasionally do courses there and would happily use the Trywern's providers for this if they were competitive.

Phil
We are ok as its mostly a club trip so will be there for the day, havent been fortunate enough to come up when its been solid flows elsewhere apart from Dee, but if we do tbh Iwont be paddling Treweryn but experiencing other rivers

adski
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:38 am
Location: Preston Area

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by adski » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:58 pm

I paddled last Saturday as there wasn't much water up north. We had a coffee, spoke to the manager (he was also making the tea in the café) who informed me that the £7 was for using the facilities and NOT access to the river. It looked like it has really affected the site, for a sunny day with low water elsewhere it was a really empty Tryweryn with very few boaters.

SimonMW
Posts: 2194
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:39 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by SimonMW » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:05 pm

for a sunny day with low water elsewhere it was a really empty Tryweryn with very few boaters.
Funny because he has been saying this is has been the busiest March ever!
who informed me that the £7 was for using the facilities and NOT access to the river
Mr Williamson appears to be rather confused and doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint his own position. On the one hand he says that the river isn't a facility and that the fee isn't to access the river, yet on the other hand he says that those who only pay for the carpark and then get on the river are in breach of their terms.

Either the fee pays for access to the river as a facility or it doesn't. Yet he doesn't seem to be able to answer this simple question without contradicting himself.

xrayhead
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:55 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by xrayhead » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:39 pm

.




Can someone please post on there Facebook page and ask them to accept there friend request's!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been waiting for 4 months.....




.

User avatar
Big Henry
Posts: 1920
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:31 am
Location: North East

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Big Henry » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:37 pm

SimonMW wrote:Either the fee pays for access to the river as a facility or it doesn't. Yet he doesn't seem to be able to answer this simple question without contradicting himself.
How about removing all other variables for him? Can someone ask:
If my wife were to drop me off at the side of the road outside the car park, already fully kitted up, and I was to walk onto and across the site carrying my boat and get straight onto the river (without using the car park, changing room or any other facilities) would you expect me to pay, and if so, specifically what would I be actually paying for?

flipt
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:25 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by flipt » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:00 pm

Xrayhead, the land is owned by natural resource wales (welsh government.....who coincidentally at least part run coed y brenin MTB centre) and leased to Canolfan Tryweryn who are owned by Canoe Wales.

Mark Dixon - I've been there a few times.....its not policed at all, and mark Williamson (manager) has today confirmed they won't be chasing people up who don't pay.

It's all completely rediculous.

Personally I feel the level of non support needs to be shown - Pam's petition gained 770 signatures in a couple of days.....what could be gained in a few weeks?

Its fairly obvious that Mark Williamson is just a commercial manager with no interest in kayaking. It also seems that Canoe Wales are using him as their scapegoat and that's sad.

It seems possible that the governing body in wales are actually now mostly representing their commercial rafting interest (as thats where 90% of their income is from) with far more vigour than something as petty as kayaking.
Gradientfood.com - a sandwich bar in Llangollen.

User avatar
quicky
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: Wirral,

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by quicky » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:36 pm

Mark has stated they had 60 people sign on at the weekend. Do the rafters sign in as well as a few people who were there on sat have said different/// (it was quiet)

TwoHats
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 9:09 am

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by TwoHats » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:48 pm

Marks latest response.
Mark Williamson: Okay, for those who really need it spelled out. There is no conflict with the access policy. The policy is about the right to navigate freely a river or waterway from point a to point b without paying everyone in between. From the access policy, as pointed out above and directed by me in the post: 3 The right to access the river at an appropriate point
Canoe Wales supports the right to enter and leave the water in places where there is already public access, or where access, conditional or otherwise, is provided. Please note the word conditional and note I have already stated that CW pay for entry for paddlers on the Llugwy. CT is a private facility. Pay to use/enter the facility is a condition of using that facility and once you've done that you can get on and off the water as much as you want. Please understand the access policy is about the right to navigate not the right to paddle where you polease, when you want, traipsing across private property, through fields, gardens whatever...It is about your right, once on the water to get from a to b without toll charges all along the way. I hope that's clear enough and if not...Pick up the Phone. THERE IS NO CONFLICT
He has so far been unable to explain why rafters,spectators, dog walkers etc have only to pay a £3 parking fee to have exactly the same access to the centres facilities, including access to private footpaths up to the rivers edge, as kayakers who he expects to pay a minimum of £7 yet none of this charge is for accessing the river?

SimonMW
Posts: 2194
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:39 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by SimonMW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:35 pm

He's not a paddler. He's a martial arts school owner and seemingly involved in rental of some sort, so probably has no clue about how CT's decision relates to access or the debate as a whole.

He probably is a scapegoat. I feel sorry for him in a way, but he should at least look into the history of it all.

icklepaddler
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by icklepaddler » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:57 pm

I still haven't worked out why, if funding was an issue, they didn't just;
1) Conduct a review of their costs / renegotiate contracts / assess staffing levels.
2) Raise the parking charge
3) If non payment of parking was an issue, seek to stamp it out or raise it in the paddling community
4) Identify how to maximise profits ie charge for showers / use of changing facilities
5) Add value that could be charged for at extra rate, ie shuttles
6) Increase cost of rafting as it is the rafting experience that costs the most to supply. Silly me, I forgot that there is now serious competition in the form of lee valley that will steal a lot of corporate customers.

I just cand understand wby they went straight to the solution most likely to alienate paddlers? Paddlers who CW / CT are designed to serve.

And all this "speak to me" nonsense is a waste of time, messages like this need to be disseminated throughout whole ommunity.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by DaveBland » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:37 pm

To a degree I see his point. If as he specified, the charge is for permission to access the river, not for navigation rights, then the stance on access is not conflicted.
I take the point about charging a different amount for paddlers to access the river paths as walkers, but if it's a private concern, they can charge whoever, whatever.

Where they clearly have gone wrong is in how they have communicated the changes and to be honest, as the post above says, the way they are charging.

A message sent out that they need to raise some money and make it more profitable together with tighter parking controls and maybe some innovative facilities would seem to make more sense.
It's a great resource for paddlers and should be the No.1 'artificial' venue.

Shame they can't get it right.
dave

User avatar
Strad
Posts: 1886
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:27 am
Location: The Beautiful Borders of Scotland
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Strad » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:00 pm

Very well put Dave.

All I will say is next time I go I will probably pay the £7 because I am likely to use the clear facilities - shuttle and showers as well accessing the water, makes it an easy choice for me....
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

SimonMW
Posts: 2194
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:39 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by SimonMW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:55 pm

If as he specified, the charge is for permission to access the river
This is the contradiction, Dave. He has said previously that the fee isn't to access the river.

User avatar
Strad
Posts: 1886
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:27 am
Location: The Beautiful Borders of Scotland
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Strad » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:28 pm

SimonMW wrote:
If as he specified, the charge is for permission to access the river
This is the contradiction, Dave. He has said previously that the fee isn't to access the river.
We have to be very careful on access along the river compared to access over land to the river - I think this is the subtlety that is getting lost among the many quotes. My understanding is that he is saying access along the river is free, but he wants to charge for access over the land to the river. Then we end up dropping into the normal situation you have with every land owner - is the land private / open access / are the footpaths footpaths in the legal sense etc etc...
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

SimonMW
Posts: 2194
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:39 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by SimonMW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:37 pm

Oh I realise that. But he can't answer why we need to pay £14 for facilities we don't use. I'd be happy to pay a small launch fee like I do at Symonds Yat. But I'm not going to pay £14 just because there's a changing room built for their rafting clients that I don't use. Cardiff costs £12.50 and that's a managed pumped course with full time safety staff. Plus spectators don't have to pay there.

What is quite amusing is that Mark says that Tryweryn is a natural river when it suits him to say why we should go there instead of Cardiff, but strangely he says that it isn't a natural river when he is trying to sledgehammer people into paying the fees.

The bottom line is that CT is too expensive, and I already know of clubs who have cancelled their trips there as a result of it. Mark can claim all he likes about it being really popular (though from people have been saying who have been there the reality doesn't seem to match up to what he says about numbers), the fact of the matter is that they have gone about this in a totally arse about tit way.

I would be interested to know whether all the slalom team individuals have to pay the fee each time they go there to practice?

flipt
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:25 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by flipt » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:19 pm

An interesting point regarding the difference between spectator and paddler;
Mark Williamson did confirm that there was no need for paddlers using the lower section of river to pay any fee other than parking, sighting the reason that those paddlers require none of the facilities.
So whats the difference for those using the upper?

An alternate point where some still argue a difference where the upper is concerned....
Marks commeny establishes that point of river bank for access to the lower as a permitted egress point?
Its also worth considering which exact parts of the bank are owned by Welsh Water whom have raised no issue. Without having seen the red line drawing, my guess is that the road through the site that gives access to the Welsh water site is not part of CT?
Gradientfood.com - a sandwich bar in Llangollen.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by DaveBland » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:02 pm

I agree totally - the rationale of the charging makes no sense, however my point is that if it's a private concern, they can do what they like.
He is being very clear [now] that the charge is for access to the river over the land, not for the actual navigation down the river.

If I have a hot tub in my garden and want to charge 10 quid for folks to use it, I can. If I put a shower in for folks to use, it doesn't mean you pay less if you don't fancy the shower after. Oh and I feel like charging red head kids only a fiver, but if you turn up in a red car, it's 20 quid.

Like I said, badly handled and thought out, but the initial thrust of this thread was about a contradiction with the CW access policy. Finally, after how many months, they have made it clear. But all the dithering and poor communication hasn't exactly helped CWs cause access wise has it.

Muppets.
dave

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Mark Dixon » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:59 pm

Went to Trweryn yesterday and paid my £7 gladly, enjoyed a couple shuttles from cafe to top but wasnt impressed with the fact they were on the hour only, there was about 20 in our group so we paid £140, there was a lot of people paddling and on the hour the shuttle bus had to do about 3 trips. This to me seemed a bit stupid and at one point there was a big queue at half past the hour waiting, the driver was stood around doing nothing, generally talking to people and also rebuffing suggestions to run some people up rather than wait until the top of hour and loads of people. The driver went and got the manager who agreed to take some paddlers to the top but said it would not be done again.
Firstly I would question why Canoe Wales members are paying for a member of staff to be stood around doing nothing (considering their reported bad accounting) and secondly I would question Canoe Wales customer relations considering many were against the charge and paying customers were waiting watching a member of staff not working.
It was quite clear paddlers were second place as far as any shuttles were concerned, I have no issues with paying if shuttles are there but feel Treweryn need to accommadate paddlers a little more and be a little more reasonable rather than just collect money.
Mark

andpops
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:26 am

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by andpops » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:55 pm

Additionally to what as been already said, this is my experience of the customer service given by the centre.
I had listened to the reasons for the charge. I made the decision to re-join the BCU £39 and then pay my £7.
So I am now eligible to use the shuttle service, on my last visit the shuttle service was stopped at 3:00 but the water was not due to go off until 6:30, we then ask if we did a run down after 3:00 could the mini bus take us back up leaving our boats at the centre, so we could collect our cars from the top, the answer was no. Do I now feel the BCU fee and the fee charge by the Tryweryn is far NO will I be joining the BCU next year NO do I feel stupid YES.

Smithy1
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:03 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Smithy1 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:51 pm

When it started up it was great and working well. The last few times there has been a lot more waiting about and no end of day shuttle back from Bala. I understand that rafts get priority as they bring in more revenue, but extra shuttles at busy times are needed.

Ian5
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:21 pm

Re: Tryweryn pay and play

Post by Ian5 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:26 pm

We had a mixed experience this weekend. Turned up at 5 to one and the shuttle had apparently gone.
Had lunch and made sure we were keeping an eye on things for the 2 pm shuttle, but no bus. Asked a few times but were told that they were busy. Raft buses leaving every few minutes.

Conversation with a raft guide and manager? Who suggested that shuttles were put on as a favour and we could not rely on them. We're eventually put on a raft shuttle.

Later on Saturday and then last thing on Sunday received excellent help from two different drivers, who nothing was too much trouble.

From our point of view it would be useful to know that they will run on the hour and be reliable or that you just take your chance. Then you can plan the day around it.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”