T-rescue

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John K
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Re: T-rescue

Post by John K »

On a slight tangent, does anyone actually rate a T-rescue as a seriously usable technique? It works OK when it's pre-planned, or in a pool session where you know that someone is a couple of paddle strokes away, but does it ever actually get used in anger on white water?

I doubt that many people who are likely to need a T-rescue would have the composure to wait long enough to make it viable. Thoughts?

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

Crawley Down near Gatwick. Ross is a long way from here! Did think about trying something like this but there isn't much professional coaching around here plus after 1/2 hour of apperently improving hip flick in the pool I defaulted to pull hard only just made it. Last time out dispite having a relatively good pool session on Friday (I was even thinking it would work) Sunday saw asap spray deck pulling. Got 7 weeks until whitewater weekend and rather more importantly a drysuit for swimming in relative comfort.
John K wrote:On a slight tangent, does anyone actually rate a T-rescue as a seriously usable technique? It works OK when it's pre-planned, or in a pool session where you know that someone is a couple of paddle strokes away, but does it ever actually get used in anger on white water?

I doubt that many people who are likely to need a T-rescue would have the composure to wait long enough to make it viable. Thoughts?
Normally there's a boat there as I surface so it would be viable it only takes 5 seconds max to get out. Mostly fall over on drops so it's pretty obvious in advance where the rescue boat needs to be. Got to admit I've seen quite a few people fished out this way and its a lot easier than swimming + chase the boat and paddle game. It looks like some of a successful roll can be learnt trying a t-rescue too and for certain the pull really hard method won't work when rolling!!
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Re: T-rescue

Post by noodles »

Hi gp girl,

I've been where you are so understand your frustration. My suggestion is also to do a rolling course with Ross Montandon. Get in touch with him and ask if he could run a course that you can get to. I did this and he put a course at HPP. It was so helpful and made such a difference to my rolling.

Don't be so hard on yourself, it takes a while to transfer pool skills to an unexpected capsize on a river. It will come! I can also recommend the coaching sessions at Lee Valley. They are reasonably priced and progressive.

Niki

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

It took 6+ sessions with at least 5 diffrent coaches ending up with 2 coaches at once to get 1 successful pool rescue ( ie I got upright technique still crap) in 2012/2013 attempt. I swam 4 times over the summer all (t-rescueable) 4 more on the beginners whitewater weekend 3 rescuable and 2 more this year 1 rescueable. After 7 sessions this time round I went straight for the deck and swam again.....you can see just how bad it's all got.

Topped off with this yesterday
gp.girl wrote:No progress, no useable hip flick and you don't want to see the t-rescue except under don't do this.......
Wasn't so at the start before as I could kid myself I hadn't quite got it...

Lee valley starts in March it is outdoor so I can't blame them and they are rolling sessions so I'm really not anywhere near that :(
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Re: T-rescue

Post by SimonMW »

GP-girl, just a few observations, they are meant to help rather than to criticise. It is clear that you are having confidence issues with this side of things, and maybe it has built into an obsession.

Sometimes if we try too hard to do something it can actually make things worse and more frustrating, which is why I PM'd you about doing some relaxation underwater exercises and not trying to roll or come up at all. Remember I told you NOT to try and roll. Just spend some time underwater moving the blade around, particularly near the surface. You need to be relaxed.

Now, if you are trying very hard to do something, especially if it is frustrating you a lot, this alone can cause tension and can result in you trying to force a movement, which ends up failing, and a self fulfilling prophecy.

But one thing you absolutely must not do is keep telling yourself that you are not capable of doing this, that or the other. If you are starting from the point of view of just accepting that you are going to fail from the outset you won't be doing yourself any favours. This mindset will be filling your practice time and stopping you from enjoying things.

We all swim. I can roll, yet I still swim. Is it frustrating? Yes, it is. But I can help things along.

For example if I go to a river and think "Oh my god I'm going to swim, and then everything will be crap, and I'll be cold, and the world will be dark" then I can absolutely guarantee you that I will swim, and I will feel crap.

If on the other hand I go to the river thinking "Hey, it's going to be great today. I'm going to give it my best shot, but if I come out of my boat I'll get wet. So what, it's kayaking and I enjoy getting wet, it's all part of it." Then I can guarantee you that I'll be paddling more positively that day and if I come out of my boat I'll be laughing more than cursing at myself.

So, spend some time doing those orientation exercises I PM'd you about. Forget about the T-rescue and rolling etc for a while. There are so many other more important, and fun things to work on in kayaking. Posture, stroke placement, learning how to read the river better etc etc etc. Heck, even just enjoying being in the environment!

But if you build your own brick wall and keep telling yourself that you won't improve at anything until you can do a T-rescue you won't progress at anything and will just continue to foster a negative mindset. And don't tell yourself that you are years off being able to roll either. Just forget about all that for a while or you'll ruin the possible fun you could be having. Like others I would question the viability of a T-rescue in white water anyway. I've seen people doing it, but it has always struck me as a bit dodgy sitting under the boat in the middle of a rapid tapping hands on the hull with the expectation that someone will definitely get to you. After all how long do you wait for?

Yep, just forget about it for a while and focus on other aspects of boating, as well as a bit of a mindset change. Focus on small things at a time. As Dan Butler told me, kayaking is like baking a cake. There are many ingredients that you need to collect. So focus on one of the other ingredients.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Wadhamite »

John K wrote:On a slight tangent, does anyone actually rate a T-rescue as a seriously usable technique? It works OK when it's pre-planned, or in a pool session where you know that someone is a couple of paddle strokes away, but does it ever actually get used in anger on white water?

I doubt that many people who are likely to need a T-rescue would have the composure to wait long enough to make it viable. Thoughts?
It's good during polo. Especially if you've dropped your paddle to do a massive two handed throw-in and been pushed in...
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Mikers »

Seeing the words "hip flick" always fill me with despair. The term is totally inadequate. It doesn't describe what to do with your hips. It does describe how you should do it though, apparently there should be a "flick". According to Merriam Webster, a flick is a sharp jerky stroke of movement. I'd suggest that a sharp jerky movement doesn't help and isn't necessary.

To all the coaches listening, next time you use the words "hip flick" to tell a novice what to do, please pause to ask them what they have actually understood this instruction to mean. I suspect they'll look at you blankly.


For gp girl and anyone else struggling. This is what I'd suggest.

Sit in your boat and take hold of the rescuers boat. Or the side of the pool. One hand or two, doesn't matter.

Keeping your boat as flat to the water as possible, lean over on the side that your holding on and dip your ear in the water. So if the rescuer is on your right, dip your right ear. If you're really flexible, your boat will hardly move. Most people won't be able to do this without applying a little edge.

Once the side of your head is wet, hold for five seconds and sit up slowly. Try to keep the boat as flat as possible throughout. Sitting up should require very little effort and almost no upper body strength.

Repeat until you're comfortable with the exercise.

Next lean over as before. Once your ear is in the water, pause briefly then gently roll the boat over so that it's in the capsized position. There is no need to get your head any wetter than it already is.
To get up, first roll the boat back to the upright position (keeping your ear wet throughout), then pause, then sit up exactly as before.

Once again, repeat until comfortable. When you can do this easily, you're ready to fully capsize and eventually release your hold on the rescuers boat.

The difficult bit is learning to roll the boat from capsized to upright whilst keeping your head in the water. You need to separate the movement of the boat with the movement of your head. It is possible to do things the other way round eg. lift your head before you roll your boat, but it will require 100x the effort and it will make learning to roll almost impossible.


HTH & see, no "hip flick" necessary.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I think it was Manuel who said ''I learn it frrrom a boook''.


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Re: T-rescue

Post by twicezero »

John K wrote:On a slight tangent, does anyone actually rate a T-rescue as a seriously usable technique? It works OK when it's pre-planned, or in a pool session where you know that someone is a couple of paddle strokes away, but does it ever actually get used in anger on white water?

I doubt that many people who are likely to need a T-rescue would have the composure to wait long enough to make it viable. Thoughts?
Well I certainly can't call myself composed and I've been t-rescued on the Dee by a coach a few years back. I think it works with low ratio coaching on simple rapids yur. Saves a whole lot of faff, and moves the sessions on. (Handy coaching on flat too, but you didn't ask :) )

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

Trapped nerve in back so won't be paddling for a while. Oh and Sundays trip cancelled due to weather not that I would have been going anyway.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by WaterStillScaresMe »

Mikers wrote:Seeing the words "hip flick" always fill me with despair. The term is totally inadequate. It doesn't describe what to do with your hips. It does describe how you should do it though, apparently there should be a "flick". According to Merriam Webster, a flick is a sharp jerky stroke of movement. I'd suggest that a sharp jerky movement doesn't help and isn't necessary.

To all the coaches listening, next time you use the words "hip flick" to tell a novice what to do, please pause to ask them what they have actually understood this instruction to mean. I suspect they'll look at you blankly.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
This phrase makes people think it's all about exact timing, strength, sudden movements. I really hate this phrase (in the context of teaching people to roll - it may be useful shorthand in other settings). My standard phrase - as part of a taught session is (feel free to criticise of course) "turn the boat the right way up first using your [hips] and then..." (for 'hips' substitute 'knees' 'legs' 'that turny thing you just did' or 'that movement you've just learned' as appropriate for the particular student).

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

After a few missed pool sessions for trapped nerve CAP had a whitewater weekend, no water on friday meant a sneeky go on a resevoir for some skills coaching! In a moment of insanity I decided to try this at the end...



First time in all my kit and anywhere except the pool.

Liked the Nano, its owner had it back for the WW though :)
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Re: T-rescue

Post by chriscw »

It is best to build up to T rescue in steps as several others have said.

First using the bar on the side of the pool laying on you side and flicking the boat up.

Then allowing you self to go right upside down and changing which hand is on the bar as you go.

If you are getting the ip flick right then the effort you use with your arms will be pretty minimal if its a struggle to push yourself back upright get some help with what is happening inside your boat.

Another good drill before you get to practising boat to boat is to capsize with a helper beside you keep yourself lent forwards touching the bow/deck of your boat and have them flip you back over, get someone who has been trained to do this as your helper. After a couple of times just being brought more or less straight back then get them to wait until you bacng on the side of your boat and count to 5 before doing it. Once happy with that increase to 10, 15 20 and perhaps 30. You are building your comfort zone for being upside down in your boat.

Next go halfway over holding the bow of a boat and again get the flick right so that you are not having to use a lot of effort.

Once happy with that then go on to going over further and changing hands as you go. When coming back up it may be easier to take a bit of time to get your body close to the surface before stating your hip flick.

Finally move on to letting go of the rescue boat as you go over and finding it again. Then going over without holding on at all.

Do all this practice wearing a buoyancy aid in the pool and perhaps a helmet too.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

Once there ie head by boat I stopped and tried to flick the boat over, coundn't feel a thing no idea what to pull/push/flick etc and no stength to do it. It's a really weird feeling!

Get the same sort of effect trying this. I can get bit of movement in my hip, both legs to move but the shoulder is staying on the ground until I lever it up with my arm exactly the same as the video.

1, Sit on the floor with your knees slightly bent as though you are in a kayak.
2, Flop over onto your side.
3, Sit up without using your hands or arms.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by WaterStillScaresMe »

Remember this: it's not strength that does it, it's teaching your body to do a specific movement. You do this in the video briefly at 1:03 and again at 1:04... that moment when the boat turns a bit while you stay still.

A good coach could probably teach you this in 15 minutes or so... if those around you aren't managing to do this try getting some teaching from someone else. This needn't feel personal - lots of people need something specific and good coaches are able to recognise when their toolbelt of ideas/techniques/behaviours isn't sufficient to teach a specific person very well (I'd propose that all coaches will find occasional people who they can't teach well - it's human nature that some pairs of people just don't connect in the right way).

I could propose all sorts of exercises on dry land, but if you can find someone good to teach you it'll be a hundred times faster.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by 66quinny66 »

gp.girl wrote:After a few missed pool sessions for trapped nerve CAP had a whitewater weekend, no water on friday meant a sneeky go on a resevoir for some skills coaching! In a moment of insanity I decided to try this at the end...



First time in all my kit and anywhere except the pool.

Liked the Nano, its owner had it back for the WW though :)
The Nano is a pretty wide, flat bottomed boat with a typical Pyranha low seating position and although you probably wouldn't describe it as textbook, you got it back up. I would take this as a big positive, particularly given your previous thoughts and feelings.
As pointed out above, that bit where you get the boat to roll slightly without your body moving too much is the key.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by goatboy »

WaterStillScaresMe wrote:
Mikers wrote:Seeing the words "hip flick" always fill me with despair. The term is totally inadequate. It doesn't describe what to do with your hips. It does describe how you should do it though, apparently there should be a "flick". According to Merriam Webster, a flick is a sharp jerky stroke of movement. I'd suggest that a sharp jerky movement doesn't help and isn't necessary.

To all the coaches listening, next time you use the words "hip flick" to tell a novice what to do, please pause to ask them what they have actually understood this instruction to mean. I suspect they'll look at you blankly.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
This phrase makes people think it's all about exact timing, strength, sudden movements. I really hate this phrase (in the context of teaching people to roll - it may be useful shorthand in other settings). My standard phrase - as part of a taught session is (feel free to criticise of course) "turn the boat the right way up first using your [hips] and then..." (for 'hips' substitute 'knees' 'legs' 'that turny thing you just did' or 'that movement you've just learned' as appropriate for the particular student).
I so agree with this. The idea of a 'hip flick' should be considered as outdated as the 'telemark turn', or 'slap for support' (both of which were standard when I was learning ... not that I'm 'of a certain age').

The actual motion is like when you're in bed in the morning & want to turn over, but are feeling too sleepy to actually sit up. You hang on to the pillow, keep your head & upper body still, and slowly rotate the rest. The upper half doesn't follow until it absolutely has to.

Apologies if the analogy doesn't work for you! Alternatively, have a look at some video of the Greenland style sea boaters, to see how far from an actual 'flick' a roll can be.

G.B.

P.S. As for the video - upright is upright ... that's what it's about! When you've done it once, you can remember how it feels to get there. Once you know that you can do it, then you can work on making it smooth / effortless.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by mark62 »

I am not a coach but in the video you are not leaning back at all. I think that is the only reason you're struggling with the T rescue. You need to lean back as far as you can, so (when you're upside down) the back of your head is touching the back of your boat if possible. On a training session we tried both ways and the leaning back way was almost effortless. The sat upright way required a lot of arm strength. Grab bow of rescue boat, leanback whilst pushing on bow. Good luck.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Anyone suggesting leaning right back in a boat should try this with the boat flat on the water, lean right back on the stern deck and then try to roll or otherwise control the boat along its long axis. It is extremely difficult. Sitting upright gives you much more control of the boat in this direction.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Garry »

I am with Adrian on this one, but perhaps could add a bit of explanation. When learning to right the boat after a capsize (roll or T-Rescue) I like to visualise the technique as the difference between righting a dynghy with a fixed mast and sail, that has to be draged through the water at 90 degrees to the boat, and righting a wind surfer where the mast and sail is effectively hinged at the deck allowing the board/boat to rotate indepenendtly of the mast.

So in relation to the kayak and T-Rescue/roll. by leaning back you are allowing this hinge effect to work and not lifting the body out of the water just rolling the boat, you could lean back to acheive thsio but that makes you unsatble as Adrian says BUT you can also do this in "sitting upright" mode as long as you let the body float on the water whilts you rotate the boat. In effect you lay on the water not the back deck and "hinge" at the waist to acheive this. The reason many people find this hard is that you need quite good flexibility and strength in the core muscles to do it properly and most people dont have that from ordinary daily life. It takes a bit of effort to develop this strength/flexibility in the core.

Young people tend to be better at it than older people but it can be developed.

So instead of leaning back in your T-rescue practice by laying your head on the deck of the boat that is helpng you and, whilst keeping your head there, roll the boat all the way upright. Only when you have the boat fully upright do you allow yourself to lift your head off the rescuers deck and recover back to the sitting up position, but your body stays pretty much at right angles to the boat throughout.

Sorry, long verbal description better done with models but think windsurfer mast foot where your waist is and let the sail (your body) float on the water at right angles to the boat whilst you right the boat.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Strad »

Good explanation Garry.

I would note that back deck rolls and front decks rolls do have their uses - but learn as Garry notes first...
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Garry »

Indeed, did not intend to get into additional complexity for what I would consider a true "back deck roll" e.g. as used by play-boaters/others to roll quickly with minimum water drag - even without getting the head wet if done well/in the right boat- and so remain on a surf wave. Agree it is different and certainly has its place (though whole other debate as to what that place is :-) ) but potenially involves even more core strength/flexibility, as done well it requires a pull down with the toes from the core on the front of the boat in addition to general flexibility and rotation, so as to "dip" the nose of the boat and keep the head dry during the rotation :-) The degree of flexibility/core strength required to actually keep the head dry during a back deck roll is, in my experience, difficult to acheive if you started learning this beyond age 40 :-(

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Re: T-rescue

Post by davebrads »

Adrian Cooper wrote:Anyone suggesting leaning right back in a boat should try this with the boat flat on the water, lean right back on the stern deck and then try to roll or otherwise control the boat along its long axis. It is extremely difficult. Sitting upright gives you much more control of the boat in this direction.
But lean back and lie in the water and it is very easy to control the boat, and this is really what is being suggested. To minimise the amount of effort required to right the boat you need to keep as much of the body as possible immersed for as long as possible. If you are sitting up straight when trying to right some kind of creek boat you can't get very far before you have to lever your body out of the water, and that is what causes all the strain. I've never seen anyone hand roll without leaning back, I expect it's not possible. So mark62 is right when he says if you want to reduce the amount of effort required to right the boat, lean back.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Mark Dixon »

Just watched your video and to make life easier why not try and rest your head on the bow of the rescuing boat? you can then put all your effort into the hip flick and will naturally push down with your head rather than lift your head and try and use your arms more as in the video.
I have taught many people the T rescue but in reality I rarely see it used as a rescue unless its preplanned, I sometimes do hand surfing in holes and rather than hand roll I'll T rescue so not to strain my shoulder. Also whilst I've been with people practising some WW rolling for 1st time we've used it to save boat rescuing etc (in safe conditions of course)
You just need to relax and be happy with being upside down and a bit cold.
Mark

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

Going to need it a lot when learning to roll. Although due to excessive practice I can get from swimming back to paddling in 2 minutes in the pool!

Another go tomorrow as long as backs ok....
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Adrian Cooper »

davebrads wrote: So mark62 is right when he says if you want to reduce the amount of effort required to right the boat, lean back.
But leaning back reduces your flexibility to control the lower part of your body in relation to your torso. Sit upright and roll the boat under you, it will turn well; lie back and try the same it is difficult to get any useful roll of the boat. Inasmuch as the lady is having difficulty turning the boat in relation to her torso, lying back will surely just make this more difficult.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by davebrads »

I'm sorry Adrian, but I disagree. I have done the following experiment. Lying flat on the floor I try to twist my legs to one side, and the amount of twist (measured by how high I can lift one ass cheek off the floor) is quite small. If I sit up straight and try to twist my legs, it is still quite small, maybe slightly more than lying flat but not much. But if I lean back at about 30 degrees (supporting myself on my arms) I can twist my legs much further, and with much more strenght and control. Unless I have unusual physiology I would say this applies to most people.

But this is besides the point. The problem really comes from the fact that if you are in a bouyant boat the lower edge of the cockpit starts to lift out of the water long before the boat is upright. It doesn't matter how flexible you are, you simply aren't going to be able to keep much of your body in the water when the cockpit rim is digging into your lower ribs.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by goatboy »

Oh dear! Multiple experts, multiple contradictory opinions - on something as basic as body position in a T-rescue.

An alternative suggestion - gp.girl should just try the experiment for herself: attempt a t-rescue leaning forward, backward, and various positions in between, just to see which one actually works best, and feels easiest. Whichever one she settles on, there will be at least one expert who agrees that it's the right way of doing things!


For some inspiration, here's a nice photo sequence of the 'no hands roll'

http://tsunamirangers.com/2010/11/17/gr ... en-wilson/

It's either a hand roll with your hands out the water, or a T-rescue without the rescuing boat.

(Also possible in a playboat

I would suggest that whoever can do this has probably got their body position quite well sorted!

G.B.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl »

Actually went pretty well.

Leaning back makes it easier but not fun on a dodgy back. Went for slow and keep head on hands which helped a lot.

Have a feeling rolling is going to come up again next time and I can't use the old excuse now.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Wadhamite »

I've had my share of T rescues at Lee Valley - large concentrations of friendly paddlers who, having watched me mess up 3+ roll attempts, were ready and waiting when I gave up...
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