T-rescue

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gp.girl
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T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:03 am

I'm rubbish at this (obviously) got past the hating capsizing (nose clip in place) but still can't get the turning back over. Last pool session managed 2 out 2 using the dodgy 1 arm holding the grab handle the wrong way, please don't do that it looks horrible method and 0 out 8 trying the get both hands in the right place and then pull the deck or get rescued cos by the time I've got both hands in position I have absolutely no idea what to do next. What do you do then?
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John K
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Re: T-rescue

Post by John K » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Have you tried it holding on to the side of the pool? You can control how far you go over each time and work up to doing a full capsize. This way you can do it in stages and build your confidence while you get the feel of the movement.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by John K » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:38 am

And maybe see if there's someone else you can get some coaching from, because it sounds like they should be coming up with a better strategy than just letting you fail over and over!

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Re: T-rescue

Post by sirswimalot » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:59 am

It is very hard/impossible to give advise/coach you without seeing the attempt in person.

A common problem is attempting to lift your bodyweight out of the water before a hip snap. When your body is in the water it is almost weightless so by keeping the body in the water until the very last minute means that snapping your hips / righting the boat is very easy. Remember to right the boat with your hips and let your body follow. Keep your body in the the water as long as possible. Try to make your head the last thing that leaves the water.

You really need a coach to see what mistakes you are making and then correct them accordingly but I hope the above is of use.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by rhysb » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:03 am

Not sure if you are receiving the best advise to be honest.

A fail to see how having 2 hands on a boat is the most important thing and what is important is something that works to build your confidence then tweet it rather than letting you fail loads.

With any roll/rescue the important parts are head.

Keep your head down till the last second. Maybe try looking at where your hands are and keeping your head level with the surface of the water. This will help later learning to roll as following your blades arc with your head will keep it low as well.

Then once you have you kept your head low it is a case of rolling your hips(hip flick) and then unwinding your body working up to your head

Hope this makes sense. But this head low hip flick is miles more important that having one hand or two hands on the bow of the other boat. As all they are doing is providing a small amount of support whilst the hips do the righting. You are not pullin yourself up with your hands

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Richp86 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:33 am

Speaking as someone who has only recently learned, the way I did it was to go over, take a second and ensure you are calm, then once you have hold with your hands (not too important how!) I conciously thought to myslef -Boat first-Then me. so make your boat the right way up first with your hips, then pull yourself up.

Like someone else said, you can practice that on the pool edge.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by maryinoxford » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:51 am

gp.girl, as others have said, without seeing you we can only guess what's going wrong, but I'll mention a couple of things from my own experience as someone not too clever with these techniques.

I can bring myself upright from upside down by holding on to a poolside, so I think my hip movement is adequate. As John K says, in that situation you have things more under control.

I had done T-rescues occasionally in a pool, but I once tried it in a (quiet) river with a coach, and was surprised when I couldn't get upright using his boat. He was in a playboat, and I found the wide flat bow very difficult to grip, with the grab handle no help. I asked him to change to a sea kayak. He thought that would be more of a problem because his bow would be sitting higher out of the water, but I could reach it okay, and it was much easier to get hold of the narrow pointy bow. I could swing back up no problem. Obviously, whether this is useful will depend on where you might need to do this for real, and what kind of boat will be available to help you. But it's a confidence builder to know that you can do it at all.

Trying to get hands with the right grip: I'm very poor at visualising what's going on when I'm upside down. But this is the mind trick I use. Sitting upright in a chair, I imagine there's an object beside me at hip level, and I reach both hands to get hold of it. (This will be the bow of the rescue boat.) What I have to do with this 'object' is lift it up and swing it high across in front of me, and down to the opposite side. So before I start the movement, I make sure my hands are in the right grip to do this.

I don't know if this image will help you, but it helps me. Good luck.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Alec » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:10 pm

Is your rescuer continuing to paddle forward towards you whilst you are trying to pull up on the front of their boat? If they're not then as you pull up you end up pushing their boat further away which makes it much harder for you.

Are you confident/relaxed when under water or are you slightly stressed/anxious/panicing?
You have a lot more time than you may think/realise. What feels to you like "forever" is in reality probably 1-2 seconds (max)
If this sounds like you then there are loads of exercises you can try to improve your confidence underwater. Let me know if you want me to expand on this.

Hope this helps but without seeing you its really difficult to give advice but hopefully you've got a few things to think about without overloading you.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Pam Bell » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:51 pm

gp.girl wrote:... holding the grab handle the wrong way...
Rather than focus on the grab handle, put your hands on the end of the rescue boat however it feels that you will be able to push up (as others have said, practice at the poolside may help with this). If you need a bit more grip, move your hands to find the handle AFTER you have got the position sorted.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:51 pm

Will try the poolside next time, I've tried going over to 90 degrees but not turning over. I have a lot of trouble keeping my head down but at least I can pull harder its the blank moments that really bother me. If I concentrate on anything I can totally fail to get the next bit so it gets to be very hard to get anywhere. But the ones that worked were not good. If anything had gone wrong I had my arm/shoulder in a vulnerable position. Thinking about it the rescuer did seem a long away from my boat by the time I'd got a grip on them so maybe that didn't help
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Mark Dixon » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:51 pm

Its all about time and confidence, with 1 of my groups this Summer I got them to ditch their paddles many times and play polo with their hands, should they go over we encouraged them to stay in their boats and be rescued by others even though the rescuers had no paddle. We had the occasional swimmer but everybody learned to relax a bit more knowing theyve got a bit of a wait before being rescued. It soon became very easy for them.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:04 am

We do that I stay decidedly upright without any effort or caution. To add insult to injury hubby did this in his first session turned over and t rescued just fine! Might have to get someone to turn me over. Better than my normal bottom of small drops on Welsh rivers.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Wadhamite » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:41 pm

I wouldn't feel bad about not getting the t rescue right away - I built up from upright - to elbow in the water - ear in the water - head under - to totally immersed and upside down (on both sides) to build the hip snap. As you can imagine, this took ages!

And now that I roll, when I occasionally have to be T recued (usually during canoe polo) I sometimes mess up the technique, because I'm out of practice. But get the hip snap right and you barely need to be touching the other person's boat to rescue you. It'll stand you in good sted for paddle and hand rolls.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by alexpethybridge » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:52 pm

Without seeing you I don't know which part of the t rescue you are struggling with but this is the progression I teach;

Starting upright with the rescuer's boat perpendicular to you on your left hand side.

1. Place your right hand on the rescuer's grab handle.
2. Place your left hand on the rescuer's grab handle.
3. Place your head on top of your hands - this is the important part, you are very stable in this position and able to breathe freely.
4. Rotate your hips so that your boat is upside down.
5. Take your left hand off their grab handle and let it dangle in the water.
6. Take your head off their grab handle and place in the water.
7. Place your head completely under the water.
8. Bring your head back up and rest it on the front of their boat, at the same time bring your left hand up and grab their boat.
9. Hip flick your boat so that it turns the right way up and then lift your head off their boat

When you are comfortable with this on both sides capsize, run your hands along the sides of your boat and when you feel the rescuer hit you grab their boat with the nearest hand and repeat steps 8 and 9.

Good Luck. :)
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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:54 am

Sounds good except 5. Turn the boat over with my head on top of a creekboat sounds painful at best.

Obviously I'm not that keen on 7 either but I'll live and a quick check of the last weekends fun say 4 of the 4 swims could have been avoided with a t rescue.....drat
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:26 am

If you lie along the back deck of your boat with the nearest hand on the end of another boat or the pool side, lower your body and head into the water using that hand for stability. You should be able to lie pretty comfortably in the water roughly on your back with your face up with the bouyancy of your body doing most of the work and the hand on the boat not putting much effort in. Your own boat will be heeled over but probably less than 90 degrees, you can now practice using your hips to try and push it back flat, or roll it over a little further. Notice how much easier it is if you are laying along your back deck rather than sitting up with your body out to the side.

To get the boat completely flat you will have to slide your body out of the water over the boat again, but do it right at the very last moment.

This is the key finish to most basic kayak self rescues - WW paddlers might tell you leaning back is bad and you need to finish stitting up or leaning forward becasue you will be unstable laying back and could fall in again. At this stage ignore them, work on learning to get the boat upright leaning back and when you have that work on sitting up quickly afterwards.

Get comfortable in that position and you will soon work out how to get from there to tipping the boat right over, and later to capsizing without holding on and then finding the other boat and righting yourself. Notice that you do not have to pull down hard on the other boat, just use it for support so you can roll your hips away from it to come up.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by babaton » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:41 pm

Our instructor taught my son to practice by the edge of the pool with one hand. Once he'd mastered that he got him to try again using only 3 fingers, then 2 and finally with just 1 finger.

It makes sure you aren't putting loads of pressure on the arms and ensures your hips are doing the work.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:43 am

Leaning backwards really didn't work for me if I'm in that position I seem to have no ability to get upright at all. Probably becasue I'm using my shoulders not hips but it still ends up with swimming/rescue.
babaton wrote:Our instructor taught my son to practice by the edge of the pool with one hand. Once he'd mastered that he got him to try again using only 3 fingers, then 2 and finally with just 1 finger.

It makes sure you aren't putting loads of pressure on the arms and ensures your hips are doing the work.
Now on the to try list just need to get to a pool session.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Kelvin » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:48 am

Another drill you may wish to try.

1, Sit on the floor with your knees slightly bent as though you are in a kayak.
2, Flop over onto your side.
3, Sit up without using your hands or arms.

This will help you get the hang of rolling your hips.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by mudlark » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:49 pm

Are you slipping about in the kayak when you go over? That won't help your hipflick.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:37 pm

The way Jim describes it will build confidence in lying to the side of your boat but it sounds as if you have already identified that rotating your hips is not easy in this laid back position. In order to be able to swivel your hips, your body needs to be more at right angles to the boat, similar to a sitting position.

This lying back is discouraged in the high support stroke since the hip movement is restricted. You will get the feel for this by holding the side of the pool as frequently recommended.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:15 pm

If you lie on the back deck, chances are your bum will lift off the seat, so your hip flick (bum flick) won't rotate the boat.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:14 pm

Kelvin wrote:Another drill you may wish to try.

1, Sit on the floor with your knees slightly bent as though you are in a kayak.
2, Flop over onto your side.
3, Sit up without using your hands or arms.

This will help you get the hang of rolling your hips.
Is this even possible? Drat hubbys just done it.....I just end up on my back! Can't even get my shoulder off the ground.

Is the lower back involved in this cos if it is I'm going to have to stick to option 2 (don't fall over)?

Kayak pretty tight it's mine so no-one else gets to play in it. Also its a GTS and if I don't have a good fit it's tippy at best.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Jim » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:16 pm

I think I mentioned that you won't get it right up lying right back, you will have to transition over the boat to finish.

gp.girl you need your lower back a lot in kayaking, I do know one or 2 people who have seriously restricted movement and have learned to work around it but if you can do something to ease the back up and gain flexibility it will help with a lot more than rescues and rolling.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:33 pm

Movements OK but there's not much strength there, put it this way I misaligned it sleeping in the wrong position a couple of years ago. Doesn't seem to make much difference when I'm upright but I'm used to it so can't really feel the difference.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by yabbadabba » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:53 pm

Probably one of the best options is to meet up with other kayaks and use their experise :-)
I am in the Wiltshire/Dorset location if that helps.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:51 am

Sussex near Gatwick. Quite a few people have tried but if the problem is my back I'm stuffed. Sort of explains earlier problems with the hip flick as after a certain point (leaning) I can't do anything. Also explains why they can't understand how I can't get back upright after I've got hold of the boat......

Will see how it goes next week.

If not whats the best way to learn to stop falling over at the bottom of small drops?
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Re: T-rescue

Post by Alec » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:05 am

To reduce the chance of falling in at the bottom of small drops "Keep paddling". It sounds like you may be doing the classic and very common "Phew, made it" and stopping paddling too soon. It's much harder to fall in if you always have an active paddle in the water. Keep paddling until you are well established in the eddy.

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Re: T-rescue

Post by gp.girl » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:10 pm

I normally fall in right at the bottom after bouncing off a rock sideways, if I can get away from the drop I've got very good chance. Current count for small drops - rock at the top of the drop just before the takeout above Town Falls on the Dee, 2 days running. Ogmore rock at the bottom and a bit of towback. Usk 3 out of 4 drops, 1 landed in froth, fell over, 2 bounced off rocks fell over, 3 caught paddle in branch so totallly not paddling and fell over. Once I'm in just moving water I haven't actually fallen in once (been close) to the point I was trying the not paddling just to see what happens!

Someones going to suggest bracing......normally remember that a bit late.
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Re: T-rescue

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:10 pm

People often fall over at the bottom of drops because they either take a forward stroke or bow rudder on the bank-side of the boat, usually where there's an eddy-fold (the eddy current folds under the main current). The paddle dives, and the paddler follows.

Make a point of taking a forward or sweep stroke on the "middle of the river" side of the boat when possible.
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