CRB / DBS not required!

Inland paddling
icklepaddler
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 2:08 pm

CRB / DBS not required!

Post by icklepaddler »

As of 1st June this year, it is no longer mandatory for coaches to have CRB / DBS.

About flippin time!

I really disliked the thinking that said only by having a piece of paper could you be safe around kids or vulnerable adults.

Ickle

Wadhamite
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:08 am
Contact:

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Wadhamite »

Woohoooo! Can you link me to more info please?
LV induction guide: http://tmblr.co/ZIurAvTdASgQ

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Letters have been sent out, I have three. CE will be providing additional information by email over the course of the next couple of months to reflect changes in regulations but the basic policy was agreed by the BCU last month. The letters indicate the basic change described in the OP.

icklepaddler
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by icklepaddler »

It was in the coaching newsletter email received today, and is also on the coaching news page here:

http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/coaching/coaching-news/

It is great that they are putting info out this way, but I still feel that CE really need to improve their communication re coaching matters (ie FSRT updates announced on CW & SCA facebook but not on CE) and not rely on everyone going back to hunt for updates on the CE website.

If you follow the link for more info, it advises you to keep checking back for more information. Surely it should be up to CE to be putting the information out in a manner that is easy for us all to locate.

Fingers crossed they drop Child safety every three years which I am sure was on the horizon a while back.

Re Adrians post, it is good if they are sending out letters and being proactive in htis manner. Not received mine yet, pity as I had to update just the other week.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I'm not sure who the letters are targeted at, maybe club welfare officers, chairmen, etc. That might be the reason for two of mine.

The letters, I think, are aimed at updating us on the regulations so the 'deployers' will need a reasonable understanding of these. I don't know if they have finally got the message that since they are not the delpoyers, they are not entitled under the law to insist on or even request a CRB/DBS be carried out.

Betty
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Betty »

Think this is will change nothing for many people. Instead of the BCU doing the check, it will simply be the deployer. I can not think of a single club or commercial setting in which you will not be required to have a CRB to coach. Even if you do not work with kids, it relates to vulnerable adults too.

icklepaddler
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by icklepaddler »

Betty wrote:Think this is will change nothing for many people. Instead of the BCU doing the check, it will simply be the deployer. I can not think of a single club or commercial setting in which you will not be required to have a CRB to coach. Even if you do not work with kids, it relates to vulnerable adults too.
It is a VERY sad state of affairs when people are not prepared to let you work with others without pie e of paper saying that you have not yet been caught doing something wrong.

What happened to being responsible citizens and just keeping eyes open?

R3V
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:30 am

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by R3V »

Remember if an eligible volunteers working in a coaching environment (most club coaches) there is no cost to obtain a DBS Volunteers defined as those working for free or minimal payment to cover travel and allowed expenses. If it is your job (be it full or part-time) the if working with children or vulnerable adults then it costs ( a one off fee £44 but should be an allowable expense) but there is no official expiry limit on it after issue when it needs to be renewed. The statement is the decision on the need for rechecking is down to the employer.
whilst CE can not make it compulsory to obtain one to be a valid coach the statutory regulations make it so if you work with children or vulnerable adults.

User avatar
TheKrikkitWars
Posts: 5809
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

icklepaddler wrote:
Betty wrote:Think this is will change nothing for many people. Instead of the BCU doing the check, it will simply be the deployer. I can not think of a single club or commercial setting in which you will not be required to have a CRB to coach. Even if you do not work with kids, it relates to vulnerable adults too.
It is a VERY sad state of affairs when people are not prepared to let you work with others without pie e of paper saying that you have not yet been caught doing something wrong.

What happened to being responsible citizens and just keeping eyes open?
Well if I understand correctly, it didn't work all that well, which allowed bad things to happen... So the government legislated to create methods of identifying people who were unusually likely to do aforementioned bad things and stop them from getting close to vulnerable persons.

I can understand some degree of frustration, but ultimately Child Protection is a GOOD THING, no one wants children being abused and certainly not in situations where it's entirely preventable. If that means that as coaches we periodically submit to having a background check, then it's not exactly the end of the world is it?

Compared to some other sports (Swimming as a prime example), canoe clubs tend to be much less obsessive about Child Protection, so count your blessings.
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


Joshua Kelly

RizzRat
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:53 am

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by RizzRat »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
icklepaddler wrote:
Betty wrote:Think this is will change nothing for many people. Instead of the BCU doing the check, it will simply be the deployer. I can not think of a single club or commercial setting in which you will not be required to have a CRB to coach. Even if you do not work with kids, it relates to vulnerable adults too.
It is a VERY sad state of affairs when people are not prepared to let you work with others without pie e of paper saying that you have not yet been caught doing something wrong.

What happened to being responsible citizens and just keeping eyes open?
Well if I understand correctly, it didn't work all that well, which allowed bad things to happen... So the government legislated to create methods of identifying people who were unusually likely to do aforementioned bad things and stop them from getting close to vulnerable persons.

I can understand some degree of frustration, but ultimately Child Protection is a GOOD THING, no one wants children being abused and certainly not in situations where it's entirely preventable. If that means that as coaches we periodically submit to having a background check, then it's not exactly the end of the world is it?

Compared to some other sports (Swimming as a prime example), canoe clubs tend to be much less obsessive about Child Protection, so count your blessings.

AGREED!

Swimming has good right to be careful - it wasn't great at child protection back in the day!!!!!!!
Generally p!ssing people off since 1984!

twopigs
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by twopigs »

icklepaddler wrote:As of 1st June this year, it is no longer mandatory for coaches to have CRB / DBS.

About flippin time!

I really disliked the thinking that said only by having a piece of paper could you be safe around kids or vulnerable adults.

Ickle
Don't get carried away ..... read
http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/media/p ... 310513.pdf

and I'm afraid it is not Canoe England/Canoe Wales/CANI who are putting this on coaches ..... it is our Government.

If you're happy to have children in school taught by people who have to go through the checking process I feel you ought to accept that if you want your kids to be coached unsupervised or taken away for weekends without you then those who do that should go through the same checking process. BUT at least Canoe England/Canoe Wales/CANI are no longer saying that people (like Adrian) who only want to coach adults need to be checked.

(Ducks head to avoid bricks.)
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

twopigs
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by twopigs »

Betty wrote:Think this is will change nothing for many people. Instead of the BCU doing the check, it will simply be the deployer. I can not think of a single club or commercial setting in which you will not be required to have a CRB to coach. Even if you do not work with kids, it relates to vulnerable adults too.
I think the BCU will still act as the "umbrella" organisation for clubs who are regarded as the "deployer" - BUT they will not get a copy of the disclosure.

Read
http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/about/s ... g-service/

Seems a little bit clearer than mud, but not very!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
scottdog007
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:34 pm
Location: Hertfordshire.
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by scottdog007 »

Something that does sound good and has to be a positive is-

■ You will be able to join the new DBS Update Service, which has the following additional benefits:

■Saves you time and money
■You may not have to apply for further DBS checks in the future*
■Your DBS certificate may be transferable to other organisations*


At the moment it has to be renewed every 3 years and is non-transferable to other organisations such as schools, scouts etc.

User avatar
OwenBurson
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: Isle of Wight
Contact:

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by OwenBurson »

twopigs wrote: If you're happy to have children in school taught by people who have to go through the checking process I feel you ought to accept that if you want your kids to be coached unsupervised or taken away for weekends without you then those who do that should go through the same checking process. BUT at least Canoe England/Canoe Wales/CANI are no longer saying that people (like Adrian) who only want to coach adults need to be checked.

(Ducks head to avoid bricks.)
Hi Paul,

I don't think anyone would disagree that if you coach/lead groups with young people then they should go through some form of checking, hopefully by a fit for purpose process; the main objection of mine and many is that it is not the role of the BCU to enforce the need for CRB/DBS, it is an employer/deployer issue. Therefor I am very happy to see the retraction of the policy.

Owen

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I can agree with Owen’s comment provided the activity meets the criteria but I don’t quite agree with Paul’s interpretation of my position. It’s not that I only want to coach adults; I am quite happy to coach children. My first argument is that the CRB/DBS system is of little value, my second argument is that, for most of our club’s activities, the criteria are not met. I don’t know what happens in other clubs but I cannot agree with Betty’s generalisation that every club coach should be checked.

User avatar
Chalky723
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:56 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Chalky723 »

Adrian Cooper wrote: My first argument is that the CRB/DBS system is of little value, my second argument is that, for most of our club’s activities, the criteria are not met. I don’t know what happens in other clubs but I cannot agree with Betty’s generalisation that every club coach should be checked.
I think you're right, it doesn't actually prove anything apart from the fact that the holder of the certificate hasn't been caught for anything. Also, statistically, little Jimmy is more likely to be groped by "Uncle Johnny" who takes him to and from the session (and helps him into his wetsuit) than the coach.

In a club environment the coach is checked. What about every other adult that the kids will be paddling with in the club? Also, given that things like THIS can happen in a teaching environment, how many similar "non" offences have slipped through the CRB system via similar loopholes....

C
Jackson Nirvana, LL Remix 69, BMW F650GS...

jmmoxon
Posts: 5881
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:12 pm
Location: Sometimes Sunny Somerset
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 51 times
Contact:

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by jmmoxon »

This may be driven by cost saving rather than BCU, as DBS must have been providing huge numbers of subsidised disclosures for ineligible situations & they are now only providing one certificate which goes to the individual rather than having a 2nd copy sent to the organisation.

Updating won't save you much money if working for one organisation, but will be good for those working for several:
You may never need to apply for another DBS check again
Individuals can choose to subscribe to the Update Service for an annual fee of £13, or free for volunteers. Their DBS certificate will be kept up-to-date so that they can take it with them from role to role within the same workforce. As a result millions of employees and volunteers will no longer have to apply for a new criminal record check each time they apply for a job.

If an individual has subscribed to the Update Service their employer will be able to go online, with the individual’s consent, and carry out a free, instant check to find out if the information released on the DBS certificate is current and up to date.
Mike
http://kayakworldguide.forums-free.com Links to websites with info on white water, touring, sea & surf.

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Mark Dixon »

I actually believe having a CRB check is a good idea, but shouldnt be mandatory as before, clubs should be encouraged to have all their coaches checked as standard policy regardless of coaching level, this gives peace of mind to parents/carers as far as training U18's is concerned. It also shows that the club is responsible. It also shows that you as an individual can be trusted in modern society.
It should also be 1 check for all sports covers everything rather than individually as someones making money out of multi CRB's

JoshOvki
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by JoshOvki »

CRB checks are only needed if you are going to be working alone with children or vulnerable adults. There are going to be very few cases that someone will be put in that situation on a paddling club situation. If it is through work it is likely the work place will have run a CRB check anyway. Forcing it on everyone that wants to coach to me always seemed way over the top.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I refuse to have a check so using your logic Mark, maybe I can't be trusted.

User avatar
adrian j pullin
Posts: 1390
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 1:43 pm
Location: In reality: Wirral. In my dreams: Mull

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by adrian j pullin »

Mark Dixon wrote:... It also shows that you as an individual can be trusted in modern society...
No it does not. This has always been one of the major problems with CRB. Most people take it to mean that you are not a danger. It does not mean any such thing. The ONLY thing a CRB tells people is that you have not been caught.

Personally, as both a coach and a father of children who are just getting into paddling, I am much more concerned that the people who take my kids out area actually safe ON the water. I have been out with coaches whose judgement is so poor that I will not paddle with them again, let alone let my kids out with them.

The solution I have personally come to over this is that I go with my kids. I paddle with them, obviously, but I also stood on the touchline whilst my son played football (I hate football!), sit in on my kids music lessons, returned to karate after 30 years when my son started etc. etc. You can not be everywhere with them, but you can at least make an effort to get to know the people who are with them rather than just chucking them out of the car at the door as some parents do.

CRB has never been an issue for me as I work in education, so I have about 5 of them at any one time but I do not ask people who coach my kids if they have one. I see what they do when coaching because that is my main concern.
Cheers

Adrian J Pullin
-------------------------------------------------------
"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
Kayak lore: "He who capsizes must also roll".

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Mark Dixon »

Well theres about a million replies on another thread about some con artist or other, I bet hes dead easy to get on with and seems trusting, but then a CRB check will prove otherwise I imagine.
I too stood on the touchline for 10 years and seen some right idiots CRB does not mean they are totally trustworthy I'll take that back but then if I took my kids to any training where someone refuses to have a CRB then I am concerned there may be something to hide, after all most clubs pay for it anyway. Most football clubs dont let you near kids without a CRB

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Mark Dixon »

Adrian Cooper wrote:I refuse to have a check so using your logic Mark, maybe I can't be trusted.
I would not trust you near my kids if you refused to have one where it was required and take them elsewhere

hardy
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:37 pm
Location: bristol

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by hardy »

Interesting thread .

I was one of the prime motivators in my club , helping , coaching , advising etc etc. Not a qualification to my name , except my 2 and 3* , couple of kids , common sense and a nice smile .

Then the club said everyone who helped had to have a CRB check . I filled the form out wrong and they gave it back , telling me how to do another one . Circumstances jumped on me all at once , i had little time , and kept forgetting to take the form to the pool . At committee meetings i was given a hard time . I told them ( the over zealous few ) that if they kept pushing me the way they were , they could stick their check up their collective arse .

"But how can you resolve the issue of a 15 year old who wants to do the club trip ? "

"Easy....i won't take him " i replied .

In my opinion , if they were blind to the fact i held no threat , they did not deserve what i was giving .

They pushed . I resisted . Many parents asked me to help their kids , initially i politely refused , eventually i expressed the clubs concerns about me not having a piece of paper to the individual parents concerned ; They all told me they trusted me and i gave my help . The "pushers" left the club , i don't know why , but they were not "givers" anyway , just mindful of litigation .



Child protection is paramount . An easy way to pass information through the organisations concerned is obvious . Suspicious behaviour should be discussed , and a common sense approach to challenging it must be found locally at first . We seem to have a blanket approach to problems these days , which takes responsibility from the individual .

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Mark Dixon »

Having been on many courses through my footballing times many things changed over the years, lets face it if any child gets abused it now makes huge headlines, the CRB along with Child Protection certificates are a way of protecting yourselves and stopping newcomers being overly concerned. Should a kid wrongly accuse you of anything you have a head start ( I have seen this before and poor guy had his windows bricked in before girl involved decided to tell truth)
In paddling people are rarely alone with kids but there are pool changing rooms etc but a child protection course will warn you of dangers of getting into that situation. I never used to give a kid a lift unless others were in car, the advice was another adult but that rarely happened.
Character is easily judged but clubs need transparency as well, there are also many grants available and I know in football these are not available unless everyone is CRB'd and the club coaches reach a required standard. I dont think its the case yet with paddling but sure it wont be long ( the grants coming from CE do not know your character so want the 2nd best thing)
Nowadays a child protection course also concentrates on identifying kids that are being abused, they know the huge majority of sports coaches are trustworthy and they want you to be on look out for home abuse or from other kids. I forget the figures but in football alone its huge the number of abuse cases.
I understand those that wont have a CRB but its the way forward for clubs with kids and vulnerable adults and it wouldnt surprise me if it became mandatory in future.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Mark Dixon wrote:
Adrian Cooper wrote:I refuse to have a check so using your logic Mark, maybe I can't be trusted.
I would not trust you near my kids if you refused to have one where it was required and take them elsewhere
That's absolutely fine and entirely your prerogative but it won't make me get one. I am currently chairman of my club and Welfare Officer. If it becomes obligatory for people in those posts to be checked, tgen that's fine too, I will simply stand down from the posts. If it becomes obligatory for all volunteers to be checked then that's fine too, I will simply not volunteer for anything. It is very easy for me, I am quite principled in my behaviour and maybe also a bit stubborn. I just hope no-one is drawing comparisons between me and the fraudster in the other thread mentioned.

Mark Dixon
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:22 am
Location: Devon
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Mark Dixon »

That surprises me you hold those 2 positions without having had a CRB, were it me I would insist on me having 1, perhaps CanoeClubs are behind the times for child protection? In South West football you would be in a very small minority, we have leagues down here that are heading for all their clubs to be "Charter Standard" with all managers, commitee and coaches CRB'd and qualified. I dont get involved in committee level at my local canoe club as I've served my time in football, perhaps the 2 cannot be compared? But a kid is a kid wether he/her is kicking a ball or paddling a kayak, doesnt make him/her any less vulnerable.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I haven't done anything wrong, I don't intend to do anything wrong. If people don't want me to coach their children then that's just fine with me.

As a club we have taken a deliberate decision not to get involved with the Clubmark programme because of all of the unnecessary paperwork.

User avatar
Alex Shiell
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: Reading

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Alex Shiell »

It might be worth pointing out here that our club (Adrian and I) is an adults members club where no adult has unsupervised contact with young people. We also strive to have as few as rules and regs as possible because we are a canoe club of people who like to go paddling, not a club of people who like filling in paperwork, ticking boxes and being officious.

Having said that, I work for a number of outdoor centres and fully support the idea that all instructors should have a DBS check. However, this is not a panacea since it only flags up people who have "been caught" (as was said earlier). A far more stringent approach is to monitor coaches behaviour and react to incidences before they escalate.

Finally, remember that the statistics show that young people are still most likely to be abused by family and friends.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: CRB / DBS not required!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Latest child protection case in the courts decided yesterday. Teacher who was presumably CRB checked.

A week or so ago there was another case of a teacher downloading child porn cleared to return to work. presumably CRB checked before and after.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”