Full Facers

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eeonz
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Re: Full Facers

Post by eeonz »

Remember, you only get one wallet.

Or is it head?

I forget which.
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Sweetcheeks
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Sweetcheeks »

I'd get one if they did helmets my size (need xxxl sized gath to barely fit =P). I asked sweet if they do bigger but they don't do em. Also I only paddle grade 3 stuff lol!

damppaddler
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Re: Full Facers

Post by damppaddler »

I am really shocked by some people's attitudes about full face helmets on this thread

I have one and wear it all the time - even on Lakes

I don't care if I look like an idiot - I don't go kayaking to impress people with my looks or fashion sense

I wear it on grade 1-2 too - i dont understand the comment about 'sharpening up my skills to prevent me going over'
Why wear any helmet on grade 1-2? Why where a PFD on grade 1-2?

If there's any possibility of coming into contact with a rock wear a helmet - full face or normal makes no difference

The only disadvantage of wearing a full face I have found is it makes drinking difficult without removing the helmet first!
(I wear a full face skiing too, and watching my having the occasional sip from a hip flask on a chair lift is quite comical!!)

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blackgold
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Re: Full Facers

Post by blackgold »

damppaddler wrote:I am really shocked by some people's attitudes about full face helmets on this thread

I have one and wear it all the time - even on Lakes

I don't care if I look like an idiot - I don't go kayaking to impress people with my looks or fashion sense

I wear it on grade 1-2 too - I dont understand the comment about 'sharpening up my skills to prevent me going over'
Why wear any helmet on grade 1-2? Why where a PFD on grade 1-2?

If there's any possibility of coming into contact with a rock wear a helmet - full face or normal makes no difference

The only disadvantage of wearing a full face I have found is it makes drinking difficult without removing the helmet first!
(I wear a full face skiing too, and watching my having the occasional sip from a hip flask on a chair lift is quite comical!!)
I followed your logic till the last sentence, whats in the hip flask, I am from Scotland and whisky is the normal liquid in a hip flask.
Coming from a motor bike background, wearing a full face helmet is the norm and would use one on moving water if I could find one which would fit my size of head. Being called an idiot for wearing one is like being arrested for not smiling, reflects on our society we live in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22149790

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Re: Full Facers

Post by damppaddler »

What's in the hip flask?

Usually Chartreuse (green)

RizzRat
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Re: Full Facers

Post by RizzRat »

Hello!

Interesting threat - totally get the looking like you rate yourself thing there was a similar trent in bandanas in ladies hockey!

I spoke to my dentist about potential tooth damage and the need for a full facer. His advice interestingly was not to bother but to invest in a dental gum sheild. Apparently there is some research to suggest that by protecting your teeth you render yourself more likely to have a neck injury..... Cannot comment on said research as I didn't bother digging any further. Don't think he was trying to fish for business either has I already had a gumshield which he had made for me.....

Suppose it boils down to personal preference?
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Chrace
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Chrace »

I don't wear a helmet on anything below grade 4 since I never turn over on grade 3 anyway. Don't wear a BA either if it's hot, no use if I don't swim anyway.

Helmets mess up the hair making you look like an idiot, and BA's make you look fat.

(And if it's not about vanity then just wear the damn full facer?)

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davebrads
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Re: Full Facers

Post by davebrads »

My daughter cracked her tooth walking home from school one day when she tripped up. Should school children be encourage to wear full face helmets for the journey to and from school?

You can take safety too far. Make your own choices by all means, but at least allow me to snigger if I think you have lost the plot.
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Jim
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Jim »

davebrads wrote:Make your own choices by all means, but at least allow me to snigger if I think you have lost the plot.
Me too!

The very few times I have ever hit my head have been to the side of the helmet on accout of the pro-active things I do as I go over (generally wind up into reverse screw roll). We all make mistakes but sometimes but the level of mitigation has to match the level of danger.

Most canoeists don't wear a helmet period, In a few weeks I'll be heading off on a canoe journey wearing my open face WW lid, it will provide adequate protection for where I am going, may even be OTT but I guess I have a chance of the boat/paddle/pelicase smacking me in the head if I park it in a hole by mistake. I would need to be in an eddy to run any risk of hitting my head on the bottom, but I will feel naked without a helmet, and actually I probably could bin it in an eddy!

Actually, having said that it follows that we should probably see more full facers on grade 2 than grade 5, simply because the beginners running grade 2 are more likely to fall in..... match mitigation to danger level......????

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Re: Full Facers

Post by Mark Dixon »

The only reason I personally would wear a helmet on a lake is to keep my head warm and it certainly wouldn't be a full face. Sometimes wearing too much protection gives the wrong impression, at present Full Facers are not the norm and I wont wear mine on grade 3 if I'm leading a group or with club paddlers, (I may with friends) I trust in my ability to remain upright and check visually wether the paddlers with me are suitably dressed (it would not concern me if 1 was wearing a FF) If I wore a FF and elbow pads it may send a message of danger and fear to the group which would not be an ideal start.
I have seen that fear on 1 persons face after we paddled with him on Dart Loop He ran us up to do the Upper and 2 of us kitted out with FF helmets and elbow pads, immediately he is already questioning his level of ability to paddle that section of river without knowing anything about it.
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banzer
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Re: Full Facers

Post by banzer »

RizzRat wrote: I spoke to my dentist about potential tooth damage and the need for a full facer. His advice interestingly was not to bother but to invest in a dental gum sheild. Apparently there is some research to suggest that by protecting your teeth you render yourself more likely to have a neck injury..... Cannot comment on said research as I didn't bother digging any further.
I am a dentist... not sure about wearing a mouth guard when kayaking, I would have thought being able to breathe unobstructed quite important in a sport where sometimes air is in short supply? And it's not going to prevent any damage to the rest of your face is it? I am unaware of the neck injury research.
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Liam
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Liam »

While we were in Corsica we were doing the Asco and there's a portage 2/3rds of the way down on the right hands side. It was a really hot day
The portage isn't difficult but involved a bit of hoiking boats up the bank and round some boulders. One of our blokes suddenly disappeared only to be found 6 foot down the bank having fallen through some branches that gave way, over a boulder and landed 6 ft below on his head and BA; huge crush impact on his lid which now needs replacing and thanks to the fact he was still wearing his lid and BA he got away with a smashed lid, a jarred neck and bruising to his upper back/shoulder.

How many folk don't keep their lids on while running about on the riverbank?

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Jim
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Jim »

Liam wrote:While we were in Corsica we were doing the Asco and there's a portage 2/3rds of the way down on the right hands side. It was a really hot day
The portage isn't difficult but involved a bit of hoiking boats up the bank and round some boulders. One of our blokes suddenly disappeared only to be found 6 foot down the bank having fallen through some branches that gave way, over a boulder and landed 6 ft below on his head and BA; huge crush impact on his lid which now needs replacing and thanks to the fact he was still wearing his lid and BA he got away with a smashed lid, a jarred neck and bruising to his upper back/shoulder.

How many folk don't keep their lids on while running about on the riverbank?
Nearly always yes. And on those days when we happen to have non-paddling people following offering to do safety cover I always try to get them to put BA and helmet on - riverside rocks can be unpredictable. Not FF helmet though :-)

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Re: Full Facers

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DaveBland
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Re: Full Facers

Post by DaveBland »

I've always had the view that if you think there's a reasonable chance you'll loose your face paddling something, then maybe you shouldn't be paddling it.

Accidents do happen, but I suspect the lessened vision and hearing from a full face is more likely to 'invite' accidents in the first place.

But this of course is a personal view and each to their own. If someone wants to F/Face it on grade II, then good on em. At least they will have a warm noggin.
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Lancs_lad
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Lancs_lad »

Liam wrote:While we were in Corsica we were doing the Asco and there's a portage 2/3rds of the way down on the right hands side. It was a really hot day
The portage isn't difficult but involved a bit of hoiking boats up the bank and round some boulders. One of our blokes suddenly disappeared only to be found 6 foot down the bank having fallen through some branches that gave way, over a boulder and landed 6 ft below on his head and BA; huge crush impact on his lid which now needs replacing and thanks to the fact he was still wearing his lid and BA he got away with a smashed lid, a jarred neck and bruising to his upper back/shoulder.

How many folk don't keep their lids on while running about on the riverbank?
Do people really take their helmet off when portaging?!? Cant believe anyone would on the sort of portage you describe. At least it shows that the equipment did the job and kept him in one piece.

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justin-g
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Re: Full Facers

Post by justin-g »

Full facer?? Blah - I wear a full body helmet.
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Re: Full Facers

Post by cathalferris »

I wouldn't criticise someone's choice to wear whatever safety equipment that they feel is appropriate for any situation, as long as they have been given (and properly understand) good advice on the matter.

I've transitioned from XC MTB to a little bit of all-mountain, with a trip planned to Les Gets this summer. As part of that I've invested in knee and elbow pads, a spine protector, and a decent FF mountain biking helmet with appropriate goggles. The gear has already saved be from being damaged badly twice so far, once at 35kph on a slippery traverse on bedrock and another on my local trails at home just slipping off the trail into the bushes and trees. No disadvantage to me to have the gear, and I'm much happier with it on as I am more comfortable with the falling off that I do at the relatively low speeds that I do.

I'll happily use the elbow pads this summer coming on the Soca and the Sesia valley, and I'll be happy to use them on my local grade 2 as I get used to having that gear on my arms. If I see a decent full-face paddling helmet, I'll probably get it as well, so I can have the opportunity to choose which helmet I'll use on a particular day.

Anyone that thinks less of someone else' based on the choice in safety gear needs to take a long look at themselves and probably get out a bit more. Thankfully my paddling peers don't do that. I wouldn't let it stand if the Uni kayak club members showed that opinion either. The safety equipment choice might seem inappropriate to you, but that doesn't mean that it is in fact inappropriate as you are unlikely to have all of the relevant facts to hand, and making assumptions about things that really make an ass out of you...

I'd say each to their own, if they want to wear a FF helmet on grade 2, leave them be, but please don't laugh at them either in front of them or behind their backs.

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morsey
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Re: Full Facers

Post by morsey »

Nicely put cathalferris.

sprintpaddler
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Re: Full Facers

Post by sprintpaddler »

Hi Guys,
Very interesting thread this. Some good arguments for wearing one & not so many for not wearing. I think the comment about there being a greater chance of getting caught up, or hung up in one is valid, & I`d also consider the slight loss in vision detrimental too, but overall I reckon you`d be at less risk of injury or even death in one.
My greatest fear when kayaking is getting knocked out while under water. It really doesn't take much of a hit on the jaw for this to happen. Obviously peoples tolerance to collision differs, but when your face hits rock it`s usually bad news. I believe that wearing a FF would reduce this risk. I would imagine that while you are more at risk at grade 4-5, there is still danger to consider at grade 2-3, & I would urge people to at least think about the benefits of a FF. Having said all that, I`ve had one for 6 months now, & I`ve never worn it, this is because it feels claustrophobic to wear for me. I think this thread will make me persevere with it`s use. Cheers!

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Re: Full Facers

Post by Mark Dixon »

Feeling claustrophobic is 1 of reasons I dont wear mine as much as I should, also its not easy to clear your throat as the chin protections in the way so you have to spit upwards, I have only been over once or twice whilst wearing mine but felt so much safer knowing my face was protected, once I have paddled a couple hundred yards I seem to forget the claustrophobia though.

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Re: Full Facers

Post by Jim »

I don't know about full face paddling helmets but the MX one I use for buggying makes hearing and being heard pretty difficult, really cuts communication right down. Racing rules actually say we are supposed to shout turns to warn others what we are about to do, most of the time we just point in the direction we are going to turn because if you are heard at all no-one can tell whether you said gybe or tack.....

It has to come off for eating and drinking (rarely found a need to spit, occasionally biking after a steep ascent but can't remember ever needing such a disgusting habit whilst paddling), the chin guard catches on my shoulder when I turn my head unless I tip my head back first (actually that's a good way to get full rotation, but it's still annoying when you forget), but most of all I find it heavy - I certainly wouldn't make a F1 driver, my neck can barely support a full face helmet sitting still never mind pulling lateral G in a high speed corner!

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banzer
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Re: Full Facers

Post by banzer »

sprintpaddler wrote: I`ve had one for 6 months now, & I`ve never worn it, this is because it feels claustrophobic to wear for me. I think this thread will make me persevere with it`s use. Cheers!
It took me a while to get used to mine (Sweet FF). I made the mistake of paddling a fairly pushy river that I didn't know (the Versasca) for the first proper trip and it was too claustrophobic. Wear it on something easy to get used to it!

Now I'm fine with it, and it comes out to play on steep rocky ditches. Proper rivers I tend to wear the normal one still, for slightly improved visibility, manoeverability, and communication. Top tip: with a cold Scottish headwind (why do winds so often come up a valley rather than down it??), FFs are great windbreaks!
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Re: Full Facers

Post by davebrads »

It's all about the reason why you're wearing your full facer, or whatever gear you happen to have. Canoeing is like any other sport, there are a significant number of people that buy their gear on the basis that it is the most expensive and it's what the top professionals use. How many paddlers are there out there (and some of them will be reading this) who have spent well over £2,000 on their kit, but haven't got the skills to paddle grade 3 competently? You've seen them, top spec boat, Palm Stikine drysuit, Sweet helmet, Werner foam-core paddles etc. etc.

At least it's not as bad as cycling. Ever seen an equipe? Hundreds of fat old men on five grand bikes, carbon shoes and fancy clothing and they can't even find the right gear to climb a short hill. As for gear, take a look at the Rapha website. For ridiculous pricing and sheer bs they knock Sweet into a cocked hat.

You can't blame the manufacturers and the retailers. If someone wants to spend £800 on a drysuit, why would you make any effort to pursuade them that they could spend less than half of that?

So I will continue take the piss if I want to.
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Chalky723
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Re: Full Facers

Post by Chalky723 »

I think the times you're most likely to take knocks to the head are when you're starting out on WW and learning the ropes, and then later on when you're fully proficient & pushing the harder grade 4/5 stuff.

So I can't find any fault with people wearing full face on grade 1-2, more likely to need them there.

At the end of the day, I don't take the mick out of people's safety choices - especially people that are just starting out - as it's not up to me.

99% of the time I don't even think about what other people have got on unless it excites for some reason.

As for the idiots that sit around sniggering at other people's choices, I'd apply my usual rule - if you're that bothered, go up & say it to their face (unless you're still at school, in which case it's expected). You'll stop doing it eventually I promise!!

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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Full Facers

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

davebrads wrote:So I will continue take the piss if I want to.
And I'll be right behind you; smirking and giggling.

I mean really, if you care so much what other people think about your choice of kit, and how the hell did you last long enough in the paddling community to end up buying a full face? It's been my experience that groups of paddlers can and will use any slight difference of opinion or kit as a reason to tease, mock, and goad each other for their own entertainment... Without ever meaning anything unpleasant by it, same with numerous other "adventure sports" to some extent; It's almost part of the appeal.
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davebrads
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Re: Full Facers

Post by davebrads »

Chalky723 wrote:if you're that bothered, go up & say it to their face
If the paddler is a friend I will take the piss, most of them can take it, as can I. I'm not going to start arguments with strangers though, unless it's online ;-)
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66quinny66
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Re: Full Facers

Post by 66quinny66 »

davebrads wrote:It's all about the reason why you're wearing your full facer, or whatever gear you happen to have. Canoeing is like any other sport, there are a significant number of people that buy their gear on the basis that it is the most expensive and it's what the top professionals use. How many paddlers are there out there (and some of them will be reading this) who have spent well over £2,000 on their kit, but haven't got the skills to paddle grade 3 competently? You've seen them, top spec boat, Palm Stikine drysuit, Sweet helmet, Werner foam-core paddles etc. etc.

At least it's not as bad as cycling. Ever seen an equipe? Hundreds of fat old men on five grand bikes, carbon shoes and fancy clothing and they can't even find the right gear to climb a short hill. As for gear, take a look at the Rapha website. For ridiculous pricing and sheer bs they knock Sweet into a cocked hat.

You can't blame the manufacturers and the retailers. If someone wants to spend £800 on a drysuit, why would you make any effort to pursuade them that they could spend less than half of that?

So I will continue take the piss if I want to.
So people can't spend £2k on kit unless they are competent on G3? You don't have to go top end to rack up £2k. And what's your issue with fat old men?
Anyway, surely incompetent G3 paddlers would make more use of a £200 helmet than you hotshots :p (I am fat and old but no, I don't have a Sweet helmet or Palm Stikine before you jump to conclusions)

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Re: Full Facers

Post by Jim »

66quinny66 wrote: So people can't spend £2k on kit unless they are competent on G3?
Well that's not what the man said, or meant.
It was an observation that buying the best kit does not automatically make you good, and that there is rarely any real justification for a beginner to spend 2k on kit - their friends should be pointing them towards less expensive kit that works just as well.

Fashion in paddling has always amused me, to ordinary non-paddling people none of our gear looks good, to take up paddling is to give up on your image!

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Re: Full Facers

Post by sprintpaddler »

Oh I`ve had the piss taken out of me! I`m not fat ( well I don`t think I am :) ), getting on perhaps, but I`m always getting ribbed about my day-glo yellow Sweet helmet....but I reckon it`s a safe choice of colour as it can be seen very well underwater. That's my retort anyway! Oh dear though, my FF I`m going to start wearing is bright green with Sweet decals, with a pink strap & detailing! Any ideas on how to explain that choice!! My only defence is I bought it cheap.....Not good enough I know.

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