First Aid policy?

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scottdog007
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First Aid policy?

Post by scottdog007 »

Last week I had to do my first aid 2 day course as my 3 years had run out and BCU state my 4* leadership = 2 day (16 hr) mandatory.

My first gripe is that the second day was basically talking about advance water techniques. How to swim in ww, how to use a throw bag etc, which should aready be second nature to someone with 4* because it is inbedded in them in their training and assessment. So a complete waste of time.

Second grip is I have to repeat the who 2 day (£120) course in 3 years time. BCU do not allow for a 1 day refresher course.

Also the centre where I did this course are stating that L1 needs 1 day first aid and L2 needs a 2 day first aid which is not what the BCU states and stikes me this centre is misleading people to come on their courses.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Adrian Cooper »

It sounds as if you were on the wrong course; swimming and throwbags is not first aid, it's WWSR. When I did my last 2 day FA I did a REC course and that is definitely first aid and included the outdoors, it was delivered by an ex mountain rescue volunteer.

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Randy Fandango
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Randy Fandango »

I had to do a long course too to keep my BCU quals updated. Previously I'd done the BCU aquatic 1st aid each time mine ran out but last time that wasn't long enough.
I scanned the list of acceptable courses and decided to do the 3 day FAAW as the organisation I work for wanted me to do that anyway.
It was fine -- if my 'work' environment had happened to be an office or warehouse rather than a watersports centre and lake where I teach paddling, sailing and powerboating.
The trainer even told us he was specifically not including any water / pool based 1st aid as it was out of remit.
This on a course to a roomful of people all working either in the outdoors or in sports centres with swimming pools.
So basically the BCU doesn't consider it's own, paddling oriented course to be a suitable award for higher qualified coaches but is quite happy with one where I spent 3 days learning what to do if someone's electrocuted by a photocopier or run down by a forklift truck.
Madness.
Giles

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David Hepworth
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by David Hepworth »

Am appauled by what I am seeing here but it does not suprise me, FAW is a course designed fo people who work in the office/factory environment and not outdoors although some organisations like REC and ITC do provide FAW for outdoor instructors and includes all you will come across, I have been teaching first aid to outdoor groups for nearly 10 years and in all my courses I have never once taught swimming or throwline techniques, thats the realm of wwsr.

You should do a course every 3 years as techniques and skills change but it should be for what you need not something irrelevant seems to me the 2 day course you did was not by a very competent trainer.

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by OwenBurson »

scottdog007 wrote:Last week I had to do my first aid 2 day course as my 3 years had run out and BCU state my 4* leadership = 2 day (16 hr) mandatory.

My first gripe is that the second day was basically talking about advance water techniques. How to swim in ww, how to use a throw bag etc, which should aready be second nature to someone with 4* because it is inbedded in them in their training and assessment. So a complete waste of time.

Second grip is I have to repeat the who 2 day (£120) course in 3 years time. BCU do not allow for a 1 day refresher course.

Also the centre where I did this course are stating that L1 needs 1 day first aid and L2 needs a 2 day first aid which is not what the BCU states and stikes me this centre is misleading people to come on their courses.
I'll wager you did a Canoe Lifeguards 2 day course (technically not a BCU award btw) I'm sorry to say that the credibility of this award is well below par with anyone who delivers real first aid awards.
Whilst there are undoubtedly some providers of the 2 day lifeguards course out there who run good courses, the background to the award was that upon its introduction any provider of the one day award was automatically given approval to run the 2 day award if they themselves held a two day 1st aid award - without any training and without even a real syllabus. Compare that with the 20 or so days and assessment to become a REC 1st aid provider. I have had, and continue to have experience of deliverers of the lifeguards award who simply do not have the depth of experience and knowledge to run a two day course and they just run out of things to do.

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Scots_Charles_River »

The last few I have done have been theory/classroom based day 1 then Scenarios day 2, put the theory into practice. Scenarios outside and very varied and realistic.

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mark Hirst
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by mark Hirst »

HI Guys
Sorry to hijack the original thread. I work in some pretty remote areas. In April I will be taking the advanced wilderness medicine training course at Glenmore lodge Run by WMT .
Does anyone have any experience on this course or feedback. It would be great to hear from you.

cheers
mark
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by OwenBurson »

mark Hirst wrote: Sorry to hijack the original thread.
If you know you're sorry before you do it, why do it?

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by scottdog007 »

OwenBurson wrote:
scottdog007 wrote:
I'll wager you did a Canoe Lifeguards 2 day course (technically not a BCU award btw) I'm sorry to say that the credibility of this award is well below par with anyone who delivers real first aid awards...............
Err yep you are correct. They even included talking about risk assessments. It was called a 'BCU aquatic first aid'. People were mainly scouts on the course.

I will say the first aid side of it on day one was very very good, just that I felt like I was being told how to suck eggs for the day 2.

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Randy Fandango »

scottdog007 wrote:
OwenBurson wrote:
scottdog007 wrote:
I'll wager you did a Canoe Lifeguards 2 day course (technically not a BCU award btw) I'm sorry to say that the credibility of this award is well below par with anyone who delivers real first aid awards...............
Err yep you are correct. They even included talking about risk assessments. It was called a 'BCU aquatic first aid'. People were mainly scouts on the course.

I will say the first aid side of it on day one was very very good, just that I felt like I was being told how to suck eggs for the day 2.
Actually I'm fairly sure the aquatic 1st aid is a BCU award -- a one day 1st aid award -- rather than the two day canoe lifeguards course referred to.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong?
Giles

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by scottdog007 »

I will say the first aid side of it on day one was very very good, just that I felt like I was being told how to suck eggs for the day 2.[/quote]
Actually I'm fairly sure the aquatic 1st aid is a BCU award -- a one day 1st aid award -- rather than the two day canoe lifeguards course referred to.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong?
Giles[/quote]
What they were actually telling people on this course was that the 1st day was for BCU first aid for Level 1 people and the second made it to BCU first aid for Level 2. Which is incorrect for both, because Level one does not need a first and and level 2 only needs 1 day first aid.

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Neptune »

scottdog007/Peter,

I initially completed the HSE approved 3 day First Aid at Work qualification with St. John Ambulance and subsiquently complete the annual refresher course each year and requalification course every three years to keep my first aid certificate and knowledge up to date. Coupled with my BCU AWWS&R course for which I do a refresher on a 3 year basis with a reputable provider, the BCU appear to have always found this acceptable for both my BCU Coaching Awards and 4 Star WW Leadership Award.

In addition the BJA (British Judo Association) also accept this as part of my annual re-validation programme for my BJA National Club Coach Award.

http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/training-cour ... rview.aspx

Regards,

Peter

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Neptune wrote:Coupled with my BCU AWWS&R course for which I do a refresher on a 3 year basis with a reputable provider
I don't know about the AWWSR, but for the WWSR it's a recommendation that you do a refresher every 3 years, not a requirement. Just saying.
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Randy Fandango »

Neptune wrote: I initially completed the HSE approved 3 day First Aid at Work qualification with St. John Ambulance and subsiquently complete the annual refresher course each year and requalification course every three years to keep my first aid certificate and knowledge up to date. Coupled with my BCU AWWS&R course for which I do a refresher on a 3 year basis with a reputable provider, the BCU appear to have always found this acceptable for both my BCU Coaching Awards and 4 Star WW Leadership Award.
Hi Peter,
The BCU would accept just your HSE FAAW qual to keep your coaching quals updated without the AWWS&R refreshers but I expect you do that more to keep yourself up to speed with safety and rescue technique than to satisfy BCU towers ;-)
Giles

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by Neptune »

Giles,

Your absolutley right. Just like to keep up to speed as you never know when you might need those skills. You can never be too careful when out having fun on the water with your pals. It amazes me how many paddlers never practice basic safety or with throw lines either.

Went to the Washburn last Sunday as there has been no water for weeks and as usual there were club groups their with swimmers galore and people running around like chickens with their heads cut-off without the foggiest idea of what to do!!!

Lamentable really, this should be drilled into them at the pool or lake before taking them to paddle on moving water, it was worse than a student freshers trip at the beginning of a new academic year when you except this sort of thing.

Peter

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by twopigs »

Maybe we all ought to read the BCU Lifeguards syllabus http://www.bculifeguards.org.uk/files/a ... evel2).pdf

Day one gives their Level 1 qual, then adding Day two their Level 2 qual. Maybe that is what they meant when they talked about Level 1 and 2 NOT UKCC Levels 1 and 2. And yes - day two does include such exciting things as

"Land based rescues, recovery and stabilization
a. Recovery of a person in water who is in difficulty near to land. Discuss in the classroom the considerations for a reaching rescue and how safely assist recovering a person from the water onto land.(Use the first four points of the rescue sequence, Shout, Signal, Reach, Throw)
b. Discuss the considerations of extricating an injured paddler from a canoe / kayak."

Maybe the REC Level 2 course is way forward? CPR on the back deck of a sea kayak was fun!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Having now done both 8 hour and 16 hour First Aid, I think the policy is arse-about-face.

I would say that the 8 hour AFA isn't particularly useful; it would be more to the point for people to do 16 hour AFA in the first instance, and then do one-day refreshers every 3 years.
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Re: First Aid policy?

Post by chriscw »

FAW is indeed a great and very educational course BUT the basic premise is that you are doing first aid indoors in a town or city where a working phone is within reach and ambulance will arrive in minutes. None of these things really apply in our case we are likely to have to deal with incidents in remote locations usually some distance from a road and often with no mobile signal and miles to the nearest landline.

I did a REC course a few years back in addition to my FAW, excellent and much more applicable.
Chris Clarke-Williams
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Touring, Coaching Beginners (I am an L2K), Surf White water trips, Weir Play (I'm not good enough to put freestyle!)

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