DW 2012

Marathon, Freestyle, Polo, Slalom, Sprint, WWR, etc.
hairybiker
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:40 pm

Re: DW 2012

Post by hairybiker »

To compare walking/running with paddling/portaging you need to work over 1.1 miles which is the distance most crews that run Crofton will do. Personally I haven't seen anyone carry on running down to the last lock - you have the added obstacles of gates/stiles to negotiate if you do! My partner and I did a comparison at Crofton for my wife and her partner, we could quite easily beat them with a brisk walk while they were putting in and paddling.

In terms of speed down the canal for D-W versus Waterside D time we worked on D + 10% and paced it at that, seemed to work for us!

Hackworth
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth »

Liz,

Well, how good are we at running? Now there's a question. Probably average for a couple of guys in their 50s, we could run the whole thing, but it would be a real effort... We sprint hard but stamina is a question mark...

We are quicker than most K2s at the portage though - C2s are quick in and out (if you don't fill them with water, see above)

Now I was at Crofton this morning and paced out the distances between put-ins and take-outs for the six pounds (i.e. the extra you'd have to run if you didn't paddle):

Coming from Devizes, and numbering the pounds 1-6:

Pound 1 - 200 paces
Pound 2 - 300 paces
Pound 3 - 260 paces
Pound 4 - 220 paces
Pound 5 - 245 paces
Pound 6 - 235 paces

So maybe run 1,4,6? Or other combinations as the dealer chooses? Oh dear, not much clearerfor all that!

Maybe run 1, paddle 2 and run as far as we can on the rest.

hairybiker
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Re: DW 2012

Post by hairybiker »

C2 is a bit different (that's what we're currently paddling), quicker to get in and out of, more of a struggle to run distance with than a K2. We find that using the handles is plenty quick for shorter stuff but a bit tiring on the arms for the longer ones. And as for running with it on the shoulders, seems much harder than a K2 so we intend practising that bit!
I think a lot depends on how long your legs are - my partner and I can easily keep up with my wife and her partner whilst they're jogging, we're just doing a brisk walk. You've got to try it out and see what works for you! We ran most of Crofton but did a bit of brisk walking about 2/3 in whilst we took on some fluid from our support - no-one passed us and we left a K1 behind that was running at a slightly faster pace than us but putting in at some of the locks.

OldNick
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Re: DW 2012

Post by OldNick »

I've paddled it and ran it in the past. I'm 1.5 minutes quicker by foot carrying my C1.

On a completely different subject, I tried to paddle from Aldermaston to Marsport today but the access roads to Aldermaston wharf are blocked until May whilst they work on the bridges over the railway. However, there is a diversion (see map). Eventually put in at Ufton and had a very pleasant if somewhat wet paddle. Darn swans are starting to get stroppy though.

Image

Wheezy
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Wheezy »

OldNick wrote:I've paddled it and ran it in the past. I'm 1.5 minutes quicker by foot carrying my C1.

On a completely different subject, I tried to paddle from Aldermaston to Marsport today but the access roads to Aldermaston wharf are blocked until May whilst they work on the bridges over the railway. However, there is a diversion (see map). Eventually put in at Ufton and had a very pleasant if somewhat wet paddle. Darn swans are starting to get stroppy though.

Image
We've just got back from paddling Pewsey to Aldermaston and we had a good day, but ended up waiting 40 minutes at Aldermaston for our support to becaue of the road blocks. We decided to break into our dry bag and put on our emergency gear while we waited and made a dent in a bar of fruit and nut, so not all bad........

It might be worth making a quick recce before the day if possible?

Eliza Dolittle
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Location: I'm Surrey I haven't a clue.

Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle »

Re Crofton, Old Nick has worked out what is best for him, as a single canoe and one of the slower paddlers in the field.
OldNick wrote:I've paddled it and ran it in the past. I'm 1.5 minutes quicker by foot carrying my C1.
Tracy and I worked out our long distance portage pace to be just under 4mph. We were better off paddling Crofton, overtaking all walkers and the slow joggers.

BTK66
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Location: Salisbury

Re: DW 2012

Post by BTK66 »

Unless you're a trained runner I think it's mad to jump out of a boat and deliberately raise your heart rate. The longer term impact on your paddling has to be detrimental. I've spoken to a few fast crews over the last couple of years and they all say that they would have had a faster DW time if they'd conserved a bit more energy in the canal. We walked every portage last year and am positive that we would have fallen apart if we'd tried to grab more time during the daylight, easy bits.

kvin
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Location: Chippenham

Re: DW 2012

Post by kvin »

We did Aldermaston to Reading yesterday - the Aldermaston diversion is a pain, and Tyle Mill as well is inaccessible to cars from the A4 and the car park will be closed until June......

There is a particularly territorial swan at County lock, he apparently had someone "pinned against the wall" last week and certainly made a "contact" attack on a couple of school crews yesterday. There's a nest on the right - where you need to paddle. To make it more fun one of the bouys that are usually in place in front of the weir was missing so two crews went straight over that way, one managed to reverse when they noticed that the river in front was a couple of feet lower than the bit they were on(!) the others fell in and had an interesting swim just before the weir.....

Hackworth
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Location: Wiltshire

Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth »

Unless you're a trained runner I think it's mad to jump out of a boat and deliberately raise your heart rate. The longer term impact on your paddling has to be detrimental.
In 2008 we walked everything. In 2009 we ran round all the locks. The difference was an hour at Reading - our paddling speed was about the same for the two years.

Although the effort of running is a heavy one, when you can't get much more boat speed it may be the easiest way to save time, especially in Waterside D. We probably wouldn't run Crofton for the DW, or maybe only the first pound.

I'll report back on the experiment in a week's time!!

Wheezy
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:10 pm

Re: DW 2012

Post by Wheezy »

[quote="kvin"]We did Aldermaston to Reading yesterday - the Aldermaston diversion is a pain, and Tyle Mill as well is inaccessible to cars from the A4 and the car park will be closed until June......quote]

Were you the guys who's support crew we were chatting to while we were waiting for our support to arrive? A pair went through Aldermaston at about 7.30pm? Looked to be going well. :-)

john alie
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Re: DW 2012

Post by john alie »

Hi,

Sorry to change the topic however I wonder if anyone can help. My friend has Charcot Marie Tooth Syndrome which is a muscle wasting disease, affecting mainly his legs which means it is difficult for him to get in and out of a kayak. He is also a slow walker. The DW race committee have agreed to him receiving assistance for this years event and he is training hard in his carbon K1. The assistance required is to pull on his buoyancy aid and carry his boat during the portages. We have a support crew but they are a bit slight. We have very kind volunteers for the Friday section and now all we need is for someone else to assist him on Saturday and Sunday if possible. He will be able to cope on his own on the locks that are in-accessible to support crews however.

Could anyone offer some help for those two days?

Many thanks,

Alie

kvin
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Location: Chippenham

Re: DW 2012

Post by kvin »

Hi wheezy - not me! I'm paddling a c1 this year so I hang on to the slower k2 crews that I train with (usually by sitting on their washes trying not to be too obvious or hit their rudders when I change sides.....)

Big_Pete
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Big_Pete »

Hey all,

This is a last minute plea for a boat to burrow!

My k2 partner and I are paddling senior doubles for the first time this, we have trained a lot over the past 4 months being generally very fit and kayak keen anyway, however we are paddling a boat that is way too unstable for us to actually paddle. We spend hours on end simply staying upright and simply not going fast enough, although we have managed a few 20 - 30 milers without swimming. We are not marathon paddlers and have had no proper training, both coming from WWR and general white water paddling. We are now based near devizes and are training sections of the race for the next 2 weeks.

If there is anyone that has a stable k2 for us to burrow or loan for a reasonable price could you please let me know!

For comparison we are at the moment paddling a Kirton Mustang, which is horrendous, and we are possibly getting a slightly more stable Marsport Stiletto to use a week before the race. What we would prefer is a much more stable boat that we can paddle comfortably!

If theres anyone that could help, please message me!

GL to everyone else,

Pete

andy g
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Re: DW 2012

Post by andy g »

Folks
Having experienced the 40 minute queues for Waterside B at Newbury a few weeks ago , are we likely to have a similar situation at Devizes on Sunday for D ?
It is already a pretty early start for us and with the clocks going forward we all get an hour less kip anyway , so just trying to see if we really do need to be on site at 07.00 for an 08.00 start.
Regards
Andy
PS Good luck to all competing on Sunday. Watch out for the "banana boat" !

Mike_M
Posts: 224
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Location: Bucks

Re: DW 2012

Post by Mike_M »

Big Pete,
For comparison we are at the moment paddling a Kirton Mustang, which is horrendous, and we are possibly getting a slightly more stable Marsport Stiletto to use a week before the race. What we would prefer is a much more stable boat that we can paddle comfortably!
If you can can stay upright in a Mustang with an occasional swim. I think that you will be fine in a Stiletto especally when you put in the 4 - 5kg of emegency kit. Make sure that your kit is low as possible in the boat ie under the seats.

Lood luck

Mike.

OldNick
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:46 pm

Re: DW 2012

Post by OldNick »

Today, I conducted a finely controlled scientific experiment to compare the time it takes to run the Crofton flight compared with the time it takes to paddle the six pounds.

Boat: C1 weighing 11 kgs
Weather: Fine and dry, very little wind
Conditions: Firm
Paddler: Old bloke, allegedly “one of the slower paddlers in the field” (ouch!) but a decent runner
Route: see map

Running: 13 minutes 6 seconds
Paddling: 16 minutes 29 seconds
Delta: 3 minutes 23 seconds

I’m pretty nifty at getting in and out but it takes a bit to get into full paddling action so I’m losing about 30 seconds on each pound. It was a warm day so I lost quite a bit of fluid and the old ticker was giving it some at the end.

So on paper, running is quicker for me but it depends on a number of variables on the day:

1. Congestion on the tow path (Other crews, Supporters, walkers, cyclists, fishermen etc.)
2. Wind strength – it takes a bit of effort to control a boat on the shoulder on your own.
3. Tow path condition – if it’s wet, it’ll be slippy under foot.
4. How knackered I’m feeling!

All the disembarkation and re-embarkation points at the locks are in good condition for fast portaging but that first one at the start of Croftons after the Bruce tunnel is a bit high!

So, as long as all 4 conditions are positive, I’m for running.

Image

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle »

Well done Nick for your experiment. The 35 secs a portage lost is interesting. That should shrink if there is a greater differential between your paddling speed and long distance portage speed. If we didn't have to portage then a mile of paddling takes about 10mins , carrying the boat takes 14 mins 30 secs which gives us 4mins 30 to do the portaging in and the heart isn't stressed as much. (Obviously, not such decent runners as an "old bloke" :) )

This evening I have been suffering the usual girlie angst about "What do I wear?" Specifically, how to keep my arms warm without wearing lots of layers at the start and then wasting time peeling them off later to prevent overheating. I am not very good at throwing away retired kit and I went through the pile and found the cag I wore for the DW in 2004 (!). I have cut the sleeves off, added a tab and some Velcro and now they can be quickly attached/ detatched from my buoyancy aid as required. They look slightly eccentric, but no more so than the customised waterproof trousers I wear which just protect the fronts of my thighs and knees.

Hackworth
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Location: Wiltshire

Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth »

Today we ran 1,3 and 6.

And that was enough!!!

hairybiker
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Re: DW 2012

Post by hairybiker »

We ran all of Crofton and all 3 at Froxfield and that was definitely enough! Definitely quicker than paddling though as some of the guys that had overtaken us prior to the portage had to overtake us again after! It's strangely satisfying being one of those annoying C2's that you have to overtake again and again!

BTK66
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Location: Salisbury

Re: DW 2012

Post by BTK66 »

I had a quick look at comparative Canal vs Thames times for the top 50 crews last year. Unless you're an elite paddler you will probably not be faster on the Thames.

Out of the top 50 crews at Teddington last year only 17 were faster on the Thames than the canal and 9 of these finished in the final top 10 - i.e. elite paddlers. On average they were about 13 minutes faster on the Thames.

33 crews were quicker on the canal by an average of 26.5 minutes. The further you get down the placings the more likely it is that the crews slowed down (in some cases significantly) on the Thames. Granted it was 25+ degrees last year but the Thames is likely to be even slower this year and it's predicted to be warmish again.

So plan accordingly. Unless you are very conservative on the canal you are likely to take longer on the non-tidal river section than you think.

DW2011 Canal vs Thames Times http://db.tt/9kpk5uKx

Hackworth
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth »

It's strangely satisfying being one of those annoying C2's that you have to overtake again and again!
You are so right. A couple of years ago we did the same K2 14 times in a row. They overtook in the water, we overtook at the portage. It did not improve their mood...

andy g
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Re: DW 2012

Post by andy g »

You are certainly right about portages , I have been trying to instill a portage discipline into my first time crew who managed 6h 09m on D yesterday. They kept being overtaken at each one, and then fighting hard to overtake all over again, they found it quite disheartening. I think this confirms that there is so much more to the DW than paddling ability.
Andy

Wheezy
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Wheezy »

Hello people. Looking for some more advice please. Our boat is in need of quite a bit of tlc before the race. One of the things I want to do is change the rudder wires as ours look decidedly second hand. Any advice / tips / cautions for doing this job? It's a mystere if that makes any difference.

Also, I've managed to get our emergency bags underneath our seat but there doesn't seem to be much room for anything else. I'd really like to try to do away with the rest of our kit bungeed to the footrest as I am convinced that it will break it. Anybody got any ideas? Our seats are quite low and I do not think slightly higher seats will help; we need the stability.

Cheers, W

BTK66
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Location: Salisbury

Re: DW 2012

Post by BTK66 »

Wheezy - don't put anything under the seats unless they are the 2 pin Kirton type and very solid. They take a lot of hammer when you shoulder the boat and a broken seat pin is not easy to fix mid-race.
I've got 2 footrests in our boat. If you've got room put another metal bar (with round holes in it) in front of the main rear foot-rest and cable-tie your dry bag onto this. (Kirton sell them) Ideally you want the dry bag to be held off the bottom of the boat as it will get wet. However this can lead to less stability as the weight is above the water line.
Alternatively you can split your kit and shove it in the back either side of the foam buoyancy. You can drill a hole through the foam and use a bungee to secure it.
We also carry spare plastic nuts - just put 2 onto an existing seat pin and the spare rudder stuck into the buoyancy foam.
Emergency fluid - we use the capri-sun soft-metal packs. Tastes horrible but comes in the right 300 ml size and take up minimum space. Other kit - as light and small as possible.
Spraydecks - we don't use them on the canal. The support crew gives us the neoprene zipped ones at Dreadnought. We carry 2 lightweight decks in the dry bag all the way through.
In general you shouldn't plan to open your kit bag unless it's an emergency.
Hope this helps.

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle »

Hi Wheezy,
Instead of using bungees to attach kit to the rear footrest we used a couple of cable ties to form loops through the holes in the flanges that the rear footrest connects too. (Short legs, plenty of holes to spare!) A lightweight ornamental krab went through the handle at the bottom of the dry bag to connect it one side and the top of the dry bag was clipped to the other side which makes emergency access quick and easy from the front cockpit. All our kit was stored here. We had 2 bags, one had just 2 sprint weight decks in for the canal that came out at Dreadnought reach and we put race decks on the boat then for the Thames. Marsport do sell a gear rack for K2s, but 2 cable ties are lighter!
A note of caution when storing stuff under seats, especially if you have the sort with just one centre pin fixing, the extra weight when portaging with the boat upside down puts more stress on this fitting and can cause issues with the seats moving and the fixing breaking.

Hi Andy,
We had a portage battle with a yellow boat. They ran Crofton as we paddled it. We overtook them as they stopped for support, a ladies K2 and the rear paddler had a distinctive (Yes, you can say hideous) pink hat with hearts on, that was me.
We were pleased to finish having dropped the boat again and broken another rudder. The spare was out of true and that gave us steering issues and caused Sarah's wrist to flare up. Made an effort to finish to get the T shirt, the pots were an unexpected bonus. (As some Club supporters said, the fast girls mostly didn't turn up, you got lucky)

Wheezy
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:10 pm

Re: DW 2012

Post by Wheezy »

That's great, thanks for the tips.

I've actually just epoxyed a rear bolt for each seat to stop them flapping about so having the emergency bags tpaed under there shouldn't be a problem. I like the idea of the kit bar to go in front of Adam's footrest. I can make one up fairly easliy so I'll give that a go.

andy g
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Re: DW 2012

Post by andy g »

Hi Eliza
Yes I remember the run at Crofton, I was the guy in front of the boat in a high-viz tabard running like hell to encourage them. They did have quite a long stop after the run , so I am not surprised that you got through, good luck to you and congrats on the pot. I did comment on someone's pink outfit but I got the impression that both female paddlers were similarly afflicted (sorry I meant clothed!)

PS: Message for all support crew. If you dress in a high viz tabard everyone seems to think you are a race official and I kept getting other support crew asking me questions and volunteering that their crew had pulled out etc. It is nice to feel wanted of course but I felt a bit of a fraud by the end of the day. I did however at the end give race control a list of all those who had relayed messages through me , and they seemed eternally grateful so perhaps it was useful after all.

Andy

barmy
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Re: DW 2012

Post by barmy »

We did Newbury to Dreadnought yesterday instead of the 'D' because we didnt want to get up at 3.30am.

We had a reasonably good run up to Fobney, portaging seemed to be clicking into place and all was well. UNTILL...... we met the killer swan of reading. We didn't see it at first then I spotted 'the beast' it was flying straight at us from the front, at first I thought 'its ok, it will gain height or change direction' but no, it was flying straight at us with the look of the devil in its eyes. I have no doubt that it meant to hit us. Anyhow. hit us is exactly what it did. I held up my paddle to try to fend it off and got my hand clobbered pretty hard in the process. I am pleased I did as the blow to my head turned into a glancing one. If not I dread to think whether my neck would have survived. My K2 partner managed to miss the action completely, he said afterwards that it seemed to bounce off me and over to one side. I hope it has a headache and I am now considering making a model swan to stick pins in.

The end result was we stayed upright although i'm not quite sure how we managed it. we amused the masses of reading, many of whom were falling about laughing and I am now waiting to see myself on 'youv'e been framed' and my hand is pretty bruised but thankfully not broken.

Oh, and prior to that, a fly commited suicide down my throat and nearly choked me to death and a near swim at a portage saw me smacked round the head by the rear mans paddle.

I am wondering of someone is trying to tell me something.
The obstacle isthe path
www.paddlemad.blogspot.com

Hackworth
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Location: Wiltshire

Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth »

Super.

One more thing to look forward to at Easter then... (A colleague was cheerfully predicting snow, no fuel for the cars, east wind, no flow, low levels in the canal, maybe baking hot in the day and snow at night, and I don't know what else - maybe earthquakes)

Exactly where does the damn thing live?

On Sunday I got the impression that the ones at Wide Water could be feisty, too. In 2010 we took buns to throw. It ate the buns and then came after us!

Glad you emerged relatively unscathed though - and the thing someone's trying to tell you is: paddlers are special!!

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle »

Hi Andy,
Your crew overtook us again between Little Bedwyn and Froxfield.
You are right to choose to wear something distinctive so that your crew can pick you out but as you have discovered yellow Hi Viz jackets are also worn by the marshalls and there are more of them than you. Orange and pink Hi viz jackets are much rarer, though I am not sure if you will want to wear pink after your comments about my hat :) (50p from Tescos in the sales- but it makes me easy to pick out when you have a boring coloured boat ) Alternatively wear Hi viz leggings ( try Sports Direct running section) and accessorize with a big hat- it gives you a funny silhouette and makes you easy to spot when the sun is low on the early long pound. If you want more conventional attire then a rugby shirt is good. I can always spot Gerry Rogers from Blackwater Valley CC because he always wears a Cornish rugby shirt, (black with yellow stripes) for support and when cold has his coat undone so it can be seen. At night you can wear a couple of coloured glow sticks so you can be spotted but don't wreck night vision. Be consistent about what you are wearing so that your crew can easily pick you out- very important later on when the portages get crowded and crews get tired.
Liz

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