DW 2012

Marathon, Freestyle, Polo, Slalom, Sprint, WWR, etc.
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lennart
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DW 2012

Post by lennart » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:50 pm

As Barmy started on the "old" 2011 tread. We will start the next one.

about the tide:
It will be interresting for the 4 day crews as well. Rumour I heard it that teh four day will go on the early tide. So I need to invest in some lights.

Rough plans for my are:
Try to get more people from Holland in the race.
Try to get into the boat meself again as well.
Make sure that the support is even better informed as this year.

see you there. I now know how things go.
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

michielv
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Re: DW 2012

Post by michielv » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:20 pm

I was aiming to take part in the 2013 race. That year I hopefully can celebrate 30 years of kayaking and figured DW would be an excellent opportunity to do so. A pity though that in 2013 Easter is also on my sons birthday :-(

Anyway, I'll keep in touch with you about the 2012 edition, I might be persuaded to join in on the 4 day version. I probably can't train as much as you did, well, not in the boat, but you know where my Speedstroke is stored ;-) . Perhaps we should talk to Ben as well, he'll be more than happy to paddle DW, I'm sure.

At least I started training after we talked earlier this week so "all" I have to do is keep up with it for the rest of the year ;-)


Cheers,

Michiel

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richard2
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Re: DW 2012

Post by richard2 » Tue May 03, 2011 5:57 am

I am quite possibly going to give this a try next year.
2 questions:
1. Possibly a silly question, are there any navigation difficulties? Or is it always obvious which channel to pick?
2. The k2 I intend to use is approx 30 years old, anyone have experience of using an old boat?!
Cheers!
Richard

lennart
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lennart » Tue May 03, 2011 7:18 am

1 there are a couple of islands on the Thames where you can those right or left. perhaps you can shorten your route by some 100's metres if you know right. If you paddle in the dark like in the straight through a number of weirs on the Thames are more difficult to navigate.
2 30 year old should not be a problem if the boat is in a good condition. watch the steering, and all the other bit and pieces. the magic things you look for in a dw boat are stable, light, good seats, fast, in this order.
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle » Thu May 05, 2011 10:29 pm

Hi Lennart,
Well done on your achievement. I saw you coming through Hungerford as I was on my way to see some of the junior crews. Now you know how things go, and you are a fast crew, have you given any thought to doing the overnight event?
Liz

lennart
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lennart » Fri May 06, 2011 7:23 am

@ eliza
Thank you for the compliments.
The start was really funny. All we knew was endeavour start between 7 and 8. Boat/kit check start at 6. so we are at the startline at about 7.15. Asks the wonderfull lady on the startline:
Are you a fast K2? I think you are, Please note that the finish will not be there before 1 pm.
Then we went blank (because what is fast how should we know? Our plan was an around 20 hour scheme so 6 hours on the first day. So 1pm would not be a problem. In the end we where faster.
On day 2 we had to start late. That was not very nice or our Dutch 1 man support crew. I am very glad that on day one we had 4 hours of paddling in the lead and learning our supportcrew the tricks of the support. if we had started late I think it would be very hard for him.

The problem of the non stop is that I have a liver disorder called syndrom of gilbert. If I get to tired my liver can not cope with that. It need rest (that means not eat for 48 hours) paddling for about 20 hours with 1 night of no sleep is a perfect recipe for going on that route I think. So the only way I think of hitting the non stop is a daytime run. Train more get in a faster boat so that a time around 18 hours is possible on the non stop. Also finding the Supportcrew for the nonstop will be a challenge. The four day with a 1 man support we can do. but a nonstop run no way.

Perhaps next year will be K1 or c2 , or we both find a slower partner. or we stop training :).
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle » Fri May 06, 2011 7:12 pm

Lennart, Now I understand why it is the 4 day event for you again. I am not sure if a day run will be an option next year what with the tide times and having to find extra volunteers to man the checkpoints. Maybe they will let us know next January. So your challenge for next year is to do the Endeavour again, but faster, or race in a different class of boat or with a junior partner. Part of me wanted to be paddling this Easter, my daughter also expressed an interest, but she is the fairest of fair weather paddlers and I am sure her enthusiasm for training will wane in the autumn and disappear entirely in the winter.
Liz

lennart
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lennart » Sat May 07, 2011 6:48 am

@ Eliza, Your doughter should have done it this year then, I guess better weather at DW is not possible. As long as she enjoys her paddling it will be fine.
Next year will depends on the other dutchies that hopefully will join. I guess finding a junior over here will be very difficult. Beating our time in endeavour will be easy. Boat speed can be increased, small tweaks at portaging, no swimming, no rescueing, propper fixing of pumps and the kit. A couple of marsport bottles so that I can see how much liquid I have left. Glue my blade properly on the shaft.... more running practise. But I guess both of us are not that interrested in doing it agian just to speed up . We rather paddle it again with someone else, so that more people can enjoy it.
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

michielv
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Re: DW 2012

Post by michielv » Sat May 07, 2011 10:27 am

@Lennart: perhaps you could start a little training group then? Especially as you will move to our neck of the woods shortly (that is, the house boat is still going on?). I'd be more than interested in some serious K2 paddling. Although you know my limits, lack of enthousiasm is not one of them ;-)

WarpedMind15
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Re: DW 2012

Post by WarpedMind15 » Sat May 07, 2011 1:16 pm

Hey All,

Apologies for changing the conversation slightly but I want some advice. I was diagnosed with cancer at the end of 2009 and since finishing treatment (i'm now 6 months clear), I have wanted to do something slightly stupid but physically challenging. My first thought was to kayak the channel, but after finding that I could not convince anyone to come with I heard of DW. Its only been a couple of days, but me and my coach want to do it in senior doubles. Neither of us have done anything like this before, we mostly have a whitewater and playboating background, but we are enthusiastic and want to do this properly.

I just wanted some advice as to training regimes, with an idea of diets and suchlike. I personally want to try and do it in around 27 hours, but I just wanted some advice to a rookie about how I should go about starting training.

Many thanks

Dom

lennart
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lennart » Sat May 07, 2011 3:18 pm

start as soon as possible, get a nice light stable k2 where you both feel good in. a pair of wings. Train aprox 3 times a week. Try to focus on technigue and enduracne first and get some speed after that say in autumn. try to paddle some the watersideserie and the Thamesside as well.
Keep paddling in winter. food is difficult to say try lots of different things for when you are racing. muelsibars engerygels , chocalate bananas flapjacks, fruit jellybears are the most common things you see on the race. Have fun on the training and on the race as well.
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

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lemming
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lemming » Mon May 09, 2011 9:11 pm

I think Lennart has just summed up all possible advice for training for the DW. In 3 lines in a foreign language. That's an achievement!!! It probably ought to be printed out and stuck on all club house walls - but possibly with the last sentence in bold!
Anyone who thinks that paddling involves rowing is talking rollocks

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle » Mon May 09, 2011 9:51 pm

@WarpedMind15
I cannot emphasise the "focus on technique" part enough, good technique will make your race so much easier. As whitewater paddlers and playboaters you are probably not used to using your whole body to produce an efficient forward paddling stroke. If you have a flatwater racing club near you they may be able to provide some coaching or Marsport do DW coaching seminars http://www.marsport.co.uk/Racing/DW/dw.html or online there are plenty of clips of marathon kayaking races and technique.

wetdog
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Re: DW 2012

Post by wetdog » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:01 am

Hi folks,

Looking for a bit of DW C2 advice from all you experienced DW C2ists - Thanks to Eliza Dolittle for all the help so far in pointing me here!

Here's a quick summary:

"Enjoyed" the "Fun" of DW senior K2 twice - now fancy it C2 with a mate who has zero paddling experience.
THE boat is apparently a Wenonah Jensen 18
We have a tiny budget
New Jensen 18's are well above our tiny budget
Second hand Jensen 18's seem to be rare as hens teeth, rocking horse s**t etc etc
I'm a dab hand at boat building

So I've got the beginnings of a cunning plan to build our own boat. I've found some plans for a selway fisher "Marathon" boat that seem to roughly match the dimensions of the Jensen 18

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Opcan17.htm#THON

It also comes in at just 60lbs compared to the full kevlar ultralight Jensen at 39lbs which bearing in mind that its plywood seems pretty good. I'd intend to section some parts with Kevlar sheet as opposed to plywood anyway to further reduce weight.

So C2ists - do you think it looks like a similar design and do you think it would make a competitive boat?

Thanks in advance!

lennart
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lennart » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:58 am

@wetdog.
I guess i would try to find a job for the hours you are looking to spend on building that boat.
I have build a slo canoe it took me about 120 hours and that is according to most fast. It is reasonably light at 18 kilo. No way I would try to paddle that weight on the dw even if the shape was fast. 120 times 10 pounds addes with about 500 for the materials. puts you hopefully near enough.
keep looking for a second hand one. they sometimes come up for graps. lete evereybody that have such a boat know that you are looking for one. a minnesota 2 or one of the newer racing boats could do the trick as well. but kelvar ultralight or better is the way to go I think.

I know that I had a light boat (k2 ) on the dw this year. and boy I liked it. I have seen PE boats that where very heavy. (I guess, I did not pick then up)

at 76 portages , every ounce you can save is one.
I hope you will find one.
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

wetdog
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Re: DW 2012

Post by wetdog » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:24 am

Thanks Lennart,

I'm all good on the building process and already have plenty of materials, resins, composites, ply etc etc. I actually enjoy it so it's not simply a cost saving excercise. I've completed much more complicated designs for power and sail. It'd be an awesome experience to complete DW in a boat you've made yourself!

I've got a vac bagged kevlar K2 and totally agree on the weight thing which is why I plan to use kevlar/carbon weave in the construction in place of ply. This should easily bring it below the 20 kilo mark and so only around 5 kilo's more than a "Kevlar Ultralight" Jensen 18.

It's really about the hull shape and design. The dimensions look similar but I'm looking to all you C2 experts to give me a steer as to whether it looks, on paper, like a reasonable design for DW.

Thanks again for your help!

kvin
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Re: DW 2012

Post by kvin » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:45 pm

I'm certainly no expert but did DW in a jensen 18 this year - I thought it was a fantastic boat and definitely the model to aim for - or as similar to it as you can. Fast yet stable and light too. We did one or two training paddles with some fast guys in a racy model - think it was a v1 or similar - and although they were much more experienced there was a paddle where they got out and walked/ran Henley straight while we ploughed straight on through the waves!

Presumably you'll be looking at bent shaft paddles too - they're not cheap but they are very effective, we used grey owl ravens at about 14 ounces but a couple of hundred quid a piece and we had a spare as well! We ended up using the spare on the tideway when the handle came off my paddle.

Our Jensen had just been taken in to Marsport to sell - I went in for a bouyancy and came out with the jensen. Must never take credit card to Marsport again.....

Hackworth
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:56 am

The reason Jensen's are hard to find second hand is that you can use them fo camping, touring, pub trips etc when you're not racing. And they're so nice to paddle that anything else with any capacity feels clumsy and slow. I bought mine to start racing, and then to use for camping when I was bored with racing. If I needed to sell, it would be the last of my canoes to go.

As far as the OP goes, it's hard to tell what the proposed design is like without seeing the end view.

The Jensen is a shallow arch with a bit of tumblehome. I wonder what compromises on the proposed shape were made in order to fit it to 5 planks a side... A large part of the Jensen's charm comes from the fact that the design is flatter, across a wider section, in the bottom than normal for a fast boat, and this gives it good stability and capacity. Another bonus is that you shouold have a good steady boat for the tideway, where things can get nasty if it's wind against tide, or you get big boat washes.

I don't quite follow the bit about using some Kevlar and some plywood. Are you proposing to make some Kevlar planks, and mix these with some plywood?

If I were building this boat, I would be tempted to go crazy thin on the plywood, and then add reinforcing ribs a bit like a wood and canvas design. This could give you stiffness without much weight, especially if you stiffened it in a geodesic pattern. and used balsa stiffening covered in 1 ounce fibreglass. Very thin plywood would also reduce the size of exposed edges on the hull, which would make for smoother progress through the water

As far as competitive - well, a Jensen is not competitive if an averagely well paddled ICF turns up. And that's been the case in recent times, more so now that there must be about 12 or so of these in the country now. Nevertheless, fastest 18'6'' boat is a title well worth claiming!

In short, I think this will work, but you'll be a little slower than a Jensen. Any effort you spend on saving weight will be well rewarded. Bear in mind that not only have you got to pick it up and put it down a lot, if it's 20 pounds heavier you also displace that much more water when moving. And round about Boulters in the middle of the night in the rain, that canoe, with a few pounds of water plus the compulsory kit can feel pretty heavy.

Keep us posted on progress.

Good luck - and we'll see you there next Easter!

lennart
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Re: DW 2012

Post by lennart » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:35 am

Perhaps skin on frame will work. That is the lightest way for a homebuilds I guess.
I am looking into that meself. Not sure if it will work.
Like Hackworth I hope to see the progress. If you end up doing the 4 day, I hope to be there next year.
Propper Writing in English, how do you do that, with dyslexia, bad hand eye coordination, ect. and in a foreign language
sorry fore all the mistakes.

michielv
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Re: DW 2012

Post by michielv » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:32 pm

lennart wrote:Perhaps skin on frame will work. That is the lightest way for a homebuilds I guess.
I am looking into that meself. Not sure if it will work.
Like Hackworth I hope to see the progress. If you end up doing the 4 day, I hope to be there next year.
Perhaps a boat like this would work? http://www.capefalconkayak.com/tyak.html

Will SOF be rigid enough? I know it is supposed to be faster in waves at sea but will it also work on flatwater?

Hackworth
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:28 am

A kayak SOF has some advantages - the closed shape gives it a lot better stiffness. I guess you'd need a stronger frame for an open canoe, with more thwarts.

OR - just make it like the George Oliver C2's with a lot of kayak deck front and back. They're still canoes for the Watersides and the DW

Quite a nice idea. And it doesn't matter if it's a bit fragile, most racing canoes are fragile (cuts on underwater sharp stuff might be your only problem)

Eliza Dolittle
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Eliza Dolittle » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:22 pm

Searching the internet gives quite a selection of Skin on Frame Canoes.
The lightest canoe from this company is only 8 lbs (too short for the DW though) http://gaboats.com/
This guy just made up his design as he went along...http://www.bushcraft.ridgeonnet.com/canoe2.htm
Another blog with useful tips here http://www.qsl.net/ws8g/canoe.htm

chrism
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Re: DW 2012

Post by chrism » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:38 pm

Is it just me, or would others on here not buy a racing boat from somebody who starts their page about the racing boat they've made with:
I should start by saying that I hate racing kayaks. Fragile, expensive, tippy, and enough wetted surface to insure that each stroke feels like it's planted in molasses.
Particularly concerned about the last bit, given IME anything other than a racing boat feels like it's planted in molasses.

Hackworth
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Hackworth » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:45 am

I guess the message is that: 'they were all hateable until I made this one...'

Imagine how fast Lawler and Brown would be in something like this!

I've never been in one like this myself, but the thing I would watch for would be the skin tending to buckle inwards. That would tend to make the shape slower.

It is interesting as a technique though. I might try one - oh wait, I need the shed to do it in first!

michielv
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Re: DW 2012

Post by michielv » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:51 am

Nautiraid made a foldable K1 (co-designed by Birgit Fischer) with lots of stringers to ensure hull shape. Perhaps you could make a fixed frame SOF with lots of stringers too? The stringers do not need to be that bulky, they are supposed to keep the skin in shape. You only need a few ticker/heavier stringers for frame strength. If you make the stringers out of bamboo you have a light, smooth, cheap solution and it is even waterproof too. :-)

An article on the Nautiraid K1: http://race.fit2paddle.com/C1159474119/ ... index.html

I am considering building a modern rules style foldable C1 (high kneel) of similar construction to the Nautiraid K1, with lots of inspiration from the foldable kayaks designed by Tom Yost (http://www.yostwerks.com/) . Not sure if it will work but it should be fun. Besides, this way I can build parts and only have to use a lot of space in my garage when finishing the boat, as opposed to a strip-built boat, which also crossed my mind, a mix of strip-built and stitch&glue for the wider, flat panels. See also http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... r-stripper and http://theancientkayaker.weebly.com/can ... e-lee.html. But this construction will probably too heavy for a DW boat.

BTK66
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Re: DW 2012

Post by BTK66 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:43 am

I finally got around to blogging our 2011 race. Hope you find it entertaining and that it encourages a few folks to give it a go.http://adventuresinpaddlingandit.blogspot.com/

barmy
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Re: DW 2012

Post by barmy » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:20 pm

Spoke to one of the DW peeps yesterday as I have to arrange childcare way in advance and was given the following info.

Tides are very early morning and late afternoon, 3am Sunday 8th and 4pm Sunday 8th I think, or thereabouts. They will not allow starters before 7am from devizes. working on the basis of 3 hours on the tideway that leaves a window of 20-22 hours for the rest of it (20 hours getting the top of the tide, 22 getting you there before it starts to turn back) making a total of 23-25 hours. Morning tide will mean doing the tideway in the dark. afternoon tide will mean doing the tideway late afternoon in the light with less river traffic than usual.

Therefore the general feeling was that if you thought you might be longer than 25 hours (we reckon on 26-27hrs) then go for the evening start at devizes.

Darkness starts to fall at around 8pm and the tunnel is not marshalled after this time. so try to time your start so you get through the tunnel before this time.
The bonus of this start time is that the canal will be done in the dark, where its hard to get lost and then when you are getting tired, the sun will come up giving a mental boost and meaning navigating the tricky river sections will be easier. Only downside is the wretched swing bridges which you have to duck under as they wont be as visible (dont bash your head on them)

Don't take this info as absolute but this is the general thoughts gained from my conversation yesterday with a lady who is on the DW committee. Apparently people planning on starting after 12noon Saturday need to inform the organisers.

I would love to hear other peoples thoughts.
The obstacle isthe path
www.paddlemad.blogspot.com

Mike Summersong
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Re: DW 2012

Post by Mike Summersong » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:46 pm

Hi Barmy,

Might be worth double checking the tide times as most tide tables are published in GMT not BST.The clocks will have moved forward an hour for April.

Therefore it looks like High Water at Richmond is 4.28 am BST and 17.01pm BST on Sunday 8th April 2012.

The sluices are open 2 hours before till 2 hours after high water but we will time it to hit this on the early side to cater for any - ahem - mishaps...

All the best Mike

barmy
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Re: DW 2012

Post by barmy » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:57 pm

Hiya Mike

I will check the times again but the times were given to me by the lock keeper at Teddington.
The obstacle isthe path
www.paddlemad.blogspot.com

hairybiker
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Re: DW 2012

Post by hairybiker » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:52 pm

Just looked at the tidal predictions for Richmond for April 8th. These give a high water time of 03:38 GMT, high water Teddington is supposed to be about the same time according to PLA guide so 04:38 BST. I guess the optimum time would be about 5 in the morning and it's a 5.1M tide so should be finished by 8!
No pleasure cruisers and probably miss most of the rowers too!

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