I've just ordered my first "Masters" marathon K1

[GregMiller]

Nelo Viper 46 Vs Quattro Classic

Due to the wealth of experience already posted on this thread I wanted to ask if anyone had any experience of the Nelo Viper 46?
I seems a lovely looking boat. I've got the 48 and was tempted to move along to the 46 but only if it was a nice progression and there is a noticeable difference. Anyone paddled one yet?

Also, any thoughts on how it compares to the Classic in terms of stability/speed?

[Krizzy]

Hi, I paddled the Viper46 a few times over Christmas and have to say I completely loved it right from the very first stroke. If I could afford it I'd have already ordered one (my mate paddled it and has ordered one!). It's a really stable boat so it's easy to focus entirely on getting power out of the stroke, but doesn't seem to run into a wall as the speed increases like I've felt other 'stable' k1's do. My 90kg was too much for the standard size, without doubt I'd need the new xxl. Haven't paddled the Classic so can't compare, but I have owned Epsilon, Lancer, Eta, and a good few other k1's and I consider the Viper46 to be by far the best I paddled for my level of skills.

[GregMiller]

Cheers Krizzy.
Appreciate the reply. Could I ask how the Viper 46 compares to the Eta you owned?
I've been starting to paddle about in an Eta but don't fancy my chances in any sort of wash/waves. At least the Viper 48 I have has a good bit of volume and I can get away with paddling it on the lake as well as flat water.
Is the 46 more stable or about the same as the Eta? Any views would be appreciated.
Many Thanks !

PS: Would you know the current price? I don't see them listed anywhere in the UK.

[alphasports]

I'd be curious regarding the V46 myself. I currently own a V48 that followed on the heels of a nice friendly V51 and prior to that a much-unloved Classic. I like the 48 and after my experiences would be very wary of changing to a 46, but am interested nonetheless. Unfortunately no one has one to try here in Montreal...all of my boats have been "order and hope for the best", very much trial and error (mostly error!).

Cheers and wishing everyone a great paddling season, hoping to get out today for my first of the year (ghastly cold spring).

[ink169]

Hello,

i thought i would keep this great thread going having read it all the way through again as i do every couple of years when i stumble upon it :)

I'm 56 having started paddling at 52 and presently in a low volume kirton typhoon (3/4) with some summer training in a Vajda Infusion II (2) which can be challenging in washes and rough conditions.

Thinking of trying an Nelo Quattro Classic hoping it would be somewhere in between the two?

cheers

Andy

[alphasports]

Hi, like you I check in here every now and then, especially since we got half a metre of snow yesterday ;)

I have not tried that particular Kirton nor the Vajda. I have owned a Classic and I'd rate it about a 2.5-3 on a scale of 10. The only thing that irked me about mine and which resulted in its disposal, is it is built as a "one size fits all" boat, so it's best suited to middleweight paddlers (60-70kgs???). I am 90kg and it's not great. Also when I had mine I was an "intermediate" paddler at best and the boat was far too twitchy for me. I currently have a Viper 51 and Viper 48, and depending on the weather/water even the 48 is too much. Granted, I absolutely stink as a paddler despite many years' effort!

I suppose the only wisdom I can suggest after all the boats I've been through is, if uncertain either DON'T BUY, or BUY BELOW YOUR PERCEIVED ABILITY. And check your ego at the door!

Cheers

[S44captain]

I recently got to paddle the Nelo Viper 46 Surf Ski and a Nelo Cinco Paracanoe. I was a lot faster in the Paracanoe and able to short sprints past 9mph. The viper Ski felt slower but more stable than my Tor. The Paracanoe felt like it had worst stability at rest but the similar stability once under way. The Paracanoe did have some secondary stability which came in handy once. I did race with a viper 48 at the USACK Nationals in 2017 with great results but I switched back to a Tor as the 48 for my weight was a hair tipper the my earlier Tor. I weigh 68kg and am 67 years old now. I’m starting to think that maybe the Paracanoe K-1s may be the perfect answer for the 50+ age group.

[Airconan]

I took the nelo viper 44 for a run last weekend, E lay-up. Sat nicely, nice glide and very stable. The increase in wetted area from the flat hull definitely creates more drag than the faster boats, but I sat comfortably beside a sete. A fun masters K1 though, really stable and I enjoyed the boat. My nelo quattro is definitely faster but alot more twitchy.
I ordered the Nordic Kayak K1 43, build quality is beautiful and everything says it's faster and more stable than the viper 44.
Also at 7kgs for CL build, a nelo E layup doesn't even come close and the nelo costs alot more. The NK build quality is second to none.
So if you are after a fast, light, stable marathon boat consider the NK K1s.

Thanks Conan

[Dary]

Hi. I took up 'Masters' K1 kayaking a couple of years ago at 50.

As a reference point, I'm 95kg, heavy set, and have spent many years paddling playboats and competition surf kayaks. With regard to skill level in these boats, I can do loops and cartwheels in a playboat and surf in any conditions. I'm very comfortable running rivers like the Dart in full spate in a playboat or charging down the face of a wave off the coast of Ireland in my surf kayak. So when I describe that I felt 'fear' paddling a K1, you will have a good benchmark for what I mean.

When I decided to take up K1 Masters racing at 50, I bought a Nelo Vintage Quattro XXL from a friend. I spent the first year repeatedly falling in and feeling fear every time I sat in that boat. I had to force myself to go out in that boat and didn't enjoy it. Over time, I adapted to the boat, but I always felt edgy in it. After a year, I could paddle the boat in most conditions, up to about ~20 kph winds (carefully picking lines to avoid waves hitting me side-on).

A few months ago, two years after buying the Quattro and now 52, I decided to start racing in the Irish Marathon Marathon series and bought a Nelo Sete XXL. It immediately felt more stable than the Quattro, and in flat, low wind conditions, it is a lovely fast boat. I really enjoy paddling it in those conditions. It is probably about 10 seconds plus faster per kilometre than the Vintage Quattro.

However, at the start of a busy race, or when it is windy and you have to paddle across the face of waves, with the waves hitting you side-on, it is a nightmare. I simply can't put down power when the conditions are rough, and just about every race that I have entered so far involves padding in rough conditions. Two weeks ago, I recall looking down at the hull about 30 meters after the start of the race in rough conditions, and the entire front of the boat was underwater.

I just came back from another marathon race today, where waves were hitting me side-on over one leg of the course, with about 20 kph wind gusts turning me into the wind, despite the tiller being fully to one side. At that point, I decided I needed a more stable boat for races like that, as this wasn't working for me. There is no point in having a boat where I can go sub-5-minute splits in ideal race conditions with no one near me and barely manage 6:30-minute splits in rough conditions or boats paddling around me.

A quick internet search and catch-up on this thread suggest that a marathon-spec Nelo Viper 44 might be a good option.

What do you recommend?

[Dary]

... I just came back from another marathon race today, where waves were hitting me side-on over one leg of the course, with about 20 kph wind gusts turning me into the wind, despite the tiller being fully to one side.

It transpires that yesterday during the race, the rudder was loose and moving freely, which explains why the full rudder had no effect and I kept spinning into the wind. I also think it might have been loose on the previous race, as I hadn't tightened it since I bought it, and driving up and down the motorway with the boat on a roof rack probably doesn't help.

I will stick with the Sete for another few races to see if I can adapt to the race conditions. Getting my weight back below 90kg will probably also help, as the boat is rated for 85kg to 95kg.

[Chris Bolton]

wind gusts turning me into the wind

When a sea kayak is turning into the wind, it's because the weight is too far forward, so you move some of your gear aft. You might try moving the seat a bit.

[outofphase]

I ordered the Nordic Kayak K1 43, build quality is beautiful and everything says it's faster and more stable than the viper 44.
Also at 7kgs for CL build, a nelo E layup doesn't even come close and the nelo costs alot more. The NK build quality is second to none.
So if you are after a fast, light, stable marathon boat consider the NK K1s.

Did you get your NK 43 yet? Does it live up to expectations?

I'm finding it hard to get any info online about this, other than from NK's and dealers' websites, which is all very similar.

[ink169]

Hi. I took up 'Masters' K1 kayaking a couple of years ago at 50.

As a reference point, I'm 95kg, heavy set, and have spent many years paddling playboats and competition surf kayaks. With regard to skill level in these boats, I can do loops and cartwheels in a playboat and surf in any conditions. I'm very comfortable running rivers like the Dart in full spate in a playboat or charging down the face of a wave off the coast of Ireland in my surf kayak. So when I describe that I felt 'fear' paddling a K1, you will have a good benchmark for what I mean.

When I decided to take up K1 Masters racing at 50, I bought a Nelo Vintage Quattro XXL from a friend. I spent the first year repeatedly falling in and feeling fear every time I sat in that boat. I had to force myself to go out in that boat and didn't enjoy it. Over time, I adapted to the boat, but I always felt edgy in it. After a year, I could paddle the boat in most conditions, up to about ~20 kph winds (carefully picking lines to avoid waves hitting me side-on).

A few months ago, two years after buying the Quattro and now 52, I decided to start racing in the Irish Marathon Marathon series and bought a Nelo Sete XXL. It immediately felt more stable than the Quattro, and in flat, low wind conditions, it is a lovely fast boat. I really enjoy paddling it in those conditions. It is probably about 10 seconds plus faster per kilometre than the Vintage Quattro.

However, at the start of a busy race, or when it is windy and you have to paddle across the face of waves, with the waves hitting you side-on, it is a nightmare. I simply can't put down power when the conditions are rough, and just about every race that I have entered so far involves padding in rough conditions. Two weeks ago, I recall looking down at the hull about 30 meters after the start of the race in rough conditions, and the entire front of the boat was underwater.

I just came back from another marathon race today, where waves were hitting me side-on over one leg of the course, with about 20 kph wind gusts turning me into the wind, despite the tiller being fully to one side. At that point, I decided I needed a more stable boat for races like that, as this wasn't working for me. There is no point in having a boat where I can go sub-5-minute splits in ideal race conditions with no one near me and barely manage 6:30-minute splits in rough conditions or boats paddling around me.

A quick internet search and catch-up on this thread suggest that a marathon-spec Nelo Viper 44 might be a good option.

What do you recommend?

Hey Dary - yes there is definitely a strong case for a more stable 'race boat' where you can put down maximum power in rougher conditions which mass/group start conditions (mostly) always provide !

After also starting paddling in my 50's i have ended up with 3 boats - one bread and butter everyday boat which i can use in club training sessions and solo timetrials and generally any conditions which arent super wavy like a start with 30 boats all going for broke off the line
(Kirton Typhoon - stability 3/4)

For these race / super crap conditions I have a Viper 40 which is the same width but much flatter hull (Stability 5.5 i would say) - this is what i would recommend for you - something 1 or 2 stability levels below your daily trainer

I also have a Stability 1/2 Vajda Infusion 2 which i love and pushes me to get more stable but i couldnt do any sort of group race in it

Hope ths helps a bit, viva paddling !! :)

Andy ink

[Airconan]

I ordered the Nordic Kayak K1 43, build quality is beautiful and everything says it's faster and more stable than the viper 44.
Also at 7kgs for CL build, a nelo E layup doesn't even come close and the nelo costs alot more. The NK build quality is second to none.
So if you are after a fast, light, stable marathon boat consider the NK K1s.

Did you get your NK 43 yet? Does it live up to expectations?

I'm finding it hard to get any info online about this, other than from NK's and dealers' websites, which is all very similar.

Hi,

I had to buy the NK43 without a Demo as its the only boat here in NZ.
Okay the good, the boat is really stable for a 43cm wide K1. It took a few sessions to adapt as it does any new boat, now I very much understand the limitations.
The boat almost feels like its got a reasonable amount of secondary from the wider rounded hull. First time out it was very choppy, all the juniors were upside down, but not the NK, stable as a rock.
That brings me to the bad.
Do not buy the CLS version, carbon foam sandwich, it dents and damages very easy. I found myself up on a submerged log, touching the Jetty, all causing damage. The boat will need a refurb after a while.
Speed: It will quite happily sit upstream between 10-11kph and down stream 11-12kph. The boat requires a significant amount of energy to achieve over 14kph, so the video online of Emma indicating 13-14 with ease doesn't sit correct with my findings.
I haven't really sprinted the boat yet, but really its not capable of keeping up with my Nelo Quattro (19KpH), Quattro glide is far superior, but as always its a trade off.
The NK is a fantastic fitness boat, but really if you want to race competitively this boat is not the answer.
Would I buy again, probably not and would just buy an A1 layup Nelo 44 for fitness, far cheaper and more durable, to me Nelo have the advantage of building quality race boats and its reflective, not based on a Ski heritage.

Hope this helps.