You MUST paddle tandem!

One blade only
Post Reply
Mike A
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: In me boat
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Mike A »

Changes to the star awards mean you have to paddle solo and tandem and 3 and 4 star by the looks of it. Boo, I hate paddling tandem!

On the brighter side, OC1 will have their own awards

Mike

http://www.canoescotland.org/Portals/0/ ... 202013.pdf

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Don't you remember the consultation document where you were asked what you thought about this? I'm guessing there must have been a consensus from the paddling community in favour of the change, after all, the number of people you see paddling tandem canoe on grade 2-3 whitewater!

twopigs
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by twopigs »

Is it not typical of our NGB that those of us south of the Border find this via UKRGB?

Seriously - I think the requirement to paddle solo AND tandem for open canoe awards is great - I've seen 4 star OC leader holders fail miserably to paddle tandem which would have an obvious downside if they ever had to paddle a group out of a river after damaging a boat.

I seem to recall we might have contributed to the review - at least of 2 star .......... Perhaps the contributors were mainly coach educators and 4 & 5 star providers.
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
mharrall
Posts: 2966
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:28 am
Location: Trowbridge Wilts. UK

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by mharrall »

develop the 4 Star Leader Award so that it is obviously appropriate for leaders who take full
responsibility for leading trips, as well as equipping paddlers with the skills to paddle safely
with their peers. Along with this comes the need to strengthen the syllabus so leaders could
look after less experienced paddlers in easier conditions, and more experienced paddlers out
in the top end of the moderate water definition. The review found that the current 4 Star
Leader Award was being used in this way and most providers interpreted the Syllabus as
above. However, more clarity was required to ensure that it was clearer to candidates,
providers, and deployers


I wonder if current 4 star leaders will automatically upgraded to this new remit or whether they will be held at the old remit in some way?

Martin
Martin

twopigs
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by twopigs »

mharrall wrote:develop the 4 Star Leader Award so that it is obviously appropriate for leaders who take full
responsibility for leading trips, as well as equipping paddlers with the skills to paddle safely
with their peers. Along with this comes the need to strengthen the syllabus so leaders could
look after less experienced paddlers in easier conditions, and more experienced paddlers out
in the top end of the moderate water definition. The review found that the current 4 Star
Leader Award was being used in this way and most providers interpreted the Syllabus as
above. However, more clarity was required to ensure that it was clearer to candidates,
providers, and deployers


I wonder if current 4 star leaders will automatically upgraded to this new remit or whether they will be held at the old remit in some way?

Martin
When they set the remit of the MWE to Grade 2(3) us classic BCU Level 3 coaches had our remits inflated...... Or maybe old style Grade 2 is now classed as grade 2(3)????? ;-D
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
mharrall
Posts: 2966
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:28 am
Location: Trowbridge Wilts. UK

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by mharrall »

Yes that makes good sense, just a slight increase in grade, but "equipping paddlers with the skills to paddle safely
with their peers"
sounds like coaching to me. So leaders can now coach? Hope so.
Martin

User avatar
chris241
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by chris241 »

Good knows how they are going to fit this into the assessment. There's so much to squeeze in anyway. If they are saying that you have to paddle both tandem and solo then presumably this means both on open water and moving water. Then they'll have to see you in both bow and stern in both environments. And leading from a tandem boat in each environment? That's a lot extra to fit in and still give enough time for candidates to show what they can do on the rest of the syllabus. I wonder if it will end up just being covered in training and only given token coverage at assessment.

twopigs
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by twopigs »

chris241 wrote:Good knows how they are going to fit this into the assessment. There's so much to squeeze in anyway. If they are saying that you have to paddle both tandem and solo then presumably this means both on open water and moving water. Then they'll have to see you in both bow and stern in both environments. And leading from a tandem boat in each environment? That's a lot extra to fit in and still give enough time for candidates to show what they can do on the rest of the syllabus. I wonder if it will end up just being covered in training and only given token coverage at assessment.
Yeah well ........ maybe they will work out that you need 3 days for the assessment! As a leader if I had to paddle and lead tandem I'd be happier in the stern and so arrange the second paddler appropriately (and have done in a new environment.)
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

So, is there to be a requirement for tandem poling, if not, why not? The argument that it is too difficult seems inappropriate for this skill level.

Will the whitewater kayak syllabus include tandem kayaking, if not why not? Who would otherwise be competent to lead tandem paddlers in TopoDuos?

twopigs
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by twopigs »

Adrian Cooper wrote:So, is there to be a requirement for tandem poling, if not, why not? The argument that it is too difficult seems inappropriate for this skill level.

Will the whitewater kayak syllabus include tandem kayaking, if not why not? Who would otherwise be competent to lead tandem paddlers in TopoDuos?
Good questions and ones that require an answer. What about tandem freestyle? and obviously tandem sea kayaking? :-D

Why should open boaters be discriminated against?
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14110
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Jim »

Well that will stop me ever doing any more stars, and may well reign in my dad too - we don't do tandem well, espescially not together! We tried it last year and ended up swimming, and arguing a lot about the line and paddling style!

And don't forget all the double inflatable kayaks used for guiding complete beginners - all the guides in those should be made to demonstrate adequate standard of paddling them before being let loose with a client in the front.

User avatar
Dave B
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:28 pm
Location: Kidderminster

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Dave B »

I was wondering what was happening about the 4*'s. Nothing on BCU or Canoe England website as usual. Thanks Scotland, at least you are on the ball and care about the rank and file paddlers.

Fast Pat
Posts: 475
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:16 am
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Fast Pat »

Mike A wrote:Changes to the star awards mean you have to paddle solo and tandem and 3 and 4 star by the looks of it. Boo, I hate paddling tandem!

On the brighter side, OC1 will have their own awards

Mike

http://www.canoescotland.org/Portals/0/ ... 202013.pdf
Publication date 1st April - perhaps?

Mike A
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: In me boat
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Mike A »

Fast Pat wrote:
Publication date 1st April - perhaps?
I did wonder about that, but its too detailed, long and not funny to be an April fool.

It is now on the CE website, but as always the site is not user friendly or at least it never appears to give out useful information without looking.

I wonder though if this drive in remit of all 4*'s and the tandem aspect of open boats is being driven from the needs of industry / paid paddlers (think PGL led trips down Ardeche) rather than of what an individuals / BCU members needs are? The majority of personal ww paddling in opens appears to be solo, so I cant really see teh need for change other than to meet commercial needs

Looking forwards to see the request for information review in code, although by the looks of it this will relate more to 2* than what members think of the compulsion to paddle tandem.

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14110
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Jim »

To be honest, the last time the coaching scheme was revised around 1997 or 1998 it became pretty common for assessors to write on a candidates development plan that they should get more experience of other craft (canoe if doing kayak awards and vice versa, and to get a mix of solo and tandem) - did all that die out subsequently? If not surely this is just a small step forward? Mind you, it will add a lot of extra hassle for assessments - does each candidate need to show up with a tandem and a solo canoe?

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Actually I paddle tandem quite a bit but maybe not in the way a 4 star assessor might want. In the summer I take holidays on easy whitewater with my wife and a small dog (troika?) but I do all the guiding, steering and provide a lot of the propulsion.

Jim makes an interesting point about having two boats, here in the UK (and I guess in most other countries) most people paddle canoes capable of seating two paddlers but if you have a solo canoe or have stripped out a seat for use by yourself only, you would need another boat for the assessment.

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14110
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Jim »

Well my canoe is a single but it probably gets a different assessment (ocoee)?

My dads Wenonah prospector 15 is usually rigged for solo paddling - it was a 20 minute job to re-configure it for tandem before we took it for a swim.... at least he keeps the seats in just in case! I seem to remember borrowing my brothers mad river 15 a few years ago and having to re-cover the seats - he'd taken the straps off for some reason and never got round to refitting them because he never used them!

wild river
Posts: 656
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:01 pm
Location: cumbria
Contact:

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by wild river »

Hi folks
Can I try to clarify the tandem stuff for this.
The concept behind this is that a 4 star leader can lead either tandem or solo boats. It would seem reasonable that they would have an understanding of how tandem canoes work as well as solo. I would also seem reasonable that a solo leader could paddle a rapid tandem or cross the river tandem where it might be neccesssary for a range of reasons. Please dont get too carried away with this. The detail hasnt been finalised but hopefully the concept is fairly reasonable
Sean

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I don’t think people are getting carried away. The BCU need to appreciate the effect of changes in the syllabi on the ground. I think I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the requirement for tandem paddling will reduce the number of candidates deciding to undertake this assessment. Very few canoeists at 4* standard paddle tandem on a regular basis. I really don’t understand why a 4* leader cannot lead both solo and tandem. If there was a requirement for solo leaders to paddle tandem on a rare occasion, it might have been considered in the past 25 years of the awards.

Then we get on to the issue of the market for the awards. Do the BCU ever ask the canoeing community what they want out of the awards, maybe ask the clubs what standards they think are appropriate? I think we all know the answer to that question. In order to make the awards work, they need to be relevant to the people who want to take them, they are increasingly becoming a set of dictates from on high and I am guessing people are getting fed up with it.

How about a few of the other questions raised on this subject getting even the hint of a response:

Will there be a tandem requirement for 4* sea
Will there be a tandem requirement for 5* canoe and 5* sea
Will there be a tandem requirement for 4* WW (given that there are quite a few tandem kayaks out there)
Will the tandem requirement extend to poling

But it is not sufficient simply to get yes/no answers to these questions, they need considered responses. It cannot be appropriate for a 4* CN candidate to be assessed for tandem canoeing by a 5* canoeist who has not also been assessed to paddle tandem at 5*. How many of these are there?

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14110
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Jim »

To me the inherent problem of solo and tandem requirement in the same award is that when you paddle tandem you are a team, so you would need to be assessed as a team and not an individual. If the other person that gets stuck in the boat for assessment is unable to work as a team with the person being assessed will they fail? Will it be necessary for people to develop a tandem partnership and make sure they always take their partner to assessments? If the team is assessed does that mean the partner also has to be going for the same award to do the solo part?

Also, many tandem teams only work as a team when in set positions within the boat, indeed it is not uncommon for the lighter paddler to always be the bow paddler due to the effect on trim - where then is there any value at all in having candidates paddle in bow and stern positions when they would normally only paddle in one or the other.

I thought the whole idea of making these into leadership awards was to encourage development of 'soft skills' related to leadership, instead it now seems necessary for the leader to be able to take personal charge of any boat in a group - with respect that is not leadership, it is usurption - pretty much theopposite of good leadership. We would have been better served by the old proficiency awards where you knew it was mostly about personal skills and an ability to be part of a group - not a leader or usurper though.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Indeed Jim, if you are being assessed as a tandem paddler, you need to know that the other paddler is up to the standard. If not, you paddle tandem like a solo.

For example, I often paddle with my wife and we will paddle up to grade 2 because she doesn’t like anything more bouncy. She is not a paddler, she is a ‘useful passenger’; I take all the decisions from the back, she tells me if we are approaching something which might not be visible to me but I give her all the instructions. I think we call that a team?

I have been in a position of rescuing a paddler on a grade 2-3 river who had lost his boat, in theory he was up to the standard despite having taken a few swims. It quickly became clear that he needed more instruction than I could assume so I ended up telling him what to do too. He might well have been the sort of fellow candidate I would come across on a 4* course, I would hope the assessor would be able to judge my abilities separate from his whilst we were in the boat together charging at rocks. What could be assessed would be my ability to control the boat with another person up front but I am guessing that is another example of solo paddling.

twopigs
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by twopigs »

Adrian Cooper wrote: I have been in a position of rescuing a paddler on a grade 2-3 river who had lost his boat, in theory he was up to the standard despite having taken a few swims. It quickly became clear that he needed more instruction than I could assume so I ended up telling him what to do too. He might well have been the sort of fellow candidate I would come across on a 4* course, I would hope the assessor would be able to judge my abilities separate from his whilst we were in the boat together charging at rocks. What could be assessed would be my ability to control the boat with another person up front but I am guessing that is another example of solo paddling.
Wrong Adrian, that is paddling tandem with an impairment which will be in the 2016 version of 3*, 4* and 5* open canoe.... :-D
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
mharrall
Posts: 2966
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:28 am
Location: Trowbridge Wilts. UK

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by mharrall »

Gents,

It seems to me that if you were leading a group of paddlers of lesser ability than yourself (no longer leading a peer group), then this is exactly the sort of thing that you might be expected to cope with, so I think allowances would have to be made. Also, if assessments are supposed to be done with a group of paddlers who are just there to be led and not assessed in their own right, then you will probably get less able paddlers in the group during your assessment.

Martin
Martin

Mike A
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: In me boat
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Mike A »

Has anyone been able to fathom if this solo and tandem requirement will also apply to the touring award?

Given that the touring award covers you for leading a mixed bunch of craft, which is often the case, if it is so vital that canoe leadrrs can multi discipline to cover eventualities, should those who pass in kayak demonstrate that they could assist an open member of their group? Etc etc

Its all a bit grey, where do you draw the line?

Mike

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14110
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Jim »

Mike A wrote:
Its all a bit grey, where do you draw the line?

Mike
Total convergence?

i.e. for each you need to be able to paddle all types of canoe and kayak that the BCU recognize therefore the discipline specific awards can be replaced by a single multi-discipline award at each level.

If so, you need to start thinking about paddle boards and surf kayaks...... :-)

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Although I see in CODE they are proposing that touring award assesors will be able to assess either dicipline rather than be required to assess both. Removing an obstacle I identified about 5 years ago.

tenboats1
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:59 am
Location: scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: You MUST paddle tandem!

Post by tenboats1 »

Adrian Cooper wrote:So, is there to be a requirement for tandem poling, if not, why not? The argument that it is too difficult seems inappropriate for this skill level.

?
Other than as a party piece I can't see the point in tandem poling in the real world. When journeying tandem and faced with poling I pole solo and my partner portages with the heaviest bag.

The award should guard against loosing any credibility it has.

(I redid my 4* training a while ago in tandem, just for the hell of it and we did do some tandem poling, but in very easy and rather pointless conditions. The trainer included it on the basis of lets have ago, rather than we really need to do this. I was planning on retaking both my 4 and 5* in tandem, but then thought my time and money was better spent just getting coaching for tandem. Then I was ill, then my partner was injured.........how on earth folk will get everything together for tandem assessment I don't know!!)

Some coaches on the 'lets make more money' bandwaggon reckon that leading a group solo is different to tandem......I don't agree. You have to make the same allowances for different abilities solo, the leadership skills are the same.

In the BCU terms of reference document 4* gives you remit for 4 solo boats (4 people) or 3 tandem boats (6 people). 5* is the same but on Gd3 etc.
So the existing award already covers you for tandem work. :)

TB

Post Reply