Access Agreements

[RAO Cumbria]

A simple plea,

With all this lovely water around at the moment it is a great time to get out. Please make an effort to find out about what access agreements are in place in the region you are going to be paddling in, and think about the consequences of paddling a river outside the negotiated agreement dates.

This is happening a lot at the moment in Cumbria, specifically on the Crake, and has the potential to destroy the current agreement.

Agreements on the Greta, Middle Derwent, and the Crake do not take effect until 1st November, after which there is open paddling until 31st March. On the Greta and middle Derwent paddling is also agreed in the months of April, May, June & July before 4pm

There is no paddling on the Eamont flowing out of Ullswater during the month of November.

There are agreed dates to paddle the Leven.

The Eden is complex and it is best to contact Carlisle canoes for details

Details of the appropriate River Advisors can be found on the BCU website for further information on specific rivers

For regularly fished rivers without an agreement, you will probably encounter conflict if you paddle before 1st November.

Thanks. Happy paddling,

Mark Davies
BCU Regional Access Officer - Cumbria
cumbriaaccess@aol.com

[morsey nli]

Let me think about this request for a minute.................

Nope! will not be bothering with that thanks all the same.

Simon :)

[Guest]

Let me think about this request for a minute.................

Nope! will not be bothering with that thanks all the same.

Perhaps you'd like to think a little longer and harder, you do realise that your selfish attitude could jeapordise the limited amount of access that is available for the rest of us?

[James Hartley]

Was it not decided on this forum not to long ago that we weren't recognising paddling restrictions on any river, in fact you could get away with quoting discrimination laws against minority groups (here we the boaters/paddlers/kayakers/canoers are the minority group) when compared to other groups with rights to roam anywhere

[morsey]

No is still the answer. I fully backed off all rivers in respect of the amount of work being done esp. by the WCA and that has come to nothing as far as I can see, so now there is no need to respect access agreements.

My selfish attitude! The limited access is because of many things and not down solely to my actions, so sorry I do not buy the guilt trip!

BCU get on the case, get a national campaign, get staff fulltime on the access trail and get some results! Forget little agreements here and there and stop holding up the "you will lose everything" card. We have nothing therefore we have nothing to lose. It is complete lunacy that I can get in my car hop north over the border or hop on a boat over the channel and paddle as I wish, yet in my own country I'm not allowed.

Guest I think maybe it is you who needs to think longer on the subject, Since 1981 I've put up with the situation. Previously I have gone about my boating quietly & discreetly and to be fair I personally do not need an access agreement because I can carry on as usual. The fact is that I would rather put my name forward as many others have done so to point out what a farce the access law is and demand change rather than accepting the current situation.

Dee days! This as I see it is likely not to have much effect. People have backed off rivers given the BCU & WCA the space to try and get things sorted and if they are really the voice of canoeists in England & Wales it is they who should be leading a national campaign so as to have maximum impact and effect. (This is not meant to abuse the Dee Days organisers, for what it is an admirable effort)

I am an active paddler and where the rain falls is where I go and I’m afraid that searching for access permission does not work within the time scale that I and many others operate in. The access agreements and permit application could be made real-time/online, but that is a reaction to a current inadequate system not a solution to the lack of access.

Get access for all rivers and then get the local officers to help set up river protection plans so we can take responsibility for the promotion and use of the rivers. I would welcome restricted access to rivers if it was for reasons such as:
Promoting bank regrowth at access/egress/portage points.
Protecting special sites at specific times (spawning grounds, nesting sites etc).
In fact anything that helps us as canoeists to help maintain the beautiful and fragile environments to which we are very fortunate to be able to travel uniquely through.

Simon :)

[Guest]

Agree with Simon entirely.

and here's the rant....

I too have held back on running rivers because I have been waiting for access agreements to be sorted and have ended up waiting YEARS!! I'm going to be too old to enjoy them, if they should ever happen.

I feel for most RAO's for they are volunteers and put up with a lot of shit from both "sides", but last years events have really polarised opinion. (I say most because I strongly believe that some RAO's have vested interest in the status quo - take the DEE and rumours about developments upstream). I would encourage RAO's to resign on MASS, perhaps then our governing bodies would take note.

After careful consideration I too am ignoring access agreements where I paddle. This does not mean that I will paddle if the rivers are low and I will cause damage to potential spawning beds of larval hatchings, but I will make my own decisions based upon informed common sense.

The BCU, what a shower of shite! and the WCA are no better. Fancy having a tag line of X thousand miles of inland waterways to paddle to trotted out in all their "access consultation" when in reality most people effected by access problems want to paddle white water or tour natural rivers not bloody canals!!

I will also refuse to pay to use the Tryweryn unless I decide I need to use the shower. The rafting revenue should bare the costs of running the centre and the WCA should review their SERIOUS double standards over paid access.

Why don't the BCU properly resource education of the paddling community and instill ethics rather than just rules.

A major benefit to resolving conflict (but not all) between paddlers and fishermen, paddlers and farmers, paddlers and local residents poor understanding of the other sides point of view and needs: Paddlers parking shuttles in field gateways, driving like loons, dropping litter, stupid seal launches are all tolerated by other paddlers, WHY?

An understanding of riparian ecology is virtually non-existent in the paddling community, what a yawning gap that is compared to the average fisherman. No wonder they don't see us a true champions for the environment like we claim to be.

I'm going to dry my kit

Milly Tant

[/b]

[Guest]

My point was that we should respect access agreements where they exist and do all we can to foster good relations with other water users at those locations.

Where access is constantly being denied, then screw them!

But locations like the greta, the glaslyn, the tees where there are reasonable agreements should be upheld!

[Chas C]

Always a difficult subject and it has many sides to it.

You could take the view to paddle anything at any time and tell everyone.

You could take the view to paddle anything at any time and not to publicise.

You could take the view to only paddle where we have an agreement and then stick to it rigidly.

I think we all sit somewhere between these three or so positions.

As a coach I take an approach that will not directly jeopardise access to water, so that I can continue to teach (for free).

But as a recreational paddler I also object, as others hear do, to the access situation and do choose to paddle when and where I like. But I won't shout about paddling on a river with an agreement that I may have broken.

The RAO's do a great job as volunteer's - they have got us where we are today and I would not personally want to make their roll even harder but I do want improved access.

This may well be a catch 22 but we are all free to decide what route we want to take in support of the end goal (some may well be more radical than others).

Chas

[Guest]

Come on Chas, that it really sitting on the fence.

The sort of indecisiveness you demonstrate in your last post is not pushing access on at all are bringing the issue to a head. We will both grow older and live a double life (I) world of coaching (towing some piss poor party line) and then (ii) wanting to excerise what would be our very normal right (if we lived in mainland Europe or Scotland) to paddle and I add responsibly.

I have slept on my initial post, have had a nice crumpet and a couple of brews and I am more convinced that more radical action is needed. Radical does not mean irresponsible, but it means cutting to the chase and getting something done.

I firmly believe that if RAO's were to resign on mass the BCU will have to take some action and will not be able to sit on the fence.

Just take a look around, what is the average age of a combat RAMBLER? Generally 40+, not the typical revolutionary age bracket. How radical where the ramblers in recent years? I would say very radical and persistent and look at the result, the CROW Act. Paddlers need to jump on the back of that and take some action!

Would you not agree? Or would you like to sit on the fence some more?


Milly Tant

[Jerry Murland]

My,selfish, attitude to river access has, and always will be, get on if its up and running and to hell with the access agreement. I have been waiting too long for access to the rivers I want to paddle and I'm sure in my active paddling lifetime there will be no access agreements to allow me to enjoy my chosen sport to the full. In the last 6-7 years of paddling where and whenever, I have been challenged only twice. Once by a deranged old crone on the Corris Dulas and once by a tweed infested fisherperson with a very posh accent on the Lune. He later tried to run us down in his Rangerover machine, presumably he hadn't caught anything and was in a bad mood! On other occasions on rivers such as the Senoint for example. we have been greeted cordially and have behaved politely in return.
This is such a great sport and has given me so much over the years that I refuse to compromise over petty access restrictions that have their origins in medieval law. Anyway I'm too bl**dy old to do as I'm told!

[glynsmith]

I notice that most of those shouting to rid the world of access agreements are the ones who 'forgot' to log in.
If we're to raise the profile of access (or the lack of it) and canoeing in general, perhaps standing up for our conviction and being named might help.
I agree pretty much with Simon. There does need to be some restrictions, in the same way that ramblers cannot walk everywhere and anglers cannot fish everywhere, but the current situation in daft.
RAO's are in a very difficult situation. The BCU doesn't appear to help. Where is the on-line river access database? Who can you phone to check the access situations (and water levels) on a Friday night before deciding to head off? RAOs are not always available (I imaging that they have lives as well...). On numerous occasions the phone has been unanswered and e-mails have gone off into the aether and we, according to our governing body, are supposed to sit at home or paddle a canal (assuming that you've paid your BCU membership for a waterways licence).
Perhaps, one day, the BCU will get it sorted, but I doubt it.

[Mark R]

I personally broke one of the access agreements mentioned above this week. Actually, it was out of ignorance rather than intent...if I'd bothered to look it up beforehand, I would have found out about it easily enough (it's mentioned in the guidebook we had to hand)...not that it would have changed our plans I suspect.

We only realised this afterwards, when my wife received a sanctimonious lecture (from another paddler, no less) at the takeout - great, that really took the wind out of her sails after a great day for her on the water. To be fair to the fellow, that was his perogative...although the large male paddler who got off the river before us oddly did not get a lecture and nothing was said to me either, when I passed by. Anyway, one thing he said to her did stick in my head...

"What would we do, if we lost the Access Agreement?"


Hmm.

Surely, nothing different at all????

[Steve B]

The only place I can ever recall getting a "sanctimonious lecture from another paddler" was on the Conwy a few years ago. No doubt the fact that you've just come back from the same area is just a coincidence.

Instead of standing up for our rights (we don't have any of course), we all just blamed someone else for not organising the access.

[Mark R]

No doubt the fact that you've just come back from the same area is just a coincidence.

No, this was the River Greta in Keswick.

[steveparry]

Have paddled Serpent's to the mill and on to Town four or five times this season in varying water levels, never any trouble. In fact many people have stopped to watch from the Chainbridge and in LLangollen village. This is my local river and it is great to have it available. I am a conservative character who would normally back off from any dispute and not paddle, but this makes me wonder if the nasty people are as common as we are lead to believe. Maybe this is naieve (spelling?).

[Guest]

I notice that most of those shouting to rid the world of access agreements are the ones who 'forgot' to log in.
If we're to raise the profile of access (or the lack of it) and canoeing in general, perhaps standing up for our conviction and being named might help.

AND

I agree pretty much with Simon. There does need to be some restrictions, in the same way that ramblers cannot walk everywhere and anglers cannot fish everywhere, but the current situation in daft.

Hi Glyn,

I have stated in previous posts that I have had logging in problems due to a conflicting email address (I have contacted Mark, in an attempt to solve the problem...)

I have nothing to HIDE and will log in properly when I am able to, by the way you do not appear to disagree, with the statement that access agreements are piss poor, so what exactly is your beef?.

Yes you are right that the CROW act is not open season for ramblers to roam everywhere, but VERY substantial restrictions have been lifted from areas that are popular with ramblers, although access can be restricted on grounds of health and safety (fire risk, shoot days) and also to protect biodiversity (sensitive times for ground nesting birds).

Importantly there has also been consultation with landowners and the local community and statutory bodies responsible for biodiversity. So how does this compare with river access. Well the CROW act started from a premise of open access unless there was GOOD reason to refuse it on the above grounds. River access agreements start with no such premise, and therefore we have CRAP ACCESS in England and Wales.

I am for RESPONSIBLE access, which requires paddlers to behave better, but have at least have ACCESS to rivers.


cheers

Milly Tant

(Ben)

[glynsmith]

Ben,
(or Milly...)

My beef is with the stupid lack of access to paddling in this country.
I agree with most of the comments listed here by obviously fed up paddlers who just want to go and paddle.
There just seemed to be too many 'guests' (and not just on this thread or UKRGB) slagging off the current system without ever putting their hands up and saying 'look at me, I'm fed up with this'.
If everyone is happy to hide behind the web's anonymity, we don't stand a chance.

[Dan (unhappy)]

Tried to paddle the Kent today :-( Not very successful, were forced to get off by angry fishermen before the first rapid.

I've been paddling on the Kent for years and have never experienced problems with fishermen in the past.

Why can't they just let me paddle??? All I want to do is enjoy myself!!!

[Simon Westgarth]

I respect the RAO's good work, and yet I feel its just better to go and paddle outside the fishing season when there is sufficicent water & Not to damage the swarming grounds. At the end of the day fishing on most rivers amounts to someone's living.

Still the English situation is unique, I have been many places and there is nothing like it. Some one owns the land under the river, it sound like a joke, and in fact for the most part it is.

What to do, well it would appear that we are again coming to a critical mass of paddlers who are not happy with restrictive access agreements and will just go and paddle when there is water.

This leaves us in the difficult times as the BCU RAO & LAO's are seen as policing the paddlers, well this should STOP!

I do not feel we will lose anything but great days on the river.

So go when its high and the fishing season is closed.

The BCU's policy is work with all parties for access agreements for its members. Most paddlers aren't BCU members, and thus are not normally allowed to book access!! The unrepresented paddlers, i.e. the majority cant been held to an agreement, so the BCU RAO's should not try to hold them to it. However no one likes their good work undone, so the closed fishing season and with high water seems to be a reasonable conpremise, and that I feel will be the norm these days, and NOT access agreements, tricky times, but still good times

I had another great weekend, I love goos seasons

[Guest]

Glyn,

I think that you have ignored my problem, I cannot sign in or register a new user name, I am trying to get the problem resolved! in the mean time

We seem to agree, sensible/responsible access - ie boaters using informed common sense - Simon Westgarth's points - closed season and more importantly WATER LEVELS reflect this view.

If this is so please add to the solution, what should we do??? don't just add useless comments about registering, what is the point?

As a starter for ten...how about the EA making available spawning ground maps, if they exist? Paddlers would know where to avoid in low water, and also help police pollution.....


PS. Steve - Maths is your subject? not English? How did you get on today?

cheers

Ben

(Milly Tant)

[neilfarmer]

Tried to paddle the Kent today :-( Not very successful, were forced to get off by angry fishermen before the first rapid.

How did he get you off the river? Why not just ignore him and paddle by?

[DanH]

How did we get off? By tresspassing, although we were invited on to the private land to get off the river by the fishermen so I guess thats not strictly tresspass anymore ;-)

Why did we get off? We didn't really have any choice, the fisherman was fishing directly into the bottom of the drop and I personally didn't fancy dropping into a hole filled with fishing wire and a hook!!!!

None of them caught anything in the hour after we'd got off though so it obviously wasn't us disturbing the fish :-)

[morsey]

I have come face to face with fishermen on the top of the east lyn river (above watersmeet, the section you are not supposed to paddle!). The fisherman saw me & I could see that he was working a section below the next fall. I sat in the eddy for twenty minutes or so until he finished trying for that fish. When he pulled the line I bobbed down the fall and drifted passed (paddles out of the water). A nod from him and a nod returned by me. This was many years ago and that twenty minutes gave me a better understanding of how fishermen ply their craft (Not the floating variety!) When there is more than one fisherman working a section or when there are fishermen the whole way down a river then the waiting might be so long as to make a portage/walkout the better option. Something I have learnt is that fishermen dont like large groups, noise, splashing & faff! Fishermen do tend to like the same sections of river as we do so compromise is always going to be the game!


Outside the fishing season and when the levels are up seems a fair option for paddling! I sacked off a second river on Saturday because of low water level & staved off the desire to go chasing for water around the hills instead choosing to aid the local economy :-) When the EA release the river flow info real-time we will stand a much better chance of being able to keep off rivers that are too low and save unnecessary journeys into the hills.

I also just had a great weekend boating in South Wales & playing on the Exe.

Si :)

[RAO Cumbria]

Thanks for your comments folks... good to keep the debate rolling on :o)

In Cumbria we only have 6 access agreements. Surely it can't be that hard to find other rivers to paddle on during the fishing season and leave the rivers with an agreement to those paddlers who can wait until the agreed paddling season starts.

There is enough water in the region without an agreement, to demonstrate our displeasure at the current access situation, whilst also showing that we can work with others to use water in an agreed way if necessary.

I can only make the plea again, to think about the hard work that goes in to showing other river users that paddlers are a reasonable bunch of people, and stick to whatever small number of agreements there are.

[morsey nli]

Still after all we say you come and effectively accuse us of being irresponsible! And you then tell us to go paddle other rivers outside of BCU agreements!

Six agreements in Cumbria, ARE YOU BLIND TO THE SITUATION STARING YOU IN THE FACE! I've got more boats than you have got rivers to hold office over! In fact I have paddled on fifty percent more rivers than that in the last two weeks alone and the winter season has only just started.

THE BCU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO SORT OUT ACCESS IN ENGLAND AND WALES. They have failed miserably for years, are still harping the same argument and they do not have the staff to achieve the task. Their inactivity has caused derision between paddlers. I feel very much for the WWR & slalom paddlers who had to give up racing the Dee to support the cause for access.

Recreational paddlers stayed off rivers and made no protests to allow normal channels the opportunity to work.
Competitive paddlers have also made sacrifices to aid the goal of access.

ACCESS OFFICERS You are the people at the front edge trying to make the best of a very bad deal, is it still worth your effort? I say not. Now is the time to stand down and the issue will be forced. If I am to be governed by a law then surely the application of that law should be the same across the whole country. Negotiations were broken off in Llangollen then surely it should follow that all negotiations are null and void as the requirement for access is now a full and comprehensive one.

Thanks for your comments folks... good to keep the debate rolling on :o)

The debate will continue until we have effective access to rivers.

Simon

[Mark R]

Still after all we say you come and effectively accuse us of being irresponsible!

Mark D didn't say that - I thought his answer was rather well worded actually, reflecting the tough position RCOs are in, having to be the respectable face of a rather silly situation. He isn't allowed to say 'Access Agreements, what a load of bobbins', nor is he allowed to say, 'Go forth and paddle, it's what is really happening anyway'.

Take a walk in his shoes some time...

[Mark R]

ACCESS OFFICERS...Now is the time to stand down and the issue will be forced.

This gets my vote.

[Guest]

Oh at last we appear to be getting somewhere!

Right whose going to draft a letter to the RAO's, thanking them for all their hard work, but explaining why they should ALL resign to force the issue?

and who is the letter on behalf of? I reckon we would need some sort of petition to demonstrate the strength of feeling fed in from various sources?

What would be the BCU line? Would they try to dismiss this action or would they actually sit up and listen.....MMmmmm CRACK?


Milly Tant

[chicklechives]

You arrogant buggers. For the sake of your own selfishness and disregard for the hard work put in by other paddlers you jeapordise access for the rest of the year. For the one weekend in the year when you want to paddle the Greta (for example) outside the access months you then put at risk the many hundreds of paddler trips that take place completely hassle free. My most enjoyable trip last year was on the Greta (I can paddle harder before you dismiss me as a Gr3 floater), this was mainly due to the great relaxed atmosphere and large number of disperate groups paddling in a relaxed manner, secure in the knowledge that they were quite welcome to be there.
Perhaps you'd like to take a selfish trip down the Tyne just before the access begins and mess up the Tyne Tour, afterall YOU'd enjoy it so screw the rest of us.
Perhaps Milly Tant should think on about the wider implications of his arrogant actions. While it's not perfect we do actually have quite a lot to lose.

[Simon Westgarth]

Currently the BCU's policy is to enter talks for access agreements. If the land owener or those with fishing rights say no or give a long list of restrictions, then the situation or agreements can be quite unfair. The BCU policy is to work with government to change the law, and to avoid confrontation, as a large part of their budget is from central funding, therefore it is unlikely in any case that the BCU or its representitives will stand down, until there is a policy change!!!!!!!!

Change is what we all want and of cause there are many who are happy to keep their cap in hand and carry on with the BCU policy, and those whom are happy to point the finger at so called selfish paddlers not toeing the line. Well the line looks quite shit from where I am looking, and I have not know of ANY situation where access has been lost because paddlers enjoying good runoff outside the access agreement.

The dynamic of paddling is changing and the current BCU access policy is increasingly outdated, so where to go from here, go paddle when the water is high and the river is closed for fishing, its a simple forumla that would stand up to any reasonable point of view. Then again its an unreasonable point of law we find ourselves in, more rain inbound, must go........