VHF Radio, No DSC, No Point?^

[steve-m]

I have just been on a VHF radio course with Stormforce Coaching in Southampton. To some extent I wonder if I need to have bothered, if the course was correct then the future of VHF Marine radio is Digital Selective Calling (DSC). The present position is that there are no hand held DSC radios on the market, there were some but these have been withdrawn from production. From the course I attended the situation with DSC would seem to be;

* I am new to all this but in case anyone is wondering DSC is a digital call up system that removes the need to constantly monitor channel 16. From our practice sessions on the course it seems great when you have got it but I suspect the technology is tricky to squeeze into a handheld package and meet all the protocols. DSC sets are geared to give out a vessels position and can be linked to a GPS system for this purpose, not really something you can do in a sea kayak!

* Many European coastguards have given up routine listening on channel 16. UK coastguards will still monitor channel 16 but will no longer maintain a dedicated ‘headphone’ watch, but just have channel 16 as a background loudspeaker monitor on a ‘catch as catch can’ basis. Given the pressure on UK public sector finances one wonders how long they will continue this limited monitoring?

* DSC VHF sets are rapidly becoming the norm for Commercial Shipping and Yachting. Hand held VHF sets are seen as an auxiliary to the main DSC set, i.e. you call up on the DSC and then continue the conversation on the hand held while you are on deck doing the sails etc. Or you use DSC to call Mayday and then continue with your mayday communications from the handheld while you are in the liferaft.

* Many boats, both commercial and leisure, are no longer routinely keeping a monitoring watch on channel 16. Yachts are relying on a DSC call for radio alert, whilst in busy shipping lanes commercial shipping is often constantly on channel 13 for bridge to bridge navigation safety. So that unless you can put out a DSC radio alert you may as well not have a radio set.

* If you put out a mayday on channel 16 you will only be heard by anyone still keeping an open monitor on that channel, increasingly fewer people as I understand it. So that a vessel close by relying on DSC alert will be unaware that you have a Mayday unless and until the coastguard picks up your call and puts out an all ships DSC alert.

So, as a sea kayaker, unless or until they bring out an acceptable hand held DSC VHF radio is there any point in even considering VHF radio?

Does anyone know if there are likely to be any hand held DSC VHF sets coming on to the market?

Regards Steve

[Jon Wood]

I also sat through nine hours of tedium on Saturday to get my VHF/DSC /GMDSS qualification. According to my instructor, there were objections by certain countries' licencing authorities to hand held DSC. Existing H/H DSC sets are still fine to use, along with buying one you find for sale. But no more are being produced.

The one day RYA course I attended obviously had the verbal content, but was heavily outweighed by learning the menu system of the particular radio sets we were using.

Can anyone else explain the resistance at authority level to hand held DSC, or was I misinformed?

[runswick2000]

I have just been on a VHF radio course with Stormforce Coaching in Southampton. To some extent I wonder if I need to have bothered, if the course was correct then the future of VHF Marine radio is Digital Selective Calling (DSC).

* If you put out a mayday on channel 16 you will only be heard by anyone still keeping an open monitor on that channel, increasingly fewer people as I understand it. So that a vessel close by relying on DSC alert will be unaware that you have a Mayday unless and until the coastguard picks up your call and puts out an all ships DSC alert.

Regards Steve

Don't know much about Hand held dsc I'm afraid. However, I do know that your assumption that no one is listening to channel 16 is flawed.

Firstly, I use VHF a lot, I have never, never made a call on 16 and it not be responded to by someone (except when obviously out of range). If my memory serves me well that someone has without exception always been the Coastguard.

Secondly, think about it like this.....For DSC VHF to work the set has to be turned on. If it is on it must be on some channel. It only makes sense for that channel to be 16 as that is the only channel on which there is any realistic chance of much traffic. People never did sit by their sets and listen intently, they merely kept an ear open for it. People will still do this. Therefor, the reality is that very little has changed, most VHF users are still listening to 16 and the coastguard still repond.....no problem!

So, be glad you went on the course. You clearly have a great understanding of the system and the benefits it can bring. For goodness sake don't leave your VHF at home!

[Mark McK]

Many boats, both commercial and leisure, are no longer routinely keeping a monitoring watch on channel 16. Yachts are relying on a DSC call for radio alert, whilst in busy shipping lanes commercial shipping is often constantly on channel 13 for bridge to bridge navigation safety. So that unless you can put out a DSC radio alert you may as well not have a radio set.

Most new sets can monitor 2 or 3 channels at once, no just one. So even if ships are mainly transmitting on 13 it doesn't mean that won't also be monitoring 16.

Like the post above, I've never known a VHF call to go unanswered except when we've been out of range or on the wrong side of an island.

[MikeB]

Hi STeve - welcome - The Uniden Mystic is a DSC Handheld - if you have a look in the Almanac you'll find a link to the discussion in which it's mentioned, as well as various other VHF / DSC Discussions.

Mike.

[capsized8]

As far as VHF and channel 16 are concerned. The CG and others are no longer obliged to have a "headphone" watch, it is now a "speaker" watch. They are still listening.

I have not been informed of any issues regarding VHF/DSC. I would have thought that Ofcom would have been in touch with registered users if there were problems.

The set I have is a Uniden Mystic combined VHF/DSC/GPS a truly great bit of kit.

[Peter M]

Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong. I,ve not been on the course, but having recently bought my first VHF. I have been swatting up with the RYA pamphlet and any other written material I can lay my hands on. As I understand the situation, commercial ships are no longer obliged to monitor Ch 16. However with the exception of direct station to station MMSI calls (are they the right initials), channel 16 will still be used for initial contact before changing to the working channel, and consequently monitored.

[Jim]

Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong. I,ve not been on the course, but having recently bought my first VHF. I have been swatting up with the RYA pamphlet and any other written material I can lay my hands on. As I understand the situation, commercial ships are no longer obliged to monitor Ch 16. However with the exception of direct station to station MMSI calls (are they the right initials), channel 16 will still be used for initial contact before changing to the working channel, and consequently monitored.

If nothing else channel 16 will remain as the calling channel - ships need to talk to each other, and or to yachts from time to time to find out where they are going, if they are going to cross courses etc. Visiting boats may not know the dedicated channel for a harbour they haven't visited. All this sot of stuff (initial contact to find out which channel to use) will I'm sure continue to be done on channel 16, so most if not all vessels will have it on loudspeaker (maybe turned down quiet) most of the time even though it is no longer a statutory requirement to monitor it 24/7.

Who knows exactly how the future will pan out, but I'm sure the coastguard are happy that more and more small boats are carrying handhelds and I would think they are more likely to monitor 16 and encourage this than stop completely and make the system obselete just as it seems to be taking off with those of us who are otherwise completely invisible, but probably responsible for the majority of lifebout shouts.... (small boats in general, not kayaks)

JIM

[runswick2000]

just as it seems to be taking off with those of us who are otherwise completely invisible, but probably responsible for the majority of lifebout shouts.... (small boats in general, not kayaks)

JIM

JIM,

Look at the rescues section of our website and look at the archive/stats. Last year we did approaching 60 shouts and only 5 were to dinghies or small craft (less that 10%) and in fact all of these were WAFIs! We're safer than you think.....

http://www.swanagelifeboat.org.uk/

[Jim]

just as it seems to be taking off with those of us who are otherwise completely invisible, but probably responsible for the majority of lifebout shouts.... (small boats in general, not kayaks)

JIM

JIM,

Look at the rescues section of our website and look at the archive/stats. Last year we did approaching 60 shouts and only 5 were to dinghies or small craft (less that 10%) and in fact all of these were WAFIs! We're safer than you think.....

http://www.swanagelifeboat.org.uk/

Well that's good news!

JIM

[maryinoxford]

Last year we did approaching 60 shouts and only 5 were to dinghies or small craft (less that 10%) and in fact all of these were WAFIs! We're safer than you think.....

http://www.swanagelifeboat.org.uk/

Please tell me, what's a WAFI?
Mary (landlocked)

[capsized8]

Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong. I,ve not been on the course, but having recently bought my first VHF. I have been swatting up with the RYA pamphlet and any other written material I can lay my hands on. As I understand the situation, commercial ships are no longer obliged to monitor Ch 16. However with the exception of direct station to station MMSI calls (are they the right initials), channel 16 will still be used for initial contact before changing to the working channel, and consequently monitored.

Here goes! In the estuary/marina of the floating gin palaces, yachty types and busy shipping lanes channel 16 as a calling channel is needless to say hard to use especially if you are in deep doodoo. The introduction of DSC/MMSI is intended to address this problem. If you know the MMSI number of the craft/portable set you can call direct after first of all scanning for an open channel. You will already have the CG MMSI No on your handset (I hope).When the MMSI number is contacted the recieving set is directed to the channel that you the caller selected. This happens in reverse if it is a MAYDAY - your system is directed to channel by the CG (providing you have a DSC set). In all your calls with a DSC set (providing it is connected to a GPS) it can send your position. If you are not connected to a GPS you have to enter your position manually, similar to a text message on a mobile.

Channel 16 is still a calling channel for those that need it (basically small craft) a speaker watch is now conducted by the CG and others. In an emergency with DSC being able to give your position and if you have entered it, the nature of your distress. The DSC set continues to send this information in 4minute intervals until a response is made, all DSC sets in range will know your position and if required can be directed there by the CG. The DSC set will go to the channel selected by the CG. This again takes pressure off channel 16. Leaving it clear for those who do not have DSC to have thier own emergency - in public ;o)

I,m sure some kind soul will correct me if I have made a mistake.

[capsized8]

I also sat through nine hours of tedium on Saturday to get my VHF/DSC /GMDSS qualification. According to my instructor, there were objections by certain countries' licencing authorities to hand held DSC. Existing H/H DSC sets are still fine to use, along with buying one you find for sale. But no more are being produced.

The one day RYA course I attended obviously had the verbal content, but was heavily outweighed by learning the menu system of the particular radio sets we were using.

Can anyone else explain the resistance at authority level to hand held DSC, or was I misinformed?

The only downside to handeld DSC sets are children or carelessnes! If you live in B/HAM im sure you do not want a big parafin drinking yellow budgie landing on your roof. Just because the children are playing at being Fireman Sam. The authourities have to respond to all emergency calls. As for the Marine Rescue Sevices they will be directed to within 3mtr of your last transmitted position, I think you were misled.

[runswick2000]

Please tell me, what's a WAFI?
Mary (landlocked)

WAFI, This is a technical term in common useage by the maritime rescue services:

Wind Assisted Flippin' Idiot.......i.e. sailor

;-)

[capsized8]

Please tell me, what's a WAFI?
Mary (landlocked)

WAFI, This is a technical term in common useage by the maritime rescue services:

Wind Assisted Flippin' Idiot.......i.e. sailor

;-)

Wind Assisted Flippin' Idiot

Bet it's not!!!!! ;o)

[runswick2000]

Wind Assisted Flippin' Idiot

Bet it's not!!!!! ;o)

As an accronym it has a close cousin you know. This can be applied to all people in close proximity to the water:

WAFU = Wet and Flippin Useless

[steve-m]

[quote="runswick2000

Don't know much about Hand held dsc I'm afraid. However, I do know that your assumption that no one is listening to channel 16 is flawed.

The message I took away from my course is that what you saymay have been correct in the past, but it will be increasingly unlikely in the future. Most craft with fixed radios are moving on to DSC. The UK coastguard is one of the few coastguard services still with any sort of watch on channel 16, how long will that continue? Will anyone be keeping channel 16 on open station in a years time?


Secondly, think about it like this.....For DSC VHF to work the set has to be turned on. If it is on it must be on some channel.

DSC transmissions are on channel 70 which can only transmit digital signals. It may well depend on the set but from my course I got the impression that a boat could set its DSC radio to channel 70 DSC response only, in which case the only signal you could receive would be a DSC alert. People will only switch to 16 after getting a DSC alert signal.

For goodness sake don't leave your VHF at home![/quote]

I do not currently have a VHF radio and from what I heard on the course I will not be buying a non DSC hand held VHF. Within a year or so you might as well be talking into a paper bag as have a non DSC hand held VHF set, other than as a secondary to a main DSC set.
What we need is a good DSC equipped hand held VHF radio, but, as far as I am aware, there are none available at present.

Regards Steve

[wave skier]

It is not easy to set off the DSC alarm on a DSC set. It's quite straightforward to initiate but requires the alarm cover to be raised and the button to be pressed for 5 seconds until you hear 5 short beeps change to 1 long beep.If there is an accidental distress alert sent, allow the transmission to finish and then send on ch.16 an all stations RT broadcast stating DSC sent in error giving the craft's identity or call sign,position and MMSI No.
When a DSC all stations distress alert is made it will automatically set off all DSC receivers in range. It will as previously mentioned continue to send an alert every 4 minutes until a distress acknowledgement is received,the transmission is cancelled or the vessel sinks. The alarm brings the distress to boat owners who may be able to help but are unable to constantly monitor Ch 16.
Any station receiving the alert will listen to Ch 16 to monitor the voice message sent by the distressed vessel and if necessary provide assistance which will be normally coordinated by HMCG.
Unless your radio is linked to a gps, your position and nature of distress requires to be included in your voice transmission on Ch.16.
For sending a mayday call the acronym MIRPDANIO can be used.
M Mayday X 3
I This is Identity X 3
R Repeat Mayday this is Identity
P My Position (Lat then Long or Range and Bearing from a known mark)
D Nature of Distress (sinking, in water, heart attack etc)
A Type of Assistance Required (Immediate, Medical etc)
N Number of people aboard or in group.
I Any other Information (Description of boat,firing flares etc)
O Over
The format could be adapted if you were using a mobile phone but remember your vhf signal can be DF'd by lifeboats and SAR Helicopters.
Hope this helps,
Harry.

[wave skier]

It is not easy to set off the DSC alarm on a DSC set. It's quite straightforward to initiate but requires the alarm cover to be raised and the button to be pressed for 5 seconds until you hear 5 short beeps change to 1 long beep.If there is an accidental distress alert sent, allow the transmission to finish and then send on ch.16 an all stations RT broadcast stating DSC sent in error giving the craft's identity or call sign,position and MMSI No.
When a DSC all stations distress alert is made it will automatically set off all DSC receivers in range. It will as previously mentioned continue to send an alert every 4 minutes until a distress acknowledgement is received,the transmission is cancelled or the vessel sinks. The alarm brings the distress to boat owners who may be able to help but are unable to constantly monitor Ch 16.
Any station receiving the alert will listen to Ch 16 to monitor the voice message sent by the distressed vessel and if necessary provide assistance which will be normally coordinated by HMCG.
Unless your radio is linked to a gps, your position and nature of distress requires to be included in your voice transmission on Ch.16.
For sending a mayday call the acronym MIRPDANIO can be used.
M Mayday X 3
I This is Identity X 3
R Repeat Mayday this is Identity
P My Position (Lat then Long or Range and Bearing from a known mark)
D Nature of Distress (sinking, in water, heart attack etc)
A Type of Assistance Required (Immediate, Medical etc)
N Number of people aboard or in group.
I Any other Information (Description of boat,firing flares etc)
O Over
The format could be adapted if you were using a mobile phone but remember your vhf signal can be DF'd by lifeboats and SAR Helicopters.
Hope this helps,
Harry.

[Mike Marshall]

THats twice you've said that!!!
MIkeM

[wave skier]

Please accept my apology.

Harry.

[steve-m]

The set I have is a Uniden Mystic combined VHF/DSC/GPS a truly great bit of kit.

As far as I can see this is the only hand held DSC VHF set available anywhere and it is not on sale in the UK or Europe.

As far as I can see it is only available in the USA. The UK radio authorities will licence a handheld DSC set if you can get one and issue you with a DSC MMSI number. In theory as VHF is international a set sold in the USA should work in the UK, can anyone think of any reason why it would not? You would presumably need to adapt the battery charger to UK mains but otherwise any problems?
Is anyone else interested in trying to get hold of a Uniden Mystic DSC set from the USA.
Regards Steve

[Dave Thomas]

In theory as VHF is international a set sold in the USA should work in the UK, can anyone think of any reason why it would not?

It would need UK channel frequencies to be preset (many, but by no means all, are the same as UK/international channels, but some standard UK channels are only available at 'low power in the US list -at least on my Icom - notably 67 which is a standard coastguard working channel) - but 'Capsized8' uses one, so presumably that is OK?

So if getting one makes you happy, I guess everyone is happy. I have no problems so far with using a standard non-DSC set and am quite happy to wait until there is more choice of hand-held DSC/less reliability of being heard on 16 before changing. I guess many others here feel the same.

A couple of other points: DSC may give you a better chance of a distress signal being picked up by surrounding shipping, but it won't do anything to help you talk to the fishing boat you can see on the horizon and ask for a weather update or a message relay to the coastguard (unless, that is, you happen to know his MMSI). And secondly, someone mentioned many large ships maintaining a listening watch on 13 ('bridge-to-bridge') rather than 16. I can set my VHF to dual/tri scan on 16 plus another channel/two channels, and can pre-set calling channels. So I can very simply use either 13 or 16 if in a congested big-ship area where that is appropriate.

Dave Thomas

[ChrisS]

Is anyone else interested in trying to get hold of a Uniden Mystic DSC set from the USA

Try here.

http://store.marine-radio-store.com/myvhfgpsmama.html
It can be switched between US, Canadian and International channels. I think DSC radios can broadcast and receive in exactly the same way as other radios if you are not using the DSC facility e.g. having pressed the red button you follow it up by broadcasting a "normal" Mayday call on Channel 16.

[capsized8]

The set I have is a Uniden Mystic combined VHF/DSC/GPS a truly great bit of kit.

As far as I can see this is the only hand held DSC VHF set available anywhere and it is not on sale in the UK or Europe.

As far as I can see it is only available in the USA. The UK radio authorities will licence a handheld DSC set if you can get one and issue you with a DSC MMSI number. In theory as VHF is international a set sold in the USA should work in the UK, can anyone think of any reason why it would not? You would presumably need to adapt the battery charger to UK mains but otherwise any problems?

Regards Steve

The Uniden Mystic VHF/DSC/GPS is the only handset of this type in the world, beats me why though.
Regarding battery charging - no problem at all, it is a standard unit and you have probably already got one in amongst all the gizmo's that are supplied with transformers these days. As for use NO alterations need to be carried out. A mention has been made towards the channels in use by the CG, what is the problem, it is they that request YOU to go to a specific channel when you call them.
This unit has a triple scan facility. it defaults to !w for general use (this can be bypassed) and automatically goes up to 5W when you transmit in an emergency. I have had mine about 2 years with no problems. I have never had it in a waterproof case and it has had much time submersed. As with all your kit it does need a wash in fresh water after use.
I have 2 lanyards fastened to it (short and long) and it is ALWAYS clipped to me not the boat.

[CaileanMac]

Within a year or so you might as well be talking into a paper bag as have a non DSC hand held VHF set, other than as a secondary to a main DSC set.

Steve-M,

Whilst respecting your desire to invest in handheld DSC radio now your quote above is not entirely correct in my opinion. It's a requirement for merchant shipping (over a certain tonnage) to be fitted out with DSC radio but there's no legal requirement on leisure users and small craft to fit themselves out with DSC.

So reality says that the occasional powerboat user, sea kayaker, yachtsman and fishermen aren't going to spending a few hundred quid to upgrade to DSC in any great hurry. Who's most likely to pick up my distress call off the West Coast of Scotland / Hebrides (where I do most of my paddling) - small leisure craft or local fishermen. Whilst respecting your quote will become truth at some point in the future, it's unlikely to happen for a good number of years.

An similar thing is happening within the world of EPIRB's (Emergency Positioning Indicating Radio Beacon) and which mhz they broadcast their emergency signal to the COSPAS / SARSAT satellite systems, which has made me reach this viewpoint also. They are switching off 121mhz that system as a primary EPIRB mhz and bring in 406mhz as the new system. We are in the cross over period and if memory serves me right the 121mhz signals will be still dealt with as emergencies until 2009 within the COSPAS / SARSAT system. 121mhz will still be used as a 'direction finding / homing' fequency. So if that's what applies to EPIRB's I can't see it being much different for VHF radio's, especially given there isn't any handheld DSC VHF units available apart from one already mentioned by Pete (Capsized8). More info here on EPIRB's.

CaileanMac

[Jim]

A couple of years ago my dad did his VHF course and came away wondering if it was worth getting a non-DSC handheld - he wasn't keen on investing in a bit of kit that was going to become obselete soon. Subsequently he realised that channel 16 will continue to be used for general call up and emergency traffic for the foreseeable future and has invested in a set (I think, or maybe he borrowed one).

In my experience travelling with VHF equipped kayakers in remote areas of Scotland, there is not much traffic on 16 but it is still used and listened to and if someone squawks, they always seem to get an answer. Last years Easter trip (reported on here, I think there is an almanac link) saw some of my group and some of a neighbouring kayak group get involved in a search and rescue for a third kayak group (the mayday was actually called in by phone) through monitoring traffic on Ch16. The local ferry also responded, presumably to the Ch 16 call from the coastguard.

At the end of the day, even if the shipping is not monitoring Ch16 other kayakers will be and there will probably be other small boats monitoring it so it's not a waste of time.

JIM

[Goldspoon]

This is a slight aside... apologies but worth saying I think. I've only ever used my VHF in anger (Mayday) the once - and a word of warning... in all the "excitement" I somehow pressed the lock button whilst speaking. The Coastguard heard everything we said between our group, during the 20 minutes it took to reach us, whilst they could not speak to us (some colourful language I later heard). Know your equipment 100%. I did not even know it was possible to lock "press to talk".

The incident was the rescue of a diver found floating semi conscious and slightly blue.

[andreadawn]

Thanks for the link about EPIRBs Cailean. This is a bit worrying. I've been carrying one of these things around for years. I've read elsewhere about the majority of incidents being false alerts. Anybody know much about the situation in the UK with regard to responding to EPIRB alerts or have any experience of actually using one in anger? I'm not keen on being mistaken for a pizza oven!

'How about 121.5 MHz EPIRBs?

Don't waste your money on these EPIRBs. Although you may be able to buy one for less than ¼ the price of a 406 MHz EPIRB, these EPIRBs are a left-over from an earlier system that relied on alerting via overflying aircraft. It was only with the advent of satellite detection that they started to become effective. However, in most parts of the world, SAR forces will not respond immediately to 121.5 MHz 'hits', as the vast majority are false alerts. These are caused by noise sources such as banking machines, pizza ovens etc., or by accidentally activated aircraft beacons. As the 121.5 MHz signal contains no identification, the source can only be traced by launching a helicopter or other SAR resource to track it down. In the USA, these false alerts sometimes run to over 500 a day, so you can see why they don't immediately leap into action when another one arrives! The situation has become so bad that from 2009, satellite processing of 121 MHz alerts will be switched off.'

Andrea

[Douglas Wilcox]

Hello Andrea, get a 406 upgrade. I went for the ACR Aquafix 406 GPS as it has a flexible stainless steel aerial wrapped round its body which can be extended to improve its transmission if you are ever in the drink.
Douglas