Does sea kayaking need an image change?^

[Jim]

...obviously I can't go into details concerning prices and set-ups of different companies,

Sorry, I didn't mean to compromise your professional integrity with the way I asked the question!

MarkR has an import boat and is very happy with it, in fact I'd say he raved about it! So the question is more to him - I know he tried the boat and obviously it suited him, but what sort of level of optional extras are available?

Like I say I haven't seen a knoydart catalogue for a while, actually no I did get one through the door but misplaced it (have you seen my flat?) but I'm pretty certain that if ordered a Valley boat and I requested some extra recessed deck fittings up forward (for my camera bag), a couple of extras on the back (so I can store my paddles the opposite way to standard), the day hatch not to be cut out and no bulkhead behind the seat (it's a good place for outsized stuff like cameras and pans although these new fangled oval hatches will take them), perhaps no skeg but a C-trim rudder instead (now I'm being silly, I'd never order a rudder!), I'm pretty sure that not only is this "not a problem" but that there is a pricelist avaliable so I can pick and choose such options....
Oh yes, so it will be 3 months before this boat would actually get to the top of the queue to be built - I'll need longer than that to raise the funds!

Is this level of customisation available with cheap imports?

I have absolutely no doubt that the build quality is as good or in excess of what British builders manage (well from an engineering definition high quality leads to low prices) but I suspect that there is still a part of the sea kayak market that is looking more for the personal touch and the features exactly as the csutomer wants rather than a cheap boat they can paddle away now?

I suppose this niche market of hand built, almost all unique, boats that some of us love to cling on to is part of the "image" that Tim thinks might need reconsidering - perhaps it is only the seagull munching masochists that actually want anything other than a stock boat with a modular fitting kit and multi position footrests?

What do other people think, do you look at the list of options and/or is there anything you would have specified differently on your current boat if you had had the choice, or had known when you bought it what you know now?

JIM

[MikeB]

1: P&H quality - we're thinking of buying some for the club. Is that a wise chice?

2: The UK industry will be fine as long as a certain DW still paddles - - - his personal purchases must support dozens of British workers!

Mike

[CaileanMac]

MikeB,

As to P+H quality - haven't seen anything for a wee while which gives me cause for concern but do consider all options (plastic?) before making a decision (Wilderness System, Valley, Point 65 & Dagger). Douglas's plastic boat review ought to be a good starting point.

By getting rid of the 'custom' boat and the associated image, this simply paves the way for manufacturers to churn out boats which are identical i.e. saving time and money and maxmising profit margins..... cynical viewpoint but look at it from a large business point of view.....kind of makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

So why change the image if we the consumer are going to have to put up with whatever the big boy manufacturer's produce i.e. set piece designs with set piece spec's and colours. Remember the vast bulk of sea kayaks made in this country aren't sold here but are shipped abroad, mainly to the States. So the N. America market and other foreign markets will shape and determine to a certain extent what UK manufacturers produce in the immediate future. An example is North Shore Sea Kayaks who don't really sell any of their boats in the UK these days as they export aboard to many far flung corners of the globe. Let's hope the manufacturers who produce custom sea kayaks and who do business in a face to face manner with customers, flourish and keep the big boys and their marketing campaigns in check.

In a cynical and brutal mood tonight......

CaileanMac

[Rob G]

Cailean - beards, or lack of - -

Any comments from "across the pond" to add to this?

Mike.

Ok...I'll bite. "Brit boats" still have a little "association" with them by many here, however unfortunately my added quotations have included with the issue. Mrs. G and I have a couple NDK's and a Valley as our hardshells. Nice lot, to say the very least. Robyn (sic?) spent a good deal of time customizing a couple of things about the outfitting of the Nordkapp to make it right for me. Nigel and his coaches spent a bit of time customizing us to be actual paddlers, in whatever craft we brought to the venue. These are things to be remembered. I may be an innate American, however, I know who my friends are. An "offshore" boat might be priced and even constructed, and maybe even possibly outfitted properly, but will it be as "friendly?" I'm pre-disposed towards friends.

It is still a misnomer among many American paddlers that a "Brit" boat is associated with the BCU. Read our forums and after awhile the conclusion is hard to separate with the opinions. Unfortunate. However, six NA manufacturers have brought outfairly extensive "Brit Boat" styled product lines, Including, Seaward (Foster); Current Designs (Hutchinson & Foster); Necky; Impex (Northshore?); Dagger and Wilderness Systems. Is a thaw coming? Of course, performance is performance, however, ignorance persists. (And yes, I have firmly in mind that a racer's boat is different than a rock gardener's boat.)

Sea Kayaking is the ultimate repose for me. I am specific about what with and where I do it, but in the end I just want to do it well. Otherwise, my nose gets soggy. I like what Andrea Dawn said, that it needs no justification. I do believe, however, that a little is needed to keep the good minds out there churning out good stuff for us to consider.

Cheers,

Rob G

PS: Why seagulls when puffins are so much tastier?

PSS: If I grew a beard I'd look like a cross between Dylan and Foo Man Chu, so none o' that!

[James F]

It's the job of marketing to make us want to upgrade our boat more often than every 10-20 years and sea kayak manufacturers and retailers are beginnning to realise this........

CaileanMac

It's the job of the manufacturers to improve their product and the job of marketers to make us notice.

[Tim S]

....I think this topic has run out of gas a little now and though it is branching into some interesting areas, a lot of the information, thoughts and opinions are being repeated ( hard to keep track when a thread gets this long ).

So I leave you with this..... at time of writing this thread has 65 'messages' with 1429 'reads'....whilst this original UKSKGB Merchandising thread ( which prompted me to start the topic ) has 12 'messages' and 418 'reads'.

Marketing is everything.....

Tim S

[MikeB]

Thank you Tim for proving that all you actually wanted to do was have a dig ;-) does that validate the decision to remove your original thread? It's been a fun discussion! I'll Almanac it.

(But Tim - to compare a T shirt to an industry. Worrying! )

Realistically though - Richard mentioned we had in excess of 10 orders as at Friday last, just after we posted details - (hardly going to challenge FCUK, but hey!) - anyway, that puts about £20 in RNLI's funds and markets UKSKGB so we're achieving the stated objectives!

Regs, Mike.

[Jim]

As regards comic sans MS, it is at least a very readable font, even if it does look a bit childish - I like simplicity!

JIM

[Tim S]

....don't misunderstand me, but be sure that this thread was intended to promote discussion ( kinda given that away by having a poll don't you think? )....in that I have been successful. There has been passionate debate, some misinformed, but all applicable to the topic heading.

Disagree, consider me to be a wreckless youth who has no place commenting on sea kayaking, get frustrated because I pose questions that promote disagreement amongst others....but don't consider it to be 'simply having a dig'.

And don't get me started on Comic Sans!! :-)

Tim S

p.s. this doesnt quite make sense now...it is in response to your post before you edited it...ooops!
p.p.s. please consider me a wreckless youth...they tried to enter me into the masters event at the British Snowboarding champs next week until I informed them that I am still under 30!

[MikeB]

....don't misunderstand me, but be sure that this thread was intended to promote discussion ( kinda given that away by having a poll don't you think? )....in that I have been successful. There has been passionate debate, some misinformed, but all applicable to the topic heading.

Disagree, consider me to be a wreckless youth who has no place commenting on sea kayaking, get frustrated because I pose questions that promote disagreement amongst others....but don't consider it to be 'simply having a dig'.

And don't get me started on Comic Sans!! :-)

Tim S

p.s. this doesnt quite make sense now...it is in response to your post before you edited it...ooops!

Well. edit it then! Posing questions to promote constructive debate is always good - I'd suggest your poll shows that sea-kayakers just want to go sea-kayaking tho.

Try and resist commenting on Comic Sans ;-), as Jim says, it works. Personally, I'm a fan of Gothc, or the Celtic fonts - but they don't work and can't be easily read!

You have, of course, placed an order to support UKSKGB and RNLI? IF you're an XL size, I'll even send you the prototype polo if you PM me your address.

Regs, Mike.

(Editing again - in fact, if anyone would like the prototype, teh first PM get's it - you make an RNLI donation)

[MikeB]

- in fact, if anyone would like the prototype, teh first PM get's it - you make an RNLI donation)

Gone - to Niall Duncanson.

[capsized8]

- in fact, if anyone would like the prototype, teh first PM get's it - you make an RNLI donation)

Gone - to Niall Duncanson.

Cor, that was quick - does nobody work on this site !! ;o)

[MikeB]

Hey, when Niall's pm came in, I was talking to a collegue about aranging a meeting, entering it on my work pc's calendar and checking my mail, and replying to Niall, all at the same time!

Multi-tasking - a doddle! (Mind you, that's why I have to edit my posts sometimes - - - )

Mike.

[Niall Duncanson]

I've been staring at the same AutoCAD drawing for a week now.
Things such as the 'image' of sea kayaking take on unreasonable importance at these times. :-)
Niall

[Fast Pat]

For some time now I have thought that a manufacturer / retailer could address both ends of the market – although not as low as £800! They could have the same design sold at two price points:

Option 1. Solid colour (choice of say 5), standard lay up, standard fittings – ie batch produced under licence in some low cost manufacturing base (aka. Some sweat shop somewhere.) £1,100.

Option 2. To the customers specification regarding colour, layup, fittings, bulkheads priced between £1500 - £2200 – ie built to order and manufactured in the UK.

Indeed on reflection (apart from the sweat shop bit!), option 1 could be what we see with Shoreham and Island currently doing.

There is no doubt that customising a boat to personal requirements costs a builder a lot of time and effort; that should be reflected in the price. For my 40th birthday I treated myself to a hand built cycle, other friends suggested that I could have got more for my money in terms of components by buying an off the peg bike (batch produced in aforementioned sweat shop), me I’d always wanted a made to measure machine and was prepared to pay the premium (although I’d like to say it was because I wanted to support British builders).

You pays your money and makes you choice.

[capsized8]

I've been staring at the same AutoCAD drawing for a week now.
Things such as the 'image' of sea kayaking take on unreasonable importance at these times. :-)
Niall

And dare I ask - What about your very recent activity on SUCC ?

Got to agree though 3/4 screen for cad, the rest of the screen a window onto the world.

Mike, if you are multi-tasking, is there something about your gender you are keeping secret???

[MikeB]

Mike, if you are multi-tasking, is there something about your gender you are keeping secret???

[gruff, masculine voice] I never said I did it well! [gruff, masculine voice]

[Niall Duncanson]

Taking quite a beating there amn't I!
That's what I get for offering to take WW paddlers on a sea trip. I should have known.
Niall
(multi-tasking on UKRGB, SUCC, and CAD without any feminine help)

[Erling]

You pays your money and makes you choice.

Exactly.
Is NS the only manufacturer to go this route? The way I understand it, they sold the original Shoreline mould to a Dutch company (Kajak Centrum Arend Bloem, www.arendbloem.nl) who set up production in Poland. The result is a kayak called "Eagle Shoreline", but this is a rather stripped-down version: No reinforced decks or seams, no recessed hatches or deck fittings etc. (I take it they had to alter the mould to not interfere with the products from NS.) Kajak Centrum AB clearly states on their web site that this is not an ocean kayak, but a kayak for calmer waters. Price is 995 € (680 UKP). They also stock the redesigned NS Shoreline; 2295 € (1570 UKP).

[MikeB]

From Kayak Centrum - "All major makes under one roof"!

Blooming 'eck! Is kayaking popular in NL then?

[capsized8]

From Kayak Centrum - "All major makes under one roof"!

Blooming 'eck! Is kayaking popular in NL then?

Excuse me, I don't mean to trouble you, but could I have a look at those 3 on the top shelf and do you have it in pink!

Can you gift wrap? :o)

[Owen]

CaileanMac writes
An example is North Shore Sea Kayaks who don't really sell any of their boats in the UK these days as they export aboard to many far flung corners of the globe

You can still buy North Shore boats in this country, SPS sell then or you can go direct to then. They do still do the Shoreline with all it's fittings plus there are quite a few extras if you want then. costs £1500 or there abouts.

I really rate them, in fact when/if I ever get the money together for a new boat that's one thats definately on my list.

[CaileanMac]

Owen,

My point wasn't that North Shore won't or don't sell boats to UK paddlers and you righty point out that Mike Thomson at Scottish Paddler Supplies is a dealer for them. My point was that they like most other UK manufactuers export most of their boats abroad these days.

Seen a boat they manufactured last season and it certainly was well made with attention to detail throughout. North Shore have some classic designs like the Shoreline and the Calypso.

CaileanMac

[Mark R]

I don't usually take note of polls, but this one seems to be trying to tell us something. Only 1 in 7 respondants specifically said that they'd like to see the sport stay as it is.

Hmm.

[CaileanMac]

MarkR,

Only third want change (28%). Statistics - you can make them say anything you want them to say - seem to remember a quote from a uni lecturer but can't remember exactly how it went. Politican's make a living out of making statistics say what they want them to say or indicate ;-)

However feel that's healthy that most people recognise that things will evolve and develop (by embracing change or simply going with flow) - it's needed in some aspects of sea kayaking potentially and the results are clear to see in terms of the different kinds of people now involved in UK sea kayaking, who previously possibly woudn't have been, i.e. people who don't eat seagull's raw for breakfast ;-)

CaileanMac

[Mark R]

Duh, I actually misread the headings...tired.

I am admittedly extremely wary of 'polls'...I think they tell you about the person who wrote them and reduce discussions to yes/ no variables. In fact, why am I hedging my words? I simply hate them.



(Doesn't Comic Sans MS Not Suck, Or Not? - YES/ NO)

[CaptainSensible]

I suppose so (in response to Marks pre-edited post!), but I don't really understand what Tim's point was (outside of insignificant indifference to the UKSGB merchandise [i don't wear anything with graphics on unless I have no choice] and the long term viability of UK kayak manufacturers).

When I started looking into kayaking as serious hobby again, I wasn't aware of any 'image' or some monolithic state of 'the sport'; I was just out shore/pier fishing one day with my dad and realised that paddling about at 6 am in the morning would be more fun. I'm still not aware of any image or fixed idea of the sport; the only thing that I have encountered that resembles conservatism is a preference for curvy boats (I think Swedeform boats with low rear decks are more handsome) and limited colour schemes (thank God for Rockpool!)

The sport only needs to change/get organised if the current setup of individual paddlers just doing their thing isn't enough to sustain the manufacturing side of the industry (whether based in the UK or anywhere else), but I don't know enough about the economics of boat building to have any input on that (Tim presumably does).

[Zoe Newsam]

One thing that I definitely think needs to change is the internal outfitting of sea boats.

Until I bought my own river-running play boat about 5 months ago, I hadn't realised just how comfortable & well-fitting it was possible for a kayak to be. I had made an unsuccessful attempt to pad my sea kayak to make it comfortable, and thought it was my fault I wasn't comfy yet. Now, however I realise that actually there is nothing in my boat to assist in this (ie nothing in the cockpit to brace against), and actually it doesn't fit anything like as well as I thought.

And this in a boat that I bought brand new for around £1600!

So, why is it that Sea Kayak manufacturers are so far behind in this respect? Tim, perhaps you can help on this one...

[MikeB]

Mark, Change - according to Tim's poll, 68% (or two in three) of the respondents don't care, one way or another. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. But a lot depends on how a poll is devised in the first place.

Mike.

[Tim S]

.....the result of the poll is actually not important ( I never intended it to be, I agree polls are pretty useless ). My intention was ( as I have already mentioned ) to promote discussion concerning the image of sea kayaking today.

Hence why I use the words 'discuss' rather then 'yes/no' :-)

As for why the outfitting in sea kayaks suck...well there are lots of factors in this including 'traditional' views ( you don't put bucket racing seats in a DB7 ) and the demands of the buying public ( you don't ask, you don't get ). Things are changing on that front though.

I hate to say it but the Wilderness Systems have some awesome ideas ( taken from the wavesport range ) and Jason and Pete over at Valley have some very cheeky things they are working on ( Pete Orton used to fit the Pyranha 'Hooker' thighgrips in his P&H sea kayaks! )

Tim S