Does sea kayaking need an image change?^

[capsized8]

Perhaps you could enlighten me and I am sure most of the people that will read this thread.

Where are you with marketing and or designs applicable to sea kayaking?

What have you done for the sport/leisure activity, where can it be seen?

If there is an involvement, is it generic (for the good of all) or is it of a more self sustaining nature? (your own business perhaps)

I can answer all of that. Tim actually answers some of those questions above, e.g. he put together the P&H website. Tim worked for Pyranha/ P&H until recently. When he was within the industry, he was happy to respond here on the forum to enquiries about their products, and he also regularly used opinions and attitudes expressed here ,to inform his company about the state of the UK market.

Thanks Mark, I now have a face to what was for me a faceless post and puts a little flesh onto the topic.

I do think that a little more transparency regarding posts would be helpful and go someway to stopping posts becoming inflamed.

Tim, I certainly was not trying to score a hit or any points. Just trying to establish where you or your interests stand on the issue raised.

[Tim S]

no worries :-)

I have to be honest in these 'post industry' days, I do feel like this guy....



"...you may know me from such websites as....."

Tim S

[MikeB]

Cailean - beards, or lack of - -

How much of that is down to the traditional British kayak being perceived as tippy / unstable and requiring lots of practise and experiecne to master do you think? And perhaps UK paddling conditions in the sense of a focus on bigger trips / relatively difficult waters?

The US market seems to have had a different philosophy - comfy, stable boats, with rudders, available almost everywhere and paddled by people who are not perhaps as committed to the activity? And whose focus is different? I accept the earlier comments that the US market may itself be changing and there seems to be a demand for British / Greenland style boats of course.

Any comments from "across the pond" to add to this?

Mike.

[Mike Marshall]

Please, no one commercialise Sea paddling!!!
It is isolation, it is peaceful, it is stress free, it is what you want it to be.
I do it to escape. To escape all the marketing, the adverts, the media, the negativity, the hype that surrounds our daily lives and the negativity that is winding people slowly up all over the planet and enveloping them in dis-ease.
It takes me away both physically and mentally and I always return completely at peace within. That is why I do it, it doesnt NEED anything.

It is certainly not dying, ask P&H about their orders, you will be lucky to get a boat built much before the end of spring, look at the range of boats available from the UK builders and the new builders. Ask them how their business is, it is extremely healthy.
People drift into and out of Sea paddling and like everything it will have peaks and troughs. Lets just keep drifting.

Regards
Mike Marshall

[Mark R]

Please, no one commercialise Sea paddling!!!

Let's not fool ourselves. That moment has long since passed.

http://www.expeditionkayak.com/iceland_sponsors.php
http://www.cackletv.com/sponsors.html
http://www.nigeldenniskayaks.com/sponso ... dndk.shtml

...I could go on and on. Nothing against this, it's just the way it is. Ignoring the fact that the paddlers who currently inspire us have necessary commercial connections would be a bit blinkered.

[Mike Marshall]

Mark,
Totally agree and I have bought both the "Sea" DVD's. They are superb and very inspirational. I think we may be in a very seminal stage of Sea Kayak growth.

But what of the future? I just wouldnt want to be part of licensed kayaks, permits to paddle and permits to camp etc. These are the sort of things that could come along with commercialisation. Its that sort of thing that worries me.

Regards
Mike

[Mark R]

Unfortunately, the portrayal of sea kayaking does tend to be more of the touring aspect

Well...horses for courses. For me personally, it's totally about the journey, not thrills and spills. Whitewater tends to provide me with that, any excitement on the sea I tend to find pretty unpleasant.

Personally, I think Justine Curvengen's 'This is the Sea' videos have done much to change the perception of the sport/hobby to others

I agree that Justine's work - along with people like Aled Williams and Julian Patrick producing 'playboats' like the Rockpool or RH340 - has shown what sea kayakers are capable of and how much fun 'parknplay' sea kayaking has been...

- particularly whitewater paddlers who have cottoned on that there are big water rapids, with no access problems and no lack of water available.

...however, I don't follow this latter point at all. I know quite a few WW paddlers who've come into sea kayaking. I've even converted a few myself! I am certain that none of them have come across to escape access hassles, and certainly none of them have come for the 'big water rapids'...because there is simply no comparison in this respect.

The sea absolutely does not offer the same whitewater challenges.

The best WW experiences we've had on rivers have involved miles of non-stop constant manoveuring around and over technical hazards, or running successions of steep drops, or throwing the boat several feet into the air and landing in control, I could go on!

The best WW experiences we've had on the sea have involved surfing waves, or bouncing along a wave train for half a mile.

My point? Whatever sea kayaking is, it certainly isn't any kind of substitute for WW river-running or playboating, only with wider banks and saltier water.

Bertie...you've done a fair bit of WW...what do you think?

[Dave Thomas]

My point? Whatever sea kayaking is, it certainly isn't any kind of substitute for WW river-running or playboating, only with wider banks and saltier water.

Oh I don't know - I can get scared witless in either environment!

Dave Thomas

[CaileanMac]

MikeB

Both the UK and US scene's are changing - big growth in numbers here paddling sit on tops and recreational kayaks and in the US a huge number of people paddling 'performance British boats'. A crossover from the percived norms. There are people in the US who want to become seagull eaters and paddle 50 miles a day and there are people here in the UK who want to paddle for a few hours in their tidal estuary which is a real change in the scenes if you compare it to 10 years ago. I reached this opinion after spending a season coaching a huge number of people who wanted to paddle British boats and be coached by a British coach. However I drew the line at teaching people to grow a 'BCU beard' or eat seagulls whole ;-)

What's the point I'm making, simply that different things motivate and stimulate different people.....courses....horses....

As to Mike Marshall's point about camping permits, perhaps it may come in the UK with the arrival of this but may I add that it won't just be because of 'commerical' pressures but also the ever increasing recreational pressures on 'honey pot' sites like the Sound of Arisaig.

CaileanMac

[Zoe Newsam]

Cailean - beards, or lack of - -

How much of that is down to the traditional British kayak being perceived as tippy / unstable and requiring lots of practise and experiecne to master do you think? And perhaps UK paddling conditions in the sense of a focus on bigger trips / relatively difficult waters?

Mike.

I don't think this has anything to do with most people's perception of Sea Kayaking. For most WW paddlers, particularly, the image of paddling a long, difficult-to-manouevre boat on flat water with a bunch of beardy middle-aged blokes (sorry chaps!) is simply not cool.

Sea Kayaking IS still male dominated (trust me on this one...), but this is changing. However in the rest of the paddling world, the image is somewhat lagging behind.

As for non-paddlers, well people will come / not come to the sport if they want to. Most non-paddlers don't know the difference between a kayak and a canoe, much less the difference between a WW or sea boat.

For me, Sea Kayaking is a bit of everything. I enjoy the Park & Play (Penrhyn Mawr etc) aspect, relaxed day trips and multi-day expeditions. It means something different to everyone- after all, variety is the spice of life!

Tim- I personally think you're entirely within your rights to express your opinion of the T-shirts, as long as it's not offensive.

Zoe

[James F]

Tim was editing Playak before Mark and I - certainly I - had a computer.

[Tim S]

James F Wrote:

Tim was editing Playak before Mark and I - certainly I - had a computer.

I guess I was one of the original kayaking web junkies! ( And I have just re-done their logo with an Urban Camo Flavour) I also got published in all the UK mags and some of the US ones...had to give up all that writing and reviews when I was 'in the industry' ( conflicts of interest and all that ), but now I am out...I'm free, and I want to share! :-)

As for this thread, I certainly seemed to have stirred up an emotive subject, but it is comforting to see people taking ownership of this 'sport' ( for want of a better word ).

Just to mix it up a bit, how about consider some manufacturing issues....

British Company 'A' produce a classic sea kayak built in the UK and it retails for £1600. They attend all the symps and sponsor a couple of top sea kayakers. Ultimately they give back to the kayaking community...keeping it real.

Far East Company 'B' produce a classic sea kayak built in the far east and it can retail in the UK for £800 ( exactly the same construction ). They have a nice distributer who sponsors a couple of paddlers and attends a few of the events.

You are consumer 'C' and you go to your local kayak store...what sea kayak do you buy and how will that affect your enjoyment of sea kayaking?

Just offering up the question......

Tim S

[Bertie..]

My point? Whatever sea kayaking is, it certainly isn't any kind of substitute for WW river-running or playboating, only with wider banks and saltier water.

Bertie...you've done a fair bit of WW...what do you think?

I think there's a move to cross over whitewater playboating skills into tidal races, places such as the falls of lora, the bitches etc are well known to river kayakers for playboating opportunities. The combination of these skills with boats such as the rockhopper or Aled's Alaw is starting to open up new opportunities for more of a 'play' style of sea kayaking - even Ken Whiting has got into it with sea kayaks lately.

Certainly amongst the guys I sea kayak with, there are regular 'play' sessions in tidal races, along the lines of the 'black belt sea kayaking' stuff that has been in recent vids. Also, I know some of my mates have started taking surf kayaks into tidal races to look at what opportunities are there.

All of this is possibly driven by a lack of local, regularly available whitewater paddling - it shares the same skillset, and it gives the same pleasures.

By 'big water' rapids I wasn't implying hig-grade stuff, although places like the Bitches, Ramsey Sound, etc do demand respect. Most are more big volume grade 2 rapilds with plenty of play opportunity for those who deliberately choose to use these venues for playing rather than bouncing through or avoiding.

The one thing I share amongst my sea, surf & whitewater kayaking is my love of being in challenging environments, and having a big grin on my face. Yes, in each the environment is different, but often the same, or slightly modified, skillset can reward the paddler with the same level of enjoyment.

Mark, hope that puts a slightly different viewpoint across..

[MikeB]

British Company 'A' produce a classic sea kayak built in the UK and it retails for £1600. They attend all the symps and sponsor a couple of top sea kayakers. Ultimately they give back to the kayaking community...keeping it real.

Far East Company 'B' produce a classic sea kayak built in the far east and it can retail in the UK for £800 ( exactly the same construction ). They have a nice distributer who sponsors a couple of paddlers and attends a few of the events.

Too simplistic - however, lets assume that all the possible variables are the same in terms of design, finish, support, quality (they wont be) - in that case it's down to nothing other than price.

In the real world, price is not the deciding factor in any negotiation or purchase - it's a factor, but it's actually a minor one. WERE the two craft to be exactly the same offering, differentiated ONLY by price, then the £800 is the obvious choice and it's up to the British manufacturer to compete. If they can't, well life's tough.

You can argue that it's dreadful that foreign manufacturers are pushing out the poor old Brits - and British jobs and skills are lost. Meanwhile, back in the real world, the foreign jonnies just get on with producing better and better boats rather than moaning about it.

The alternative is trade tarrifs or articificial subsidy - all of which support the complacency of which British industry is (was?) so well known.

RIP:
Triumph.
Norton.
BSA
British Leyland (God help us, that was no loss - )
The coal and steel industry.
The Labour Party.
Etc

Mike.

[Tim S]

...ok maybe I have given a simplified view, but in reality the situation is not that far removed.

With all these comments on 'getting out there' and 'escaping marketing hype' by just going paddling, my question is would purchasing a kayak made in the far east affect this in any way?

Surely if the kayak is the same, the experience is the same?

Or maybe not? maybe....just maybe in purchasing a British Sea Kayak from a British company we are indeed buying into 'a lifestyle'....and I'm going to argue that that 'lifestyle' is the creation of marketing..be it adverts, videos, articles, press releases, symposiums, sponsored padders.

Clearly 'this buying into a lifestyle' is not the only reason people take up sea kayaking.....but it is a factor and to deny on this forum is a contradiction in itself.

Discuss...:-)

Tim S

[Jim]

If they were truly equal the only difference is the level of support from a UK based manufacturer in the event of a problem, and of course the possibilities for non standard construction and optional built in extras - which you could get from a far east producer but the delay and potential for mis-communication will put most people off.

JIM

[Zoe Newsam]

British Company 'A' produce a classic sea kayak built in the UK and it retails for £1600. They attend all the symps and sponsor a couple of top sea kayakers. Ultimately they give back to the kayaking community...keeping it real.

Far East Company 'B' produce a classic sea kayak built in the far east and it can retail in the UK for £800 ( exactly the same construction ). They have a nice distributer who sponsors a couple of paddlers and attends a few of the events.

This is obviously a simplified version of events- at the end of the day it depends most on which boat suits me best, and that varies from batch to batch, model to model etc.

Personally, however, I tend to be quite effected by the personalities involved in the design & build of the boats. It is no secret that I'm very fond of both Rockpool and NDK designs, and no coincidence that I've paddled numerous times with both Aled & Nigel. They're both visible, talented, extremely experienced in their field, and they're available for advice and help if you need it. Ultimately, they care about the boats they produce. I currently paddle a Valley boat, but needless to say my next boat will be either a Rockpool or an NDK (probably the former).

However if, as was the case with me from Knoydart, I receive truly dreadful service, I will not hesitate to shout about that either. When spending a large amount of cash, why should we be content with third rate service? For me, that's what differentiates the British companies.

Yes, price is an issue- but I do try where possible to support good, small, British companies.


Mark,
As for the 'playing' thing, I think there are another two factors to remember:

a) Modest as you all are, you & your paddling buddies are exceptionally skilled & experienced. Most of us are not paddling at that level and so what is easy, and doesn't raise any adrenalin for you would, for example, for me.

b) The environment involved plays a big part for me. I love the Stacks area of Anglesey, because it's a beautiful place, and because every time I go there it's different according to wind, tide and weather. I tried out Hurley for the first time on Saturday, and although there are a lot of other factors involved (ie I need a better roll before I can appreciate it fully), the fact that it is ultimately a concrete ditch on the Thames doesn't do it for me. (sorry James, Chris etc...:0( )

Flippin' heck, that was a long one... ;0)

Zoe

[Tim S]

Jim Wrote

If they were truly equal the only difference is the level of support from a UK based manufacturer in the event of a problem, and of course the possibilities for non standard construction and optional built in extras - which you could get from a far east producer but the delay and potential for mis-communication will put most people off.

makes sense, but this has been proved wrong with the US market ordering from UK sea kayak manufacturers ( and the supply chain from the Far East at the moment is a lot more efficient than from the UK ).

Tim S

[MikeB]

Personally, however, I tend to be quite effected by the personalities involved in the design & build of the boats. It is no secret that I'm very fond of both Rockpool and NDK designs, and no coincidence that I've paddled numerous times with both Aled & Nigel. They're both visible, talented, extremely experienced in their field, and they're available for advice and help if you need it. Ultimately, they care about the boats they produce. I currently paddle a Valley boat, but needless to say my next boat will be either a Rockpool or an NDK (probably the former).

However if, as was the case with me from Knoydart, I receive truly dreadful service, I will not hesitate to shout about that either. When spending a large amount of cash, why should we be content with third rate service? For me, that's what differentiates the British companies.


Flippin' heck, that was a long one... ;0)

Zoe

Personality / style / service / design are all the factors that influence the decision - people buy on a "want" driver, not a "need" one, and if those "wants" are influenced by more than price - - - -

For me, service is critical - and in contrast, I consistently receive very good service from Knoydart. And others. And yes, I'll support British companies, but I don't drive a British car mainly because of the "service" factor! (Mind you, ARE there any?)

Must have been your longest post ever Zoe?

Mike.

[CaptainSensible]

If I was able to buy a (3 piece) Alaw with custom whatever and a custom paint job etc. for £800, then I would. I can't though, and I doubt that it will ever be possible.

Sea kayaking may be growing, but I can't see it getting as big as something like cycling (where the remaining manufacturers just design frames and get everything else from the Far East [and often have the frames made there too]). Sailing etc. just isn't that "big"; if it was, then all of my friends & neighbours would own boats.

[Jim]

Jim Wrote

If they were truly equal the only difference is the level of support from a UK based manufacturer in the event of a problem, and of course the possibilities for non standard construction and optional built in extras - which you could get from a far east producer but the delay and potential for mis-communication will put most people off.

makes sense, but this has been proved wrong with the US market ordering from UK sea kayak manufacturers ( and the supply chain from the Far East at the moment is a lot more efficient than from the UK ).

Tim S

I presume this only refers to the delay?

I suspect, and with your industry knowledge you can confirm/correct me, that the difference is production line vs batch construction.

Someone producing boats for £800 in the far east can only do it if every boat is identical and his labourers are at maximum efficiency on a production line. British manufacturers probably try and produce similar boats together when they get a chance but can cope with each boat being outfitted slightly differently if required, even simple things like a custom colour would cause too much disruption to a production line, whilst a batch builder probably paints the gel coat on by hand and it will only take a few minutes extra to mix a small batch with a different pigment.

Shoreham import boats or shells and outfit them at a fantastic price - how does their list of options compare with Valley's or P&H's (I don't know where to find any of them anymore, Knoydart catalogue used to list the Valley options)?????

I reckon US customers buy British partly for the reputation, and partly for the level of customisation.

JIM

[Tim S]

...obviously I can't go into details concerning prices and set-ups of different companies, but I can tell you that the huge saving in composite manufacture in the far east are made not only in the process, but also in the wages and overheads ( health and safety for one! ). Much like UK kayaks I have seen amazing examples from the Far East and I have seen some utter pants ones too!

Tim S

[jurgenk]

Speaking only for myself, when I imported a boat from Britain 13 years ago it was because I was in love with the romantic notion of what that boat represented (and what those paddling the boat were doing), and the fact that the style was not represented at all by North American manufacturers. I am now currently paddling a P&H Capella RM due to the fact that it was "British" and at a price point I could afford (due in large part to P&H/Pyrhana now having an efficient NA production and distribution center). My next boat will probably be a composite Impex (manufactured in Ontario) as it is quite a bit cheaper than P&H's designs and I wonder about the effect of outsourcing has had on P&H's building standards.

My choice is not based on the fact that it is built in Canada (although that has a place) as I would have bought a P&H boat just as quickly, but more to my realization that it is not about the boat but the paddler. My romantic notions have changed since I bought a Nordkapp and I am a little more grounded in what I am going to be doing and I have no need of the extra expense of a "British" piece of kit (if I buy a Canadian boat and it breaks apart than I only have myself to blame).

[Tim S]

jurgenk wrote

I am now currently paddling a P&H Capella RM due to the fact that it was "British" and at a price point I could afford (due in large part to P&H/Pyrhana now having an efficient NA production and distribution center). My next boat will probably be a composite Impex (manufactured in Ontario) as it is quite a bit cheaper than P&H's designs and I wonder about the effect of outsourcing has had on P&H's building standards.

Can I just clarify that the Pyranha/P&H office in Asheville, NC, is only a distribution centre. ( though they are looking at opening a shop as they have just moved next to the river ). They are capable of changing a few things on sea kayaks ( fitting rudders to rudder ready models etc ), but all P&H kayaks are still made in the UK ( the plastic models are made in the Pyranha factory in Runcorn and the composites are still all made in West Hallam ).

Pre-Pyranha the P&H plastic kayaks were made by a trade moulder, so in effect the outsourcing has actually been reduced rather than increased.

Just clarifying...

Tim S

[jurgenk]

Sorry for adding to the urban legend... I was misinformed as I thought that P&H had outsourced some of their manufacturering.

Brad

[Chris W]

I've been following this one with interest. Tim's comments were always going to get a reaction!

Zoe, just to prove I've been concentrating, I'm sorry a concrete ditch on the Thames (AKA Hurley) didn't do it for you! Hurley is an awful place to get into play boating- too fast and steep, too over crowded and too cold. Stick with it though, and eventually, trust me, it's fantastic.

You must admit though, that the Thames Tideway is a 'must'.

Chris W.

[CaptainSensible]

I must have got distracted by the whole image/logo/outsourcing issue and missed the big question about the current & long-term viability of the Kayak building business (over capacity in plastic boat production etc.)

Once people are set up with boat, paddles, and clothing etc., how long is it before they go and spend a huge amount of money again? If people hang onto their boats for several years, how many newcomers do VSK and Pyranha/P&H etc. have to attract every year to stay in business? What will happen to Rockpool when everyone who wants an Alaw has one?

I'm not implying that the industry is doomed or anything; I'm just curious.

[Mark R]

I bought a budget sea boat which was made in some unspecified European location and imported to the UK.

I would never for a moment shell out money for a sea kayak which I wasn't very happy with, and I really do believe that my Kaspian is a great boat. However, cost was a definite factor in my choice and instantly over-rode considerations such as supporting the UK kayak manufacturing industry.

Should I be ashamed?

[Zoe Newsam]

Zoe, just to prove I've been concentrating, I'm sorry a concrete ditch on the Thames (AKA Hurley) didn't do it for you! Hurley is an awful place to get into play boating- too fast and steep, too over crowded and too cold. Stick with it though, and eventually, trust me, it's fantastic. Chris W.

Thanks Chris- I'll try again when it's a bit warmer and my roll's more reliable, I think.

[CaileanMac]

TimS,

When P+H plastic sea kayaks starting being made at the Pyranha factory the quality standards fell well below what folks had come to expect from P+H when they where outsourced. It is fair to say what is coming out now is a lot better but there is still room for improvement in terms of consistancy of quality.

This opinion is based on paddling several boats and working with clients who had bought P+H plastic sea kayaks throughout 2004 & 2005. No urban myths or rumours but what saw before me during those seasons.

As for producing boats in the Far East, Island Kayaks have been at that game but are currently looking for a new manufacturing factory for the production of their sea kayaks, so I am led to believe. So long as the quality matches then it's up to folks here to be competitive but they do have the advantage of being able to do customisation and have the scope to provide a better level of customer service.

As to the point Captain Sensible raises - it's the job of marketing to make us want to upgrade our boat more often have every 10-20 years and sea kayak manufacturers and retailers are beginnning to realise this........

CaileanMac