Kayaks and sharks in Cornwall

[Mark R]

Read the comments...

https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/? ... 585&type=1

[Richard Uren]

It hasn`t gone down well and undoes a lot of goodwill.

[PhilAyr]

I have seen this posted before, so here it is again....

http://www.baskingsharks.org/content.asp?did=26602

The pdf applicable to kayakers is at the bottom.

P.S. Came across a young one yesterday just off Culzean Castle, Firth of Clyde in Ayrshire. :-)

Phil

[Chris Bolton]

It hasn`t gone down well and undoes a lot of goodwill

Sorry, I'm a bit confused here - what hasn't gone down well? Kayakers approaching sharks, other boats approaching sharks or kayakers being accused of approaching sharks?

Chris

[Richard Uren]

A group of kayaks following and getting too close to the sharks, possibly impeding their natural behaviour and upsetting them.

[Mark R]

getting too close to the sharks

I have no knowledge of the incident they're getting hot under the collar about (and I suspect that neither have most of the commentators), but I'm sure you know that the sharks themselves often approach and investigate paddlers (this has happened in about two thirds of my shark encounters). No one was chasing this fellow as he swam towards me and brushed his back on my hull...



http://southwestseakayaking.co.uk/2012/ ... s-maximus/

Obviously, basking sharks should be approached only to an appropriately sensitive distance, as all the guidance tells us...but when the sharks themselves approach paddlers, I guess that we just have to use our common sense and make up rules as suits the occasion...just remembering that if it feels wrong, then it probably is.

[spawneydave]

Nice pictures

These self proclaimed exsperts on our wildlife do get a bit silly at times, its not that many years ago these fish used to lay there while someone stuck a harpoon in there heads.

I heard a birdwatcher complaining that Kayaks are a nusance because the Puffins fly away from them so are obviously distressed.

[David Fairweather]

I met plenty of inquisitive basking sharks around Mingulay this week. Some would ignore us, and rest would approach our boats, swim underneath for a bit, and then carry on with their business as usual, presumably content that a couple of kayaks represent no threat to them. Beautiful creatures and it's a pleasure to see them from so close and from a craft that doesn't disturb them.

[PhilAyr]

This is a commercial enterprise that's making most of the noise.They charge up to £40 a head for a trip and if the punter doesn't get what they were promised they will quite rightly ask for their money back ! Probably more to do with financial gain than the welfare of the basking shark.

I don't honestly think that kayakers are harrasing the wildlife to the extent that they would want us to believe. Yes of course you get the odd bad apple in any bunch, but I tend to agree with Mark and David. If you sit still they will come up to the kayaker, as did the one David and I met the other day.

The point they made about seals is another matter. If you are too close, you only have to move your paddle and there all in the water.

Kayakers seem to be an easy target for this sort of complaint, but lets get real here... If I were a basking shark or a seal, I would rather be hit over the head with a carbon paddle than struck by a propeller ! !

Phil

[PhilAyr]

Is this not more of a problem ?...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-19182453

Phil

[Mark R]

That link about the IOM makes for grim reading.

A few more links...

Some very good notes on kayakers and seals - http://www.suesseals.eclipse.co.uk/Seal ... yakers.pdf - incidentally the author has a great article in Ocean Paddler mag this month, and also wrote this great little book, among the best treatises I've seen on grey seals (and I've trawled through a fair few, for book-writing related reasons)... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Seal-Secrets-Co ... 906720842/

Worst example of 'eco-tourism' I've ever seen - http://southwestseakayaking.co.uk/2011/ ... s-norfolk/

[Mike Marshall]

I took my wife to Mull late May in the best weather I have ever experienced there. As she is not a kayaker, we took a boat trip to Staffa to see the puffins and wildlife. The boat, for those interested was the "Iolaire of Iona" http://www.staffatrips.co.uk/
Upon leaving Ffionnphort we headed north through the channel where the ferry is moored in bad weather. Just past this the skipper announced on the Tannoy that hopefully we would be able to see the seals that reside just ahead of us as we motored on. He continued with "if the seals are not there its usually due to the kayakers who are always around here paddling, they scare them away"
I took serious offence at this, knowing in my own mind it was untrue.
Later when out on the open stretch of water with one of the crew at the helm, the Skipper started walking around, introducing himself to everyone.... :-)))
He said "howdo you do?" - my response was immediate - "well, right now I want to throw you overboard, because I am one of those kayakers and you are talking rubbish. Whats more you really shouldn't tag every kayaker like this. Have you ever been kayaking???
You will find that the approach is noiseless and the seals are far more inquisitive than disturbed. In fact in North wales they actually climb onto the decks of the kayaks to investigate us!!" Red faced and humbled he muttered "oh we think they tend to disturb them here", I replied "well they will take to the water whenever any craft approaches, its their only escape and they cant really move on land!! But, in the case of kayaks, they follow us and more often than not they will come nudging the boat"....."hmmm maybe your right" says he, moving on to others for introductions.
Another uneducated portrayal of kayakers by a commercial operation!!
On the return from Staffa, he swung back into the channel and pulled up not 30ft from a one seal for everyone to see, engines throbbing in reverse to maintain the boat position!!!

MikeM

[Duncan001]

Hi,
My name is Duncan and I run Marine Discovery Penzance with my partner. Firstly to address the comment above yes we are a commercial company running wildlife trips and yes our longest trip costs £40 per head. No we do not guarantee wildlife and no we don't offer money back if passengers don't see anything. We follow strict codes of conduct for wildlife watching and I have actively been studying/researching marine wildlife/ecosystems for most of my adult life, but I never proclaim myself as an "expert" as someone has suggested here. I am very lucky to be able to make a living doing what I love and through doing it contribute to the conservation of the environment I know and love. I am currently working on a number of papers looking at how small cetaceans use the coast and its dynamic features for foraging, and am working on a case study relating to codes of conduct for an international NGO looking to create a more sustainable future for wildlife watching boats.

With regards to the incidents I witnessed on Thursday, first the younger man on the sit on top kayak paddled directly over to the shark to within touching distance. This incident, it seemed, occured because he had a lack of knowledge of wildlife and disturbance issues. Not really an excuse and doesn't alter the fact that the shark was disturbed. Having just recovered from this the same shark was then subjected to another incident. What appeared to be a group of guided kayakers or a club paddled into Porthcurno, spotted the shark and paddled directly over to it. The lead paddler approched to within 3 feet of the shark and paddled along close behind it (I have a distance stick on the boat that we use to assess distances for research) apparently intent on getting some go pro footage. Luckily this didn't disturb the shark's feeding. However the shark then turned to feed back up the plankton slick and, as it passed, the rest of the group surrounded it all within 6 feet of the shark. The shark then raised its tail and dived deep (an escape response) and swam away from the paddlers and unfortunately away from the food source it was feeding on. This is disturbance. It was not only witnessed by me, my crew and the 12 passengers on my boat but also by the Minack Theatre staff who are very experienced in viewing sharks. It was at this point that I shouted (because of the distance) across that they had just disturbed the shark and as well as everything else, actually spoiled their own viewing of it, and that they should not now try and follow the shark.

This was undeniably wildlife disturbance. Do you honestly think that the incident described above is acceptable? Highlighting this incident on our FB page really does not mean we are anti-kayak and just in it for the money as someone suggested.

We are also well aware that any vessel or even swimmer can cause wildlife disturbance. We are very friendly with a number of the memebrs of Penzance Canoe club and happily promote two of them who run guided kayak trips because we know they have a safe approach around wildlife. As an aside, our boat is a sailing cat and has two very small outboards, not a noisy smelly diesel or powerful outboard, as has also been suggested. I can't comment on other operations round the country and their behaviour - all I can say is if you see something as blatently unacceptable as we saw with this group. wouldn't you want to try and do something about it too?

With regard to seal disturbance, we are friends with Sue Sayer and work with the Cornwall Seal Group on photo ID. Her set of guidelines for kayaks are excellent as is her book. On a number of occasions I have witnessed kayakers disturb seals from rocks some seemed to be experienced and some very new to the sport but thats besides the point as the issue is the disturbance. In fact after someone had erroneously accused him of seal disturbance last week, I was only chatting with Richard Uren the other day about these issues. Seals on the rocks are easily disturbed: seals in the water are far less so. It's that simple.

The paddlers on Thurdsday are giving all paddlers a bad name and there are many who will lump you all in the same category which in my opinion is a real shame. Having said that, you are the ones in a position to positively influence this situation which I believe is what Richard Uren, for one, was saying at the start of this thread.

Had you seen the incident, I'm sure you would agree with everyone else's opinions of it, including those on the cliff who were watching.

[No Kayak]

Sheer arrogance.

[bobt]

[quote="Duncan001"]

Possibly the most singularly sanctimonious post, on any site, I have ever had the mis-fortune to read.

[Duncan001]

Well there's no debating with you lot then is there and this is the reason many people have an issue with kayakers.

[Mark R]

I don't think the few posts above are helpful...simplistic and one-sided.

The guy lays out at length why he thinks these paddlers were in the wrong. They did something similar on their FB page. Yes, we got that - no one at all has suggested that they weren't.

The post above is more balanced than some of the FB stuff (now deleted, I see) but bits he/ they doesn't seem to 'get', are...

1. A constructive approach might have been to have a quiet chat with these paddlers, or better still to let it go at the time and then circulate useful info to paddlers (i.e. education not abuse)...not instead give them a roasting infront of their customers 'emphatically' as they put it, before posting pics of them on the internet. The approach they took is their perogative, but rather implies they feel they have some kind of sanctimonious jurisdiction over the local wildlife, which brings me to the other thing they don't seem to 'get'...

2. The 'perpective' issue. Yes, they saw some paddlers get it wrong. Where did they see/ photograph this from? A great big tourist boat, which they use daily to hunt for and follow the sharks and dolphins, and to visit the same seal haulouts repeatedly. As a business venture. I actually don't think there is much wrong with this, done properly...if nothing else, it helps the public to appreciate marine ecosystems. But the idea implied on FB that paddlers repeatedly harass the wildlife, whilst the big daily tour boat is there to save the wildlife from interference, lacks perspective and self-awareness, to put it mildly.

[StewartR]

This is the Scottish Code:

http://www.marinecode.org/documents/Guide-web.pdf

Content which relates to basking sharks starts on page 16.

Stewart

[jmmoxon]

In many cases the tour boats don't cause the same level of disturbance as kayaks because (for example) the seals are used to seeing them every day, of course not all operators stick to the guidelines, but neither do all kayakers and with the massive increase in sales of sit on tops, our disturbance is likely to increase - I'm guessing they are seeing it happen more often which is why they feel the need to post it on their website, looking at the photos the group do appear to be following the shark.

Most of the boat operators are former fishermen, so there present business is arguably causing less damage to the environment than their previous occupation...

I think we all need to maintain a level of perspective here and not be so quick to take umbrage.

Mike

[Chris Bolton]

I thought Duncan's post was fair enough - didn't seem arrogant to me. But I didn't see the original FB post.

There's definately a lot of different opinion (and I'm not criticising anyone) on what disturbs marine animals, and what doesn't. If you're on a big boat, you're a bit above water level and on a stable platform that you can use binoculars from, so you can see the wildlife from further away. As a human, a big boat further away can look more threatening than a small boat close up; the animals may have a different perspective. I used to feel that as a kayak I would be less disruptive than a motor boat at a distance, but I not sure now.

Kayakers can't see the animals until they get relatively close, and they often end up closer to shore than larger boats (keeping out of wind and tide, etc) which is one reason why we sometimes (regretably) surprise seals hauled out. Not being able to see them from a distance doesn't justify chasing them to see them better, if that distresses them.

What does frustrate me is the aggression shown by some boat operators to ALL kayakers, just because SOME kayakers disturbed animals. Kayaks are also vulnerable (as Nigel can tell you) - I once had to head for shallow water to avoid being run down by a motor boat that was behaving upredictably and not following Colregs; unfortunately, invisible from my direction of approach, the skerries I was heading for had seals hauled out on the other side, which the boat driver was bringing people to see. I've no doubt he told people I was out of order approaching the seals, whereas I was just trying to cope with his lack of awareness of other craft.

We need communication and understanding, not cricism and accusations.

Chris

PS - I have a feeling deja vu here, attitudes are very similar to cyclists v motorists (and pedestrians v cyclists)

[jmmoxon]

& fishermen v river kayakers...

If we all talk to each other more when we get the opportunity we can minimise the animosity.

Mike

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

It's the "disturbing" terminology that makes me laugh. So the odd kayaker will paddle too close to a shark and cause it to swim somewhere else. Or they go past some seals and the seals jump in the water cause they're a bit wary. What happens next? Seems to me that someone is implying the seals all get depressed, take to the bottle and end up committing suicide by swimming into the props of a fishing trawler, whilst the basking sharks have to go through years of therapy before they feel up to going back in water and swimming around.

I'm of the opinion that the seals will swim around for a bit, checking the kayak out, before returning to their basking spots whilst the sharks will resume doing whatever they were doing as soon as they're clear of the paddler. Kayakers are not the only predators in the water and it does the wildlife good to practice their predator avoidance skills from time to time. At least we aint going to actually follow through and kill them.

I have, in the past had seals approach us, chew on our end toggles and try to climb on the back deck. I didn't get the impression that this caused the seals undue mental anguish. Same can't be said for my GF who was a bit nervous to say the least.

[jmmoxon]

Most marine wildlife is already struggling to survive without kayakers adding extra disturbance that uses up vital energy supplies (such as having to jump into the water & climb back out again), once in the water seals are very playful & not easily spooked, but on land they are nervous...

Mike

[andreadawn]

I think there is a serious issue here, which has the potential to restrict our paddling activities at some point in the future if we don't keep our house in order. At present we can pretty much go anywhere we like, anytime we like; a somewhat rare freedom these days which I value greatly. The unique perspectives we get on the marine and coastal environments, and the wildlife that lives there, are the principle reasons I go kayaking.

Standing on a boat or the shore watching wildlife on the sea is just not quite the same as sitting two feet above the water's surface surrounded by guillemots, razorbills and puffins just a few feet away. However, I do think we need to acknowledge that we do sometimes cause "disturbance" to wildlife; ie we change the behaviour of birds and mammals in particular. If birds fly off, we have disturbed them. Energy which might otherwise be used for hunting, or time which might be used for preening or resting, is used instead to avoid us.

A few instances of this might not be too significant, but continual disturbance in some popular areas might just have a serious impact. We also get to many places that would not otherwise be visited by people and land on beaches which would seldom see visitors were it not for kayakers. We may inadvertantly "sneak up" on wildlife, due to the stealthy nature of our boats. This seems to be a particular issue for seals hauled out on drying rocks. We may not mean to cause disturbance: I find this particularly distressing when it happens: but it is still disturbance none the less.

Now, if we were to say that any disturbance of wildlife was unnacceptable, then we wouldn't be able to go paddling anywhere. The reality is that human actions of all sorts have the potential to cause disturbance. I've seen plenty of bad examples from commercial and liesure craft operators, fishermen, kayakers, well-meaning conservationists, holiday makers and so on. I've comitted a few howlers myself. Now I'm no expert on wildlife. I speak purely from the viewpoint of an amatuer naturalist. But when I get it wrong, I do think I have a moral duty to try to understand what happened: to question my motives for being where I was and doing what I was doing, and then thinking long and hard about what I might do differently next time. I think we all have a moral duty to do this and to consider whether we need to modify our own actions in the future.

There are some excellent guidelines out there, particularly with regard to Pembrokeshire and Scotland. At the moment they are just guidelines. But just recently, there was a thread about Marine Conservation Zones in Wales. Whilst I think it unlikely, there was mention in the consultation document about the possibility of restricting or even banning kayaking within the zones concerned. If the idea of banning kayaking has been mentioned in the consultation document, then it is likely that someone, somewhere, with some influence, thinks we are something of a problem.

Now we could just sit back and say, "But we're kayakers; we have rights to do this and that". But I don't think this approach will serve us well in the long term. Or we could say, " Yes we understand that what we do has an impact on the environment we love. What can we do to help reduce that impact?" One of the incidents described above certainly doesn't show the paddling community in a good light if it happened as described. If we don't show that we understand what was wrong about it, and what we need to do to put it right, then ultimately, we may well find our cherished freedoms being legally restricted in the future. For me that would be an absolute tragedy.

Andrea Collins

[Mark R]

I thought Duncan's post was fair enough - didn't seem arrogant to me. But I didn't see the original FB post.

As far as I could tell, the comments on FB from his company chastising paddlers were actually from someone else. He seems to have stepped in as the 'voice of reason' to calm the waters.

[bearshead]

Well I'm new to paddling on the sea, but agree with Andrea, thee ae lots of access problems inland would'nt want the same on the coast!

[Mark R]

All the original comments have been moved from the FB page, and replaced by...

Never try and engage in debate, no matter how polite and reasonable, with a bunch of keyboard warriors who seem to believe they shouldn't be subject to the same scrutiny that all other water users are.

Oh dear. They really don't get it, do they? Not one person has tried to defend the actions of the paddlers on the day.

[Mark R]

Well I'm new to paddling on the sea, but agree with Andrea, thee ae lots of access problems inland would'nt want the same on the coast!

The access problems inland are almost invariably nothing whatsoever to do with environmental issues, although in recent years (as the paucity of landowners' and anglers' legal claims has become evident) , the argument of 'protecting the environment' has been used as a rather lame fall-back reason for attempting to restrict access. Rather an odd tactic, coming from folk who hook fish out of the water and leave fishing tackle everywhere...

[Chris Bolton]

Not one person has tried to defend the actions of the paddlers on the day

Indeed, but the immediate responses to Duncan's post here were that it was arrogant and sanctimonious - and with no counter arguments to support those views. I can understand his reaction.

Chris

[spaddywaddy]

This is sweet, I saw loads of basking sharks while kayaking round Morvah here in Cornwall. There must have been around 30-50 of them. At first it was freaky, but they didnt bother me, and I didnt bother them! Lovely fish, made a great day out it did.