St David's rescue^

[Jim]

At the risk of being labelled an armchair, can anyone explain why the guinea pig's boat couldn't be towed (with the tidal flow)towards the guinea pig rather than the hideous looking, weather shore rock landing from hell ..?

This question also ocurred to me, having once been involved in an incident where a decision was taken to split swimmer and boat. I didn't post the question as I've seen how easy it is for questions, genuinely seeking to understand what happened, to be taken as criticism.

1) For me this scenario becomes interesting at the point you mentioned the casualty, paddling a swamped boat. Standard practice (I think) would be removing the water from the boat before breaking the raft. What factors prevented this?

2) The swimmers boat was towed away from the victim. Was this before or after the two paddlers had committed to following him? At which point was it decided that either the two rescuers could not get the swimmer back to the boat and, that the remaining party should put in rather than follow the swimmer and rescuers. What were the factors that led to both these decisions. What was the dialog, etc?

I did start a possible explanation for this even before you guys asked it, but then I realised it was pure speculation so deleted it. As an exercise in highlighting possibilities, not speculating what actually happened:

We know conditions were at least a bit choppy and there was a tide race involved. In many threads the usefulness of pumps that require the deck to removed or waggling a handle in front or behind you in such conditions has been questioned. We don't know if there were any pumps available, but assuming there were, it might have been the classical conditions the naysayers have always said a pump couldn't effectively be used in? Maybe the casualty's spraydeck was damaged during the first rescue?

We also have had a lot of discussions about the practicality of towing in such conditions, yet I can't actually recall any of the towing threads considering the towing of an empty swamped kayak.
I have done this on whitewater in the past, the most memorable time was on the Lochy (to Fort William) where I towed a boat for several miles after someone swam on the Loy (it went a long way because we got the swimmer first and there was a long delay before we decided we should continue to the Lochy and look for the boat). The Lochy is relatively easy, but was in spate and the only rapids on it have big waves and boils (not unlike the run outs to GC rapids Chris!), to say that towing a swamped boat in these conditions is difficult is only the half of it, I was eaten by a boil and had to roll! I did not find the time under water to feel around for my quick release, I just rolled, grabbed the towed boat for stability and unwrapped myself from the rope.
Attached to a swamped sea kayak in exciting conditions with the prospect of running a tide race ahead of me, well can you work out where I would have gone?

Rule No.1 In trying to help a casualty, be careful not to get yourself into a situation where you also become a casualty, that helps no-one.

I don't know what happened, I can see that a situation could unfold where the rescue of the swimmer ended up in the main race where the group rescuing the boat could not reasonably have followed.

One of the problems with the real world is, that it never pans out quite the same as the forum discussion did... :-)

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

I don't know what happened, I can see that a situation could unfold where the rescue of the swimmer ended up in the main race where the group rescuing the boat could not reasonably have followed.

This! I could probably imagine half a dozen, more if a gun were pointed at my head. The reason I'm interested in finding out what did go down, however, is more because of the situations I haven't thought of.

[gasserra]

Well, this has been a most interesting thread, and I have nothing to add to the discussion of the events described. I do have some thoughts for Taran, though, based on his comments, especially this one:

Pat, I'm going for the 5 star for the qualification as I mean to start my own business & as for the time factor, well, I'm pretty passionate & full on when I set my mind to something.

You’re certainly correct to think that it’s possible to develop your kayaking knowledge and skills to a fairly high level in a relatively short period of time, and the 7 years you note elsewhere isn't really all that short anyway. Smart, athletic, committed young paddlers can certainly do so; I’ve seen it more than once.

The problem is that leadership is about more than knowledge and skills. There is a lot to be said about it, but in this context I’ll note just two points. First and foremost, leadership is a human interaction, drawing on attitudes and behaviors (on the leader’s part) that are independent of kayaking abilities. Second, in any setting, good leadership depends on good judgment, and good judgment is more than knowledge and skills. Basically, I good judgment is the ability to anticipate—to foresee what will happen in the physical environment, to foresee how people will behave, and to know how to act on that foresight to shape coming events. These two items—leadership attitudes /behaviors and good judgment—take a lot longer to develop than sport-specific knowledge and skills. It’s certainly true that older age isn’t always associated with good judgment, but the converse, young age & inexperience associated with good judgment, is a lot more rare: “You can’t put an old head on young shoulders”

Rather than looking at this assessment and thinking, “If I had just done this or that differently I would have passed—and I’ll do better in a couple of months”, and then scheduling another assessment quickly, you might be better served by attaching yourself as an assistant under the mentorship of an excellent high level coach/5* leader, and getting mentored experience leading all sorts of different people in different kayaking venues and conditions. You’ll learn to recognize personality patterns, anticipate responses, anticipate behaviors as conditions change, (including your own responses to different types of clients) and stay ahead of events rather than needing to use your paddling skills to try to manage bad situations. A couple of years of that might go a long way in achieving leadership excellence.

[TechnoEngineer]

Rather than looking at this assessment and thinking, “If I had just done this or that differently I would have passed—and I’ll do better in a couple of months”, and then scheduling another assessment quickly, you might be better served by attaching yourself as an assistant under the mentorship of an excellent high level coach/5* leader, and getting mentored experience leading all sorts of different people in different kayaking venues and conditions. You’ll learn to recognize personality patterns, anticipate responses, anticipate behaviors as conditions change, (including your own responses to different types of clients) and stay ahead of events rather than needing to use your paddling skills to try to manage bad situations. A couple of years of that might go a long way in achieving leadership excellence.

Totally agree :D

[Taran Tyla]

...can anyone explain why the guinea pig's boat couldn't be towed (with the tidal flow)towards the guinea pig rather than the hideous looking, weather shore rock landing from hell ..? Then, the group would have remained together, the guinea pig could have been put back in his boat...

This question also ocurred to me, having once been involved in an incident where a decision was taken to split swimmer and boat. I didn't post the question as I've seen how easy it is for questions, genuinely seeking to understand what happened, to be taken as criticism. I'm in no position to criticise - I wasn't there and only know a fraction of the facts - I'm sure there were reasons for the decision but at the moment I don't understand what they were and I'd like to learn from them.

Chris

I hope that I've made it clear that I have no interest in calling anyone an idiot over this incident. There are questions gnawing at me, however, which, as a curious soul and one who never presumes to know all there is to know about rescue scenarios, I'd love these questions to be answered. Several things happened and, I have no doubt that finding out a bit more detail has the potential to benefit, not just me directly, but many of the people subscribed to this forum, if and when we were to be presented with a similar situation.

I'll totally understand, Taran, if you are reluctant to go into any more detail but I'm going to ask them anyway, just on the offchance that there's a chance of getting this cluster**** of a thread away from "well I never did" and back to pumping Taran for the kind of info that may potentially save a life or two somewhere down the road.

1) For me this scenario becomes interesting at the point you mentioned the casualty, paddling a swamped boat. Standard practice (I think) would be removing the water from the boat before breaking the raft. What factors prevented this?

2) The swimmers boat was towed away from the victim. Was this before or after the two paddlers had committed to following him? At which point was it decided that either the two rescuers could not get the swimmer back to the boat and, that the remaining party should put in rather than follow the swimmer and rescuers. What were the factors that led to both these decisions. What was the dialog, etc?

3) The big one - you get a rewind, go back, do it again. Which (if any) steps might have led to a swimmer being reunited with his boat. Could this have led to a non helicoptery resolution? Pure speculation but, if you were faced with the same scenario all over again do you have a better plan?

Like I said, I'll understand if you don't want to discuss this in front of the jackals but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate hearing your tale. Maybe I am the only one. PM me if you prefer - I will not share any information given to me in confidence.

OK, I can answer these :S

1. OK, the swamped boat was my fault, I was keeping an eye on the casualty for obvious reasons. when he capsized I opted for a scoop rescue & to give him support. It all happened a bit fast so I don't remember If I did the scoop due to a failed x-rescue? I'd already rescued him once at this point & the events seem to blur into one.
I gave him my pump to pump out whilst I supported him but the waves just kept refilling his boat. We did do a rafted tow but the towers to line was rubbish & kept coming off his waist, secondly his caribiner on the tow was huge & managed to clip itself around my paddle shaft that was secured on deck. It was decided to free my paddle & unhook the tow & get him to paddle in.

2. Dont know the answer to this, I was asked to paddle into the beach & join the two Gunea pigs.

3. This is easier to answer on reflection. I wouldn't have taken the swimmer or would have changed location. At the time I didn't understand the decision not to stick with a rafted tow evan if it meant someone else taking up the tow with a towline that worked.

As I'm posting this as food for thought its worth dwelling on the caribiner & the type you have on your own tows. Having my paddle trapped onto the deck was bloody serious & so easily avoided. I have a small plastic crab on mine, a palm ocean & rather like this.

[Taran Tyla]

Rather than looking at this assessment and thinking, “If I had just done this or that differently I would have passed—and I’ll do better in a couple of months”, and then scheduling another assessment quickly, you might be better served by attaching yourself as an assistant under the mentorship of an excellent high level coach/5* leader, and getting mentored experience leading all sorts of different people in different kayaking venues and conditions. You’ll learn to recognize personality patterns, anticipate responses, anticipate behaviors as conditions change, (including your own responses to different types of clients) and stay ahead of events rather than needing to use your paddling skills to try to manage bad situations. A couple of years of that might go a long way in achieving leadership excellence.

Totally agree :D

Me too, thanks for posting ;D

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

LOL - that crab around the paddle thing sounds like one of those one in a million shots that would make me think "it's just not my bloody day". Do you mean it clipped a hold of your split or the actual paddle you were using, which was under the decklines?

How were you clipped? (line on both bows, only on casualty's boat, dogleash, etc) Would an alternative method have worked better?

When the casualties boat kept refilling was his spraydeck not on? Waist tube under PFD or similar preventing pumping with it in place, perhaps? Might be worth looking at this and coming up with some workarounds, since the "pumps are rubbish" argument is generally based on open cockpit attempts which, as you'd expect, are totally pants in breaking wave conditions.

Re: the Palm plastic clip - I was dubious about this when I first bought it but loved the bag and had decided I'd test it out a few times and then prolly replace with a metal one. Having used it a few times I'm scratching my head wondering if metal clips have any place at all on a highly scratchable fibreglass kayak.

[MikeB]

Lots of "learning" there - Taran, I wonder if you feel able to share why it was that you didn't pass? Naturally this might be somethign you'd prefer to keep private which would be totallly understandable.

I would encourage the Provider to share the outcome of his review if/as/when he feels able to do so, again as a learning experience for everyone. I would also hope that any resultant feedback was constructive and positive. Mike.

[JonC]

Good bit of feedback Taran.

Conditions off the rocky beach looked pretty untidy, and presumably conditions were the same when trying to rescue the swimmer. Not an easy situation to deal with, especially once the swimmer is seperated from his own boat.

Jon C

Having a swimmer in that situation must have been absolute nightmare. Once there are broken wave patterns and breaking waves, getting a swimmer back into the boat and then drying the boat out is blooming challenging.

Everything has to go right, and any weakness in the system (eg an oversize crab that catches onto the rescuer's paddle) is blown way out of normal proportions.

Good work again Tarran: I think you've covered the whole situation now, from the overall picture right down the nitty gritty of how the group got seperated.

Jon C

[Graham T]

Omitted from my first post is a thanks to you Taran for sharing so openly and honestly.
A leader is prepared to take responsibility as in the swamped boat was my fault.
Reflection which many do not do is a sign of some maturity and how we learn. As you have and are reflecting you will learn and have gained the experience from it that you know the limitations and some possible short falls of what may happen, including when we need our equipment to work it better had, and that an item not tested in earnest may not work as needed when the time comes.

I hope that you are able to debrief with those taking the assessment as to why decisions were taken, what went wrong and why and what if anything you would do differently next time.

Glad it was not me trying to either x rescue or scoop the swimmer in those conditions well done for that.

For any one to answer given the kayak was swamped would a second kayak rafting opposite Taran provide protection from further waves filling the cockpit sufficient to pump it out ?.
I am also surprised a second tow was not employed as needed to keep the rescued and rescuer away from the rocks but then I was not there and don't know what was in the leaders mind

[Taran Tyla]

LOL - that crab around the paddle thing sounds like one of those one in a million shots that would make me think "it's just not my bloody day". Do you mean it clipped a hold of your split or the actual paddle you were using, which was under the decklines?

How were you clipped? (line on both bows, only on casualty's boat, dogleash, etc) Would an alternative method have worked better?

When the casualties boat kept refilling was his spraydeck not on? Waist tube under PFD or similar preventing pumping with it in place, perhaps? Might be worth looking at this and coming up with some workarounds, since the "pumps are rubbish" argument is generally based on open cockpit attempts which, as you'd expect, are totally pants in breaking wave conditions.

Re: the Palm plastic clip - I was dubious about this when I first bought it but loved the bag and had decided I'd test it out a few times and then prolly replace with a metal one. Having used it a few times I'm scratching my head wondering if metal clips have any place at all on a highly scratchable fibreglass kayak.

Yep, the crab was right around my main paddle shaft. I have a bit of hose with a bungee through it near the front that I use as a paddle park during rescues. Not anyones fault this, just one of those things to review afterwards. The following day the guy with the dodgy tow line asked to borrow one for the day so a useful lesson was learnt there.

The standard clipping in method was used though thinking about it now, it was the wrong way around? the line was under the casualties deck line & clipped onto mine (whoops).

The deck was open when pumping, I find to put the pump through the skirt you would need to undo the PFD, no way I was suggesting that :S

For any one to answer given the kayak was swamped would a second kayak rafting opposite Taran provide protection from further waves filling the cockpit sufficient to pump it out ?.

I like that idea, might have worked. I was on the landward side so maybe if I was on the other side that would have helped too?

[seylan]

I'd like to add my thanks to Taran for posting and particularly for continuing to come back and reply in a really reasonable and thoughtful manner when I'm sure at times all he wanted to do was smash his computer :o)

[Jim]

Hmm, kit crossover? - sounds like it might have been one of those large gape carabiners designed especially for use in whitewater situations so they can be clipped around a paddle shaft to tow or retrieve a paddle, and also to accommodate the wide range of often solid end loops used on more serious whitewater boats to act as a suitable anchor point to haul the boat off a pin. Waist tows equipped like this are favoured by some WW paddlers....

A good learning point, I just made myself a short contact tow using a WW cowtail and one of those carabiners!

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

The standard clipping in method was used though thinking about it now, it was the wrong way around? the line was under the casualties deck line & clipped onto mine (whoops).

I've always viewed clipping two boats together as being something you do when it's two noobs that you're towing. If you clip onto the victim's boat only, the support paddler has options available. Another alternative we employed recently to great effect is to raft up in a contact tow setup. Support paddler is a lot more useful in this scenario, especially in a following sea where you can surf the raft much easier and also back off to avoid t-boning the tower.

The deck was open when pumping, I find to put the pump through the skirt you would need to undo the PFD, no way I was suggesting that :S

Have a muck about with this, some decks don't make it easy for you but with a lot of them it's a simple case of yanking the tube down below the PFD.

[ArnoG]

I've always viewed clipping two boats together as being something you do when it's two noobs that you're towing. If you clip onto the victim's boat only, the support paddler has options available. Another alternative we employed recently to great effect is to raft up in a contact tow setup.

I've used the method suggested by Taran here. The idea is to pass the line under the support paddler's decklines and clip it to the casualty's. That allows the support guy to be able to let go of the raft if (s)he needs both hand to help the casualty while at the same time being able to push himself along to the casualty's bow to release the tow if needed. That implies though that there no hindrance (e.g. float) on the first 3m or so of the tow line so that it can run under the support boat's decklines.
Does that make sense?
A.-

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Makes perfect sense. I've seen it demonstrated, I've tried it out, all the usual stuff. I just didn't see any potential advantages that outweighed the annoyance factor of having to release myself from the raft. I can't think of any specific scenarios where it would cause a major problem but it's usually the ones you haven't thought of that bite you on the bum. My gut tells me if I suddenly need to do something that involves breaking the raft, seconds lost fiddling about with a tow clip might be the difference between success and failure.

Gordon Brown's doglead tow struck me as a nice spin but releasing that removes the line from both boats. I'm wondering now if hooking the crab onto the victims boat and the doglead from there onto the rescuer's boat might be worth looking into. That way , when you release the doglead, the casualty is still under tow.

[Simon Willis]

Hi Kayaks'N'Beer

I'm wondering now if hooking the crab onto the victims boat and the doglead from there onto the rescuer's boat might be worth looking into. That way , when you release the doglead, the casualty is still under tow.

This is what Gordon describes in the first set up of the Dog Lead Tow on the DVD. I called it 'Dog Lead - 1' as opposed to 'Dog Lead -2' where both boats are released from the system. (8mins into Distance Towing session)

Between the two there's a difference as to which of the assistant's deck lines you pass the dog lead through.

S

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Hi Kayaks'N'Beer

I'm wondering now if hooking the crab onto the victims boat and the doglead from there onto the rescuer's boat might be worth looking into. That way , when you release the doglead, the casualty is still under tow.

This is what Gordon describes in the first set up of the Dog Lead Tow on the DVD. I called it 'Dog Lead - 1' as opposed to 'Dog Lead -2' where both boats are released from the system. (8mins into Distance Towing session)

Between the two there's a difference as to which of the assistant's deck lines you pass the dog lead through.

S

I stand corrected, Simon, thanks. One of these days I'm going to save up enough pennies for a fully functioning memory!

[Simon Willis]

(I had to get out the DVD and check!)
s

[Taran Tyla]

I'd like to add my thanks to Taran for posting and particularly for continuing to come back and reply in a really reasonable and thoughtful manner when I'm sure at times all he wanted to do was smash his computer :o)

PMSL, thanks for that comment but I've a Mac Book Pro, so that would be foolish & costly ;D

[Taran Tyla]

Hi Kayaks'N'Beer

I'm wondering now if hooking the crab onto the victims boat and the doglead from there onto the rescuer's boat might be worth looking into. That way , when you release the doglead, the casualty is still under tow.

This is what Gordon describes in the first set up of the Dog Lead Tow on the DVD. I called it 'Dog Lead - 1' as opposed to 'Dog Lead -2' where both boats are released from the system. (8mins into Distance Towing session)

Between the two there's a difference as to which of the assistant's deck lines you pass the dog lead through.

S

I've got the DVD & was going to buy a dog lead for the assessment but evan a spare tenner is hard to find at the moment :(
It does look a bloody good way off doing it though, I particularly like the fact that the boats run parallel as opposed to pinching together at the front. Should make towing a raft much easier.
Can highly recommend the DVD :)

[Oarsome]

Before I go out, I need to comment on Kayakandbeer's comment that I don't know what I'm talking about, because I transcribed what Taran said as "if we had been closer to shore". To me, it doesn't matter one bit. Some places, it's safer closer to shore, other places it isn't. Now, how on earth does that in any way take away from the point that Taran was using the argument "if only xxx, then it would all have been easier"?

Yeah, I get it, a rowing boat going the same places as your kayaks can't possibly give one any experience that can be transferred to kayaking. Leadership? No, giving that my boat isn't a kayak, thus I must be blank when it comes to leadership and responsibility.

As for whether or not I go out alone or in groups: I prefer alone, given that I trust very few people for safety, and that I can power against wind a tad better than most kayakers. Also, I prefer not having to rescue fallen out kayakers, but if it happened, they could clamper on from the stern while I balanced the boat, grab the rigger and lay low. (I can do that with noone in the boat).

This thread have fortified my view that many kayakers are so inbred (not literally, of course), that they have a hard time coping with anything other than what they're taught and seemingly can't think for themselves. Instead, they have the old fall-back of "Hey, noone but a kayaker - preferably only the persons involved - could ever have any valid opinion". No wonder more and more people get in trouble with their kayaks.

[bobt]

As for whether or not I go out alone or in groups: I prefer alone,

I can see this as something of a necessity on your part.

[soundoftheseagull]

This thread have fortified my view that many kayakers are so inbred (not literally, of course), that they have a hard time coping with anything other than what they're taught and seemingly can't think for themselves. Instead, they have the old fall-back of "Hey, noone but a kayaker - preferably only the persons involved - could ever have any valid opinion". No wonder more and more people get in trouble with their kayaks.

I have stayed away from similar posts for me it’s a combination of inexperience combined with not tagging along with many for the sake of it.
The common theme though with your self is your ability to demonstrate the fact that you are a complete and utter knob head.

[Debbie]

Taran, thank you so much for openly sharing your experiences. You were 100% right in calling the Coast Guard. Some of us get concerned when we feel an incident is being covered up and then bragged about as if nothing happened. But with your honest discussions, I'm sure more lessons will have been learned that I could ever list myself. Your frankness has truly contributed to getting other paddlers thinking about how to recover from seemingly unrecoverable situations. It has also promoted safety in the sea kayaking community, which is what this website is all about. Thanks again.

Regards,
Debbie

[Taran Tyla]

Taran, thank you so much for openly sharing your experiences. You were 100% right in calling the Coast Guard. Some of us get concerned when we feel an incident is being covered up and then bragged about as if nothing happened. But with your honest discussions, I'm sure more lessons will have been learned that I could ever list myself. Your frankness has truly contributed to getting other paddlers thinking about how to recover from seemingly unrecoverable situations. It has also promoted safety in the sea kayaking community, which is what this website is all about. Thanks again.

Regards,
Debbie

Thanks Debbie, that means a lot. I posted on this subject as I believed there were lessons we could all learn from it though at times I wished I'd kept my mouth shut & stayed anonymous.
I have learn't a lot from this, not only on reflection but from the more helpful comments on the forum that I really appreciate, theres a wealth of experience out there just waiting to be tapped.

Cheers, Taran...

[Mark R]

Coaches are accountable to the Health and Safety at Work Act just like any other profession.

Are coaches obliged to report incidents to the HSE?

Thanks,

[enjoyer]

Coaches are accountable to the Health and Safety at Work Act just like any other profession.

Are coaches obliged to report incidents to the HSE?

Thanks,

I believe they do in principle, however in practice this episode doesn't fall into a defined category. No one was injured and it is not categorised as a "near miss" for HSE reporting purposes.

As my memory is based on potentially out of date experience I double checked here...
http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/what-must-i-report.htm

As I am posting may I also thank Taran for such an informative thread.

[Mark R]

Thanks for that link/ list. Dismayingly irrelevant to outdoor/ sports scenarios, isn't it?

If that is indeed the main (only?) mechanism for reviewing incidents and accidents in professional coaching situations, I'd have to be concerned... ???

[enjoyer]

I guess the presumption is that organisations have their own practices and procedures for accident investigation.

(Such procedures wouldn't only cover incidents involving professionals).