Valley, NDK, TRace, Rockpool, P&H- Strongest Lineup Overall?

[angleseykayaker]

Hi all,

I'm working very hard in North West Wales to try and introduce youngsters to sea kayaking as a viable alternative. I have formed a club and have a couple of trained-up volunteers, and have recently secured a grant from Sport Wales to increase engagement by under 18s into sea kayaking specifically. I myself am considered a 'youngster' in the sea kayaking world (I'm 27 and hold the 4* Sea Kayak Leader Award) and I understand the barriers that exist for younger paddlers to get involved. The fantastic achievements of a good crop of current paddlers within the sea kayaking community is going a long way to captivating younger paddlers, especially the more exciting stuff done in tideraces, overfalls and the like. I feel that a number of young paddlers are able to see that sea kayaking can give them the same (if not more in my opinion) excitement as river / play / freestyle boating offers. Finances and transport are still major barriers though, but a trailer full of boats and a couple of enthusiastic volunteers is making a difference. The company I work for have also been helping a number of community clubs locally to develop sea kayaking 'arms' on the side of 'normal' canoe and kayak clubs specifically to engage with paddlers who would like to try something different or provide an exit route for paddlers who would like to switch discipline / gain further training in sea kayaking.

Actually answering the thread's original question though - P&H really do volume selling really well and have been around for a long time, and also offer shorter lead times than most other manufacturers (I paddled a plastic Capella up until last year). We can't ignore the impact Tahe are having on the market though. I paddle a Greenlander most of the time now (I'm a Greenland-style paddler, sponsored by AngleseyStick.com) and have also paddled a number of their other boats. In terms of really high quality and attention to detail though, you can't get any better than Rockpool in my opinion. You'll never find a slightly rough patch of glass, or a dollop of filler in the bottom of a hatch (like in my Tahe). NDK boats have been around forever, and are tried and tested. I recently paddled a Romany surf for a couple of days and really enjoyed it.

A fairly recent trend by SK manufacturers seems to be having very extensive ranges of kayaks. This poses a significant problem to retailers, as stocking 8 boats from 3 manufacturers not only involves a substantial investment of money, it also means a lot of space is required to display or store the boats, especially if they're available as demo boats too. However, it is really exciting that sea kayaking is really taking off in terms of popularity, and that more and more people are getting involved.

[bobt]

Do you guys get these over in the UK? I'm thinking about one of the smaller models for the kids but not sure how good a make they are. My local supplier stocks them and they look good. He is having a demo day next week so I'll get out in some. Not sure how they would compare to the UK makes?

http://www.wildernesssystems.com/pages/index/homepage

Bob

[dpround]

I think there is a huge gap in the market at present - between Ocean Kayak's offerings and closed cockpit sea kayaks. OK's offerings are good for what they are intended, but the hull forms really do not respond well to anything fancy and you really would not want to be on one if it got really rough. Sea kayaks are all scary closed cockpits. It is certainly possible to take a sea kayak hull and graft on a SOT deck with only a slight compromise in performance, it really puzzles me that none of the big brands has done it.

David

[carpyken]

I think there is a huge gap in the market at present - between Ocean Kayak's offerings and closed cockpit sea kayaks. OK's offerings are good for what they are intended, but the hull forms really do not respond well to anything fancy and you really would not want to be on one if it got really rough. Sea kayaks are all scary closed cockpits. It is certainly possible to take a sea kayak hull and graft on a SOT deck with only a slight compromise in performance, it really puzzles me that none of the big brands has done it.

David

A few mates paddle these http://kayakuk.com/shop/shop.php?action=full&id=35

http://www.kayakuk.com/product_uploads/ ... inal_1.jpg

[Mark R]

I understand that these folk outsell all of the others by a country mile...

http://www.oceankayak.com/

And not a true sea kayak in the bunch...

Says who? There are far more folk paddling these around our shores, making GRP long boats the geeky 'fringe' sea kayaks. And if anyone wants to argue that 'true' sea kayakers also possess some kind of special wisdom or whatever, I could post up more than a few headlines which undermine that comfortable assumption...

No, I'm not especially into the SOT thing. But to pretend they don't exist (and don't utterly dominate the market) is folly.

[ArnoG]

This looks interesting when looking at SOT that may behave a bit better than the basic beach toy

http://rtmkayaks.com/products/sit-on-top/disco

A.-

[nickcrowhurst]

Several of the Tsunami Rangers use specialized SOTs. 'Nuff said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fftJUKvcBA

Nick.

[Jim]

It is certainly possible to take a sea kayak hull and graft on a SOT deck with only a slight compromise in performance, it really puzzles me that none of the big brands has done it.

David

It depends whether you know the brand or not, some would say that this kind of thing has no compromise in performance compared to a sea kayak, in fact most people in the know would say they have more performance.....

They are not the only brand, but are one you are likely to know as a kayaker, since they also make closed cockpit kayaks and their paddle range has been highly praised here over the last few years....

However, they don't appeal to the masses the same way the likes of Ocean Kayaks products do.

The only problem I have with SOT paddlers, is that they don't wave back when you pass them on the road - I guess it's just because they aren't part of our weird culture, just normal people.

[MikeB]

No, I'm not especially into the SOT thing. But to pretend they don't exist (and don't utterly dominate the market) is folly.

That they dominate the casual / fun end of paddling (often as beach toys and/or on salt water) really isnt an argument saying they dominate the world of sea kayaking. I fully accept there are plenty of folk using them as fishing platforms. That still doesnt make them sea kayaks. That some people have used them as sea kayaks, and done some meaningful trips on them, still doesnt make them sea kayaks. I know of someone who take a stand-up paddle board thing from Appin to Mull - that doesnt make him a sea kayaker though. Yes, they exist, and they may dominate the market, which isn't a bad thing, but they still aren't sea kayaks. Mike.

[Mark R]

My so-called 'true' sea kayak is predominantly used for casual stuff and indeed (whisper it) fun. It also sees significant amount of use as a beach toy. I do hope that this is okay.

Ocean Kayak totally dominate the UK sea kayak market. Now you could respond that they don't count because they don't measure up to a particular - demonstrably niche - perception of what a sea kayak is, or you could ask why their kayaks dominate and why paddlers choose their models more than anyone else's. I should imagine the answer to the latter question deserves a more thoughtful answer than, 'because they are stupid/ wrong'.

[MikeB]

The reason is quite simple - it's becasue they are cheap and easy to buy and easy to use, often with inexpensive supporting kit. We, on the other hand, like to endow our sport with skill and mystique. That the sport requires skill is a no-brainer - that we endow it with mystique, use expensive kit as part of it, and require to work a little at it to get the best of it is, of course, part of why we do it.

Which is part of what makes sea kayaking, sea kayaking. Mike.

[Mark R]

People choose Ocean Kayaks' products more than any other because they lack skill and don't want a sense of mystique? Seriously, not being facetious...I don't get what you are trying to say.

[No Kayak]

My so-called 'true' sea kayak is predominantly used for casual stuff and indeed (whisper it) fun. It also sees significant amount of use as a beach toy. I do hope that this is okay.

Ocean Kayak totally dominate the UK sea kayak market. Now you could respond that they don't count because they don't measure up to a particular - demonstrably niche - perception of what a sea kayak is, or you could ask why their kayaks dominate and why paddlers choose their models more than anyone else's. I should imagine the answer to the latter question deserves a more thoughtful answer than, 'because they are stupid/ wrong'.

I would imagine it's because Ocean Kayaks are designed and produced in a such a way that they are affordable (relatively speaking), easy to paddle relative to a 'sea kayak' and fulfil a more recreational role than the sea kayaks typically discussed on this forum. Someone looking for a recreational kayak to use on the sea can afford one, find it easy to stay in or on and it's design lends itself to pottering about without the baggage required when becoming a dedicated sea kayaker.

It's no surprise that the market for recreational kayaks is larger than that for highly specialised ones produced to far more exacting specifications at a much higher cost.

Ocean Kayaks are not necessarily aiming for the same customers as the brands listed in the title of this thread, any more than assuming every driver on the motorway is a potential Caterham or Ducati buyer.

[Mark R]

An interesting exercise is to compare the images and marketing style of these various companies...

http://www.tahemarine.com/

http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/

http://www.rockpoolkayaks.com/

http://www.oceankayak.com/

http://www.tideraceseakayaks.com/

http://www.phseakayaks.com/

http://www.venturekayaks.com/

...etc etc.

I haven't been sea kayaking before and know nothing about it, but I fancy getting a kayak to explore and enjoy the coastal environment. Which style of boat/ paddling looks most appealing? Which marketing approaches sell me on the sport best? Which leave me cold?

[ian johnston]

My so-called 'true' sea kayak is predominantly used for casual stuff and indeed (whisper it) fun. It also sees significant amount of use as a beach toy. I do hope that this is okay.

Ocean Kayak totally dominate the UK sea kayak market. Now you could respond that they don't count because they don't measure up to a particular - demonstrably niche - perception of what a sea kayak is, or you could ask why their kayaks dominate and why paddlers choose their models more than anyone else's. I should imagine the answer to the latter question deserves a more thoughtful answer than, 'because they are stupid/ wrong'.

Sorry Mark, I must have missed something here. Where exactly did Mike say (or intimate) that Ocean Kayak products or SOT's in general are either stupid or wrong?

Another derailed thread? And of course it's okay to have fun, whatever one paddles..... isn't that the whole point?

Regards

Ian

[Mark R]

Where exactly did Mike say (or intimate) that Ocean Kayak products or SOT's in general are either stupid or wrong?

I wasn't aware I'd said that he did.

[Mark R]

As for derailed? Well, we're discussing who has the 'strongest line-up overall'. If we're measuring that by market share/ volume sales/ popularity/ ubiquity, well...I've given you the definitive answer.

[No Kayak]

Most people, assuming they haven't paddled before, are likely to enter from the recreational end, as the commitment in terms of cost, time and skill is lower. To the person on the street, a £500 plastic sit on top is an expensive recreational toy.

The desire and commitment to put in time and cost comes with more knowledge.

One thing you will notice with Ocean Kayaks and the Sea Kayak manufacturers, is there's little overlap of product (if any). That's no mistake, as Johnson do not want Ocean to compete with the proper sea kayak brands they wish to promote- in the same way Pyranha go from Feel Free, to Venture, to P&H. It caters for the varying price points and commitment levels.

Someone looking at Ocean Kayak's site with interest is not going to be deciding between their products and that of Rockpool/Valley/SKUK etc. There is no cross-over or comparison, they're different marketplaces. If I wanted a Transit van, I wouldn't find any product on http://www.ferrari.com that suited my purpose, yet they both use the roads.

Your only point seems to be that both products are paddled on the sea. Other than that, I'm wondering what you're trying to say in the context of this thread?

[MikeB]

People choose Ocean Kayaks' products more than any other because they lack skill and don't want a sense of mystique? Seriously, not being facetious...I don't get what you are trying to say.

No, I didnt say that. That people choose something like a SoT has more to do with the ease in which they can purchase an affordable product and take it on the water without even having to worry about that nasty capsize drill thing.

£500 or so will buy an Ocean Kayaks Venus. Throw in a semi decent paddle and a BA for another £100 and you're on the water playing in the sea.

Oxford Dictionaries defines a kayak as "a canoe of a type used originally by the Inuit, made of a light frame with a watertight covering having a small opening in the top to sit in." That's not a SoT "kayak". That the marketing folk have used the word kayak in the context of a SoT is more about marketing than anything else.

It doesnt make them "bad things", anymore than taking a WW playboat out to play in the surf is a "bad thing". That playboat is, however, in no way a sea kayak in that context. It's still a WW playboat.

I would imagine it's because Ocean Kayaks are designed and produced in a such a way that they are affordable (relatively speaking), easy to paddle relative to a 'sea kayak' and fulfil a more recreational role than the sea kayaks typically discussed on this forum. Someone looking for a recreational kayak to use on the sea can afford one, find it easy to stay in or on and it's design lends itself to pottering about without the baggage required when becoming a dedicated sea kayaker.

It's no surprise that the market for recreational kayaks is larger than that for highly specialised ones produced to far more exacting specifications at a much higher cost.

Yep. On both counts.

[Mark R]

I'm wondering what you're trying to say in the context of this thread?

We've crossposted - I refer you to my post directly above.

I don't buy the argument that there are true sea kayaks, and there are beach toys. They are all sea kayaks, and attempts to suggest that only one (niche, specialist) kind of sea kayak 'counts' strike me as somewhat odd. Yes, I'm part of that niche...but I do notice other paddlers out on the water too. They exist.

[MikeB]

An interesting exercise is to compare the images and marketing style of these various companies...

http://www.tahemarine.com/

http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/

http://www.rockpoolkayaks.com/

http://www.oceankayak.com/

http://www.tideraceseakayaks.com/

http://www.phseakayaks.com/

http://www.venturekayaks.com/

...etc etc.

I haven't been sea kayaking before and know nothing about it, but I fancy getting a kayak to explore and enjoy the coastal environment. Which style of boat/ paddling looks most appealing? Which marketing approaches sell me on the sport best? Which leave me cold?

As your interest lies in having a bit of fun, I'd recommend you buy a SoT. Later, if you like it, you can sell the SoT and buy a sea kayak. Mike.

[andyE]

A kayak is a kayak, no matter what you paddle. They all need the same skill set to get from A to B. In fact the skills are transferable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E34aiUnl-4Q

[No Kayak]

I'm wondering what you're trying to say in the context of this thread?

We've crossposted - I refer you to my post directly above.

I don't buy the argument that there are true sea kayaks, and there are beach toys. They are all sea kayaks, and attempts to suggest that only one (niche, specialist) kind of sea kayak 'counts' strike me as somewhat odd. Yes, I'm part of that niche...but I do notice other paddlers out on the water too. They exist.

If that's your point, it's self defeating. Ocean Kayaks have no better scope in their portfolio than P&H or Valley have in theirs. One is limited to recreational craft of many varieties and the others stick to sea kayaks in theirs. This is further evidenced by the fact Johnson purposely split their sea craft offering into Ocean and Necky. Someone interested by a Necky product is unlikely to be considering it against an Ocean one.

You might as well argue that Nike have a better range of trainers than Schweppes have fizzy drinks. They're different things altogether.

[Mark R]

Some very interesting attitudes and assumptions here about our sport, some of them not very positive or welcoming.

If we take it as a given that sea kayaking is wholly and exclusively about middle aged men trying to escape civilisation, then those attitudes are just fine and correct.

However, I think that the manufacturers (the savvy ones, anyway) realise that the sport is rather bigger and wider than that niche. If you look at the sites I suggested, you'll receive a much more interesting/ diverse range of images and messages...and they by no means simply boil down to, 'old fashioned sea kayaks=wilderness, SOTs=kids on beaches'.

[Mark R]

Someone interested by a Necky product is unlikely to be considering it against an Ocean one.

You might as well argue that Nike have a better range of trainers than Schweppes have fizzy drinks. They're different things altogether.

The problem is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you choose to believe that different kinds of sea kayaking are mutually co-exclusive - or even decide arbitrarily that one 'is' sea kayaking and one 'isn't' - then you have created or sustained an artificial situation. Those who buy SOTS or recreational kayaks will stay - blissfully ignorant - in that (hugely popular) niche, those who paddle decked GRP boats will do the same.

More needs to be done to bridge the gap and remove ignorance, prejudice and exclusivity. This can be done by coaches, manufacturers and (ahem) us, the media. PH/ Pyranha are onto something, with their Venture Kayaks line...look at the natural progression/ wide spectrum of this range - http://www.venturekayaks.com . The only thing I don't really get is why they don't go the whole hog and advertise/ promote it alongside their PH boats.

http://www.venturekayaks.com/index.php

[MikeB]

This is Boris. He's sitting on a sea kayak. He isn't a sea kayaker, and never will be.

That manufacturers aim different products at different markets is obvious. VAG market the Audi range in a very different way to their Seat brands. That different products get a variety of people paddling is without doubt a good thing.

[MarineMammal]

No, I'm not especially into the SOT thing. But to pretend they don't exist (and don't utterly dominate the market) is folly.

Eh? Why does no one ever seemingly read what I write? From the page of comments previous:

Is it a good idea to 'go to the market', whatever/wherever it may be?, such as 'conventional' sit-on-tops (i.e. not skis) and shorter 'transitional'/day-tourer boats? Is it sheer heresy/infamy for the legendary British brands to do this? P&H's Venture line already does, but we note that those boats are not branded 'P&H'.

The classic trade-off is, of course, potentially more sales vs watering down your brand. Which is the more important consideration?

So as you can see Mark, I'm more than fully aware of SOTs' existence, and the fact that they're doing very well in the market.

The real folly was your assumption otherwise, unless you were addressing everyone here as a whole and/or being cautionary.
Cheers.

...

[Mark R]

My folly comment was a response to your prejudice that there is such a thing as a 'true' sea kayak.

[Aled]

It is certainly possible to take a sea kayak hull and graft on a SOT deck with only a slight compromise in performance, it really puzzles me that none of the big brands has done it.

David, I've looked at this and IMHO there are some big compromises to be made. The biggest factor in determining whether a craft is a SOT or a surfski is seat height. SOTs spend their time paddling forward slowly or mostly stationary (fishing etc) - to stop the paddler from getting a very wet and cold bottom the SOT seats are elevated so that the bottom of the seat pan is above the waterline, splashed water drains out through the scuppers. Sitting above the waterline is inherently unstable so SOTs tend to be/have to be wide and have a lot of buoyancy at the sides. Most SOTs are designed for ease of use for the non-technical paddler (huge generalisations found here, but it's probably true) and provide a stable and reassuring platform, edging control is not usually factored into the design, massive initial and secondary stability is preferred by most manufacturers.

Surfskis have their seats below the waterline, just like our traditional touring seakayaks. Sit still on a surfski and the water comes flooding in through the cockpit drain (unless you have the closable type) once you paddle at speed, approx 5kn on my Epic V10S, the venturi effect of the drain slowly sucks out the water from the cockpit. By sitting low in the boat, stability is maximised (Jim, fancy explaining "GM"?) and this allows surfskis to be narrow and fast (6-7kn) - but very wet. Wetter still when paddling in chop/waves as seawater sloshes in over the cockpit sides. Wind-chill on the lower torso and legs is also a big factor when paddling skis in winter.

If you take a typical touring seakayak and stick a surfski cockpit on it, e.g. a Tiderace Xcite with an all-in mass of 105kg, the base of the seat pan would be 8.5cm under the waterline. Paddling any touring seakayak all day at 5kn would be hard work, most touring seakayaks are paddled about at 3-4kn, so a typical surfski cockpit drain would be ineffective in this situation. You would end up sitting in a deep puddle of cold water all day long - challenging even for the newest GoreTex pants and Merino wool undies! Raising the Xcite's seat pan above the waterline would make it impossibly unstable.

You could compromise, possibly sit highish in a shallow puddle of water and have a wideish boat (62cm+). IMHO this would be fine for sporty recreational use, but expect to paddle at a leisurely pace in calm water compared to your traditional touring seakayaks.

[Aled]

(many experimental Air Force and NASA planes begin with an 'X' designation, like the X-15 or X-33)

For the record... We initially considered using the 'X' designation. The X-1 would be the fast boat series (inspired by the Bell X-1, some of this imagery lives on in the Pace18 logo), X-2 for the expedition boats, X-3 for the touring/day boats and X-4 for the play boats. The 'X' thing stuck, but the names became a little more descriptive.