St David's rescue^

[CCL]

Taran, Great report and pictures :) I've found your report very thought provoking for a number of reasons - thank you.

Firstly, I have very fond memories of St Davids Head after paddling in the area for over 20years - no, I'm not local but you can imagine, reading a report about a stretch of coastline that I know and love is so much more interesting!

Secondly, my own experience of St Davids Head has not always been blue sky and mirror seas.

A couple of years ago, when I paddled the Welsh coastline on my own (a virgin solo multiday trip), St Davids Head caused me more than a little anxiety.

The previous evening, I landed at Porth Melgan to camp and was sufficiently concerned with the weather to climb up to the headland at 01.00 to get the weather update....from memory, N/NW 6-7, gusting 8....not comfy for sure. After not much sleeping, I left the beach at about 6am, to see if it might be possible to get round the headland at the start of the flood and at least get to Porthgain.

No way, I paddled to the end of the headland by which time the waves/haystacks and gusts of wind became real....for some idiot reason, I even contemplated going for it for about 10 minutes whilst in the lee of the wind.

Common sense prevailed thankfully and at about 7.30am, I was dragging my boat up the beach at Porthsele - resigned to a day off paddling and a very decent shower at Pencarnan Farm.

My St Davids Head drama was not over though - after a whole day of drying kit, coffee at Whitesands, dinner with friends who live locally and watching the sea exploding over the headland through Richard's telescope (http://seakayak-porthsele.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/should-we-stay-or-should-we-go-30082010.html), I went for it the next morning - this time with Richard who kindly offered his company as far as Fishguard.

A quick check between us just before the headland and all was good to go. The sea was still pretty lumpy and the F5-6 has not yet become F2-3 as forecast but that could not explain why I was having a ridiculous problem making progress. I seemed to be in a back eddy (which I knew about) but it was never this strong before....I was seriously thinking that I would have to give up....only after battling on for what seemed an age, and breaking out of any flow past the headland, did I discover the problem. My mapcase had fallen in the water and was acting like a drogue! I had never used a drogue before but after that struggle, I can recommend one as long as it is used in the correct circumstances!

The rest of the day and the trip was wonderful. :)

Key lessons for me:
1. no prizes for heroics - on reflection, I think if I had 'gone for it' instead of turning downwind and heading for porthsele beach for 24 hours, I might not be writing about this at all
2. check how secure your 'desk' is. The sea/wind conditions meant that I was concentrating on paddling/getting round the headland - I didn't notice my mapcase slip out from under the desk elastic to be reinvented as a drogue
3. escape routes - not that many good options past the headland - Abereiddy (I was with a TYF friend a few years previously when his glass boat became a casualty of a tough landing at high-ish water.) and then Porthgain. It's quite a way to Porthgain if you are not having fun! This was a factor in my decison making the previous day as well.
4. expect the unexpected :0

Taran - I'd be really interested to know what your key lessons were?

Many thanks and very good luck in your pursuit of 5*. I'm fairly convinced I wouldn't pass an assessment myself!

Claire

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Pat, I'm going for the 5 star for the qualification as I mean to start my own business

I'm pretty sure this is what Pat is getting at. I've never bothered with star gradings, mainly because they're expensive and, by the time I even heard of them, I'd been paddling 20-odd years. However, I've met plenty 4* 'leaders' whom, in my opinion, were fresh faced nuggets, just about ready to go out and learn how to kayak. I realise 5* is a pretty big jump from 4* but, at the same time, all it is is a bunch of exercises and classroom stuff. It is no substitute for experience.

I've never been on the water with you so I wouldn't presume to pass judgement on your ability or lack thereof but I can understand where Pat is coming from. Slow down, take your time, chill out. Get some seat time behind you before you think about going into business. Put yourself in the position of any prospective customer who's considering indulging in any "assumed risk" activity. Would you choose the guy who passed his exams in the space of a couple of years or the guy with the same qualifications who's been doing the activity half his life?

[Taran Tyla]

Douglas, where as you've brought up some valid points but its only fair to assume an element of risk with sea kayaking & the 5 star assessment is not known to be a gentle paddle, the guy swimming would have been aware of this before hand & I don't think the conditions were that bad, it was very lively, yes but within what could be expected.
It was a real incident, yes, that was obvious as soon as he went over near the headland but it was kept from getting out of control. Don't forget that the swimmer did have the option of shimmying up the rocks but chose not to do this, which he was entitled to do.

[Taran Tyla]

Pat, I'm going for the 5 star for the qualification as I mean to start my own business

I'm pretty sure this is what Pat is getting at. I've never bothered with star gradings, mainly because they're expensive and, by the time I even heard of them, I'd been paddling 20-odd years. However, I've met plenty 4* 'leaders' whom, in my opinion, were fresh faced nuggets, just about ready to go out and learn how to kayak. I realise 5* is a pretty big jump from 4* but, at the same time, all it is is a bunch of exercises and classroom stuff. It is no substitute for experience.

I've never been on the water with you so I wouldn't presume to pass judgement on your ability or lack thereof but I can understand where Pat is coming from. Slow down, take your time, chill out. Get some seat time behind you before you think about going into business. Put yourself in the position of any prospective customer who's considering indulging in any "assumed risk" activity. Would you choose the guy who passed his exams in the space of a couple of years or the guy with the same qualifications who's been doing the activity half his life?

Its a fair point but I have been kayaking about 7 years now & far more frequently than most people. I wouldn't go for the 5 star if I didn't feel ready. What the assessments have shown me is areas that I should expand my knowledge & start proper trip planning evan if I am just covering familier routes with my mates.


Claire, was great hearing about your trip & sounds like you made the right decision. I'm still pondering the key points that I've learned but will post them when I get time to stop whizzing about, been a bit hectic the past couple of days with too much to think about. Boys dont multitask ;D

[Mark R]

http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/press ... eid=764894

[sleepybubble]

Whooa, easy tiger, the assessor chose the most suitable location for the remit for 5 star & I think his decision was spot on, I was just playing it safe & hoping not to work too hard. I wasnt leading when the incident happened & it was other leadership factors that were brought to my attention.

I wasn't having a pop at you :) I can't agree that the location 'on that day' and 'with that group' was suitable. This is borne out by the evidence.

The assessor didn't say they didn't want to be named, that's just the impression I got? Chinese whispers & all that. They were right too as this debate is getting quite lively :S But as I'm an avid blogger I could hardly omit such an incident from my blog.

Which is the impression we are getting from your impression. I doubt anybodies baying for blood. You know though that people like 'lively' deconstructions.

Good on you for posting it up though and continuing to respond. As for timings and when to do assessments, you'll just know when your good enough. Take your feedback on board and Just keep paddling.

Mark

[Taran Tyla]

http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/press_centre/news_releases/news_release_detail?articleid=764894

Ooooer, thats me paddling towards the lifeboat :S

Whooa, easy tiger, the assessor chose the most suitable location for the remit for 5 star & I think his decision was spot on, I was just playing it safe & hoping not to work too hard. I wasnt leading when the incident happened & it was other leadership factors that were brought to my attention.

I wasn't having a pop at you :) I can't agree that the location 'on that day' and 'with that group' was suitable. This is borne out by the evidence.

Hey Sleepy, didnt think you were having a pop but it is all getting a bit lively ;D
The assessor didn't say they didn't want to be named, that's just the impression I got? Chinese whispers & all that. They were right too as this debate is getting quite lively :S But as I'm an avid blogger I could hardly omit such an incident from my blog.

Which is the impression we are getting from your impression. I doubt anybodies baying for blood. You know though that people like 'lively' deconstructions.

Good on you for posting it up though and continuing to respond. As for timings and when to do assessments, you'll just know when your good enough. Take your feedback on board and Just keep paddling.

Mark

[sleepybubble]

http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/press_centre/news_releases/news_release_detail?articleid=764894

Ooooer, thats me paddling towards the lifeboat :S

I dare you to snarf that for your forum avatar.

Hey Sleepy, didnt think you were having a pop but it is all getting a bit lively ;D

Lively, ha. Just wait until Debbie gets wind of it.

Mark

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Taran, can you explain this bit - "Just prior to this I was told to tow his boat onto the beach which I did."

You mean someone said "if he falls in and loses the boat..." or was he under tow when he fell in?

Trying to get a clear picture, is all.

PS: With regards having an FNG or two along with a party like this, that's how they learn - in the actual conditions, with a bunch of other guys who can look after them if and when they get into trouble. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Noobs kind of expected to fall in or need towed or whatever?

[Douglas Wilcox]

Photo credit RNLI

Taran>

Ooooer, thats me paddling towards the lifeboat :S

Crikey, Taran you look magnificent! You guys did well to get out of that "get out" with just a trashed Cetus, I wouldn't have fancied "shimmying" up those rocks either! I wish you better conditions on the return paddle to tow out the guinea pig's kayak (if you were not able to tow it out to the lifeboat).

Douglas

[Mark R]

Lively, ha. Just wait until Debbie gets wind of it.

Two comments;

1] I'm not laughing, I'm genuinely appalled by this significant failure of care by a professional coaching outfit.

2] I made pretty much the same observations as Debbie after the Strumble Head rescue, and promoted and agreed 100% with her advice and comments, yet no one sneered at me. The only difference I can see to explain your attitude (and that of others at the time and subsequently) is that she doesn't have a beard.

[sleepybubble]

Lively, ha. Just wait until Debbie gets wind of it.

Two comments;

1] I'm not laughing, I'm genuinely appalled by this significant failure of care by a professional coaching outfit.

2] I made pretty much the same observations as Debbie after the Strumble Head rescue, and promoted and agreed 100% with her advice and comments, yet no one sneered at me. The only difference I can see to explain your attitude (and that of others at the time and subsequently) is that she doesn't have a beard.

In response;

1. I'm not going to word my raised eyebrows as strongly as that. Its just not my place to.
2. Classic Rainsley kneejerk overreaction. Please get a narrower brush for when your splashing tar about. I quite enjoy Debbies forthright opinions and detailed insights. Her turn of phrase though is what I would describe as robust though which is somewhat beyond lively. You have a beard? I'd advise you shave it off, its really not part of the right image in modern sea kayaking, and babies hate them.

Mark

[journeyman]

. . . promoted and agreed 100% with her advice and comments, yet no one sneered at me.

All in the delivery me thinks?

As for the beard and babies that's another matter.

[Debbie]

We just got back last night from a wonderful trip on the west coast of Scotland with good kayaking, a few line squalls, lovely wild camping and we even found some mussels to steam – no helicopter required.

Another rescue involving private coaches in Wales, again?

Seven (7) paddlers of 5-star ability who couldn’t even take care of one (1), just one (1) and only one (1) unfortunate person without requiring a Coast Guard rescue ??????

It sounds like the only safe contingency plan option was to call the Coast Guard.

Can it be right that commercial operators freely use the Coast Guard/RNLI for their own personal safety boat cover at taxpayers’ expense? I didn’t pay taxes and my RNLI membership fee to subsidize commercial operators. If they require a safety boat to complete training and assessments, shouldn’t they hire one for private use? Unbelievable!

Since I’m not all that optimistic that anyone in this incident has or will learn anything, I have made a list of what I myself have learned.

Lessons I, (Debbie) Have Learned:

1. Higher level coaches/assessors are above criticism and unlikely to be held responsible or accountable for incidents which happen due to their poor judgement.

2. There seems to exist an overdependence by some commercial operators on the Coast Guard. Some commercial operators seem to feel that it's okay to expect the Coast Guard to provide safety boat cover for their private business at taxpayers’ expense. This enables the coach to lead groups in rougher conditions than he ordinarily would have led them in.

3. There are a couple of new phrases that are now used to replace “being rescued”. They are, “got a lift”, “was assisted” or the Coast Guard “got involved”. In other words, if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it’s really an alligator. It is no longer p.c. to remind a person that they were rescued in case it damages their fragile ego.

4. It is okay to use the Coast Guard to give you a “lift” if you’re uncomfortable, or may have to overnight somewhere without your bed. They might even deliver a pizza to your wild campsite. All you have to do is hail on your VHF radio, “Deep Pan, Deep Pan, Deep Pan, I’m in need of immediate sustenance. My location is a rocky cove with big waves.”

5. For some, the new 5-Star leadership award is all about ego, machismo and bravado. Leading people safely – what’s that??

6. I can still be considered a risk-taking adventurer without really taking any risks at all. I can get away with going out in very rough conditions and brag about it later. But I know my intrepidness is fake, since I’ll always be rescued by the Coast Guard in about 5-10 minutes.

7. No expense will be spared to support my recklessness. Helicopters, lifeboats will all be deployed to “give me a lift”, or “assist me”, and then I will have finally made it as one of the few, the proud, the best of British sea kayakers.

My advice to Taran Tyler: For your next assessment, get yourself a different assessor.

Regards,

Debbie

[Mark R]

2. There seems to exist an overdependence by some commercial operators on the Coast Guard.

I don't think there is the evidence to support this. I am aware of none who have used emergency services more than once...???

[Mark R]

PS Actually, now I reflect, I can think of one who has used them more than once. But only once whilst coaching/ leading.

[journeyman]

“Deep Pan, Deep Pan, Deep Pan, I’m in need of immediate sustenance. My location is a rocky cove with big waves.”

Tea all over my computer, table and floor . . .

[Mark R]

Seven (7) paddlers of 5-star ability who couldn’t even take care of one (1), just one (1) and only one (1) unfortunate person without requiring a Coast Guard rescue ??????

Pretty unfair attacking the candidates, surely? The whole point of an assessment is to see if the candidates are up to the required standard, within controlled conditions. If they aren't able to cope with a scenario, then the whole set-up and planning should have been safely organised by the assessors so that no one actually gets hurt/ rescued by lifeboat/ towed out of boat for kilometres.

[Boots]

Just like the MRT s then Debbie, turn out to whoever what ever do the job go to the pub and talk about it, some day anyone of us may fined us in a situation we need help......... thanks for the info Taran and yes lessons for all of us even some who may not need it

[ArnoG]

4. It is okay to use the Coast Guard to give you a “lift” if you’re uncomfortable, or may have to overnight somewhere without your bed. They might even deliver a pizza to your wild campsite. All you have to do is hail on your VHF radio, “Deep Pan, Deep Pan, Deep Pan, I’m in need of immediate sustenance. My location is a rocky cove with big waves.”

Splendid. Simply splendid.

A.-

[Taran Tyla]

Taran, can you explain this bit - "Just prior to this I was told to tow his boat onto the beach which I did."

You mean someone said "if he falls in and loses the boat..." or was he under tow when he fell in?

Trying to get a clear picture, is all.

PS: With regards having an FNG or two along with a party like this, that's how they learn - in the actual conditions, with a bunch of other guys who can look after them if and when they get into trouble. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Noobs kind of expected to fall in or need towed or whatever?

The guy who fell in was paddling to shore with a boat full of water when he fell in. The assessors assistant initially put a tow line on his boat, not sure why? before asking me to take up the tow of the empty boat.

Debbie, I'm surprised at your reaction! The group on the beach decided to call the Coast Guard to try & stop a potentially dangerous situation from escalating. Would you prefer us to put more bodies in the water?
The point of the 5 star award is to look after your group not try & be a super hero. I think we swallowed humble pie & acheived that.

[journeyman]

Taran if you are happy to further discuss this - out of interest was the eventual contact with the CG made by phone or by VHF? Were you able to find out from the CG if the split party had tried to contact them, or could the CG act as a relay to contact the split party for you? Did the CG advise or prompt the call for the services in any way or did you specifically request them?

It seems that as soon as a group is split with no ability to get coms with the other, then a call out ensues instigated by one or other of the split parties when they don't actually know the well being of the other party. The call is made as a precaution not a necessity.

What is the way forward from here in these situations?

[Stuart Yendle]

I'm worried that some non constructive comments on these threads may put people off calling for help when actually needed. It's hard enough making the decision to ask for help without people scrutinizing the reasons for doing so afterwards. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Surely it is better to be safe than sorry?

[Mark R]

What is the way forward from here in these situations?

Don't go out in inappropriate conditions. If you can't judge if conditions are inappropriate, then as a rule of thumb, assume that they are inappropriate.


PS Exactly the same lesson as Strumble Head - all the stuff about VHF contact regimes etc (whilst interesting) is a massive red herring.

[Douglas Wilcox]

Taran you don't need to defend the indefensible. You did nothing wrong.

Stuart, calling the coastguard was the right thing to do in this situation. When I made my 999 call and my friend turned out to be safe ashore (but not contactable) I apologised to the coast guard but was told in now uncertain terms I had done the right thing as the less time from the last sighting the smaller the search area will be and the time exposed to danger for the rescue crews will also be less. With regard to

Surely it is better to be safe than sorry?

In both my case and Taran's case I think the key decision affecting safety was taken well before the coastguards were contacted. It was taken when we left the beach.

Although I don't have any stars, I do have experience of an equally windy 5 star assessment as a guinea pig, it was held in a very different location and circumstances to St David's head in a NW wind. The assessors were Gordon Brown, Donald Thomson and Ken Nicol. On the morning of the assessment, it was windy like Taran's photo on the beach setting off. The assessors announced that because of the wind the planned venue, an exposed headland, was changed. They chose an area with strong tides, exposed water but with lots of shelter nearby. The candidates had to lead us on a safe route through the area and deal with a number of emergencies on the way. It was a very testing session for the candidates but there were many escape opportunities, if they had been required.

I was also present during the filming of Gordon Brown's 2nd DVD, which illustrated training in up to 5* conditions in the waters of St Kilda. An ideal opportunity to film some gung ho bravado? Not a bit of it. One of the team did fall in on the remote SW coast of Dun. Donald Thomson and Calum McKerrall (who was one of the successful 5* candidates on my guinea pig experience 6 years previously) promptly rescued the paddler who was not wearing a dry suit. Gordon sized up the situation and cut the session short because the paddler was getting cold. This was despite the possibility of some amazing and probably unrepeatable filming opportunities if we had continued. That's what I expect from a professional he put the interests of those he was guiding first. I have met some fantastic coaches from all over the UK that you could learn from but I can personally vouch for the excellence of those associated with Gordon Brown and Skyak. Taran if I were wanting to achieve 5* I would chose to get at least some of your training there. I think it is beneficial to learn from several coaches.

Douglas

[journeyman]

What is the way forward from here in these situations?

Don't go out in inappropriate conditions. If you can't judge if conditions are inappropriate, then as a rule of thumb, assume that they are inappropriate.

I appreciate that the primary judgment call is to go on the water or not. By the way forward I mean given that you are facing a situation, however it may have come about, where a party has split, with no visual or other means to communicate with each other, what becomes an appropriate action plan?

[Oarsome]

Let me preface this by saying I don't think Taran did anything wrong in the situation.

And at the risk of infuriating some or the other as I seem to be doing every other post around here, I do think that the situation was appalling. It shows to me, just how ridiculous the title "coach" can be, and how stupid stars (often) are.

Good on you, Taran, for wanting stars, but your coaches that day was appalling. But I'm really surprised that someone looking to build a business coaching are arguing that the decision was made on the beach. Surely, when things change, you have to be able to change with it, and continously weigh your options, monitor the weather and the situation, and not just go for it, regardless of what's happening underway.

I don't care how much experience you got under your belt beforehand, but arguing that assessing the situation on the beach means not having to do so continously is dangerous to me. Oh, of course, the RNLI can give you a tow or a lift. Isn't that nice.

Personally, I have been out in an open boat (my "canoe" row boat) in horrendously big breaking waves and strong winds being funneled, miles from the nearest land. If I had had VHF or an PLB, would I have called for help? No, not by a long short. Yes, it was cold, it was wet, and at times I was scared shitless, my hands were bleeding, but I solved the situation.

Before you guys go on about the "better safe than sorry", I have to say that, to me, that sounds like a carte blanche to have the RNLI on speed dial. Better safe than sorry, yes, but that doesn't mean the persons or actions in question are beyond criticism. They should have been able to solve the situation, but from what I've read here, it seems their stardom was mediocre at best.

They took out candidates in crappy weather and put them in a situation they weren't able to handle, but needed to be rescued by the RNLI. The mere fact, that the situation got so much out of hand should raise a few eye brows.

[TechnoEngineer]

4. It is okay to use the Coast Guard to give you a “lift” if you’re uncomfortable, or may have to overnight somewhere without your bed. They might even deliver a pizza to your wild campsite. All you have to do is hail on your VHF radio, “Deep Pan, Deep Pan, Deep Pan, I’m in need of immediate sustenance. My location is a rocky cove with big waves.”

LMFAO :D :D :D :D

[TechnoEngineer]

Taran if you are happy to further discuss this - out of interest was the eventual contact with the CG made by phone or by VHF? Were you able to find out from the CG if the split party had tried to contact them, or could the CG act as a relay to contact the split party for you? Did the CG advise or prompt the call for the services in any way or did you specifically request them?

It seems that as soon as a group is split with no ability to get coms with the other, then a call out ensues instigated by one or other of the split parties when they don't actually know the well being of the other party. The call is made as a precaution not a necessity.

What is the way forward from here in these situations?

If I had had VHF or an PLB....

Ta-dahhhh - tish! Have more than one PLB in a group, and have someone shore-based keeping track of them. Assuming that it would work that is.....

Recently I organised an on-the-water rendezvous with Michal and Natalie as they rounded Selsey, this was made quite slick by being able to call someone at their home who was monitoring their progress from their position as reported by their PLB.

Perhaps we could even devise some kind of HF radio beacon which could be more easily found from a shore-base with DF equipment. Or just have someone stand on a clifftop with a VHF radio. Or do 5* assessments where there is mobile 'phone coverage.....

[Taran Tyla]

Theres a hell of a lot of emphasise on the weather here which is odd considering none of you were present. I don't think the conditions were inappropriate for a 5 star assessment. We were all comfortable with the conditions with the exception of the guy in the water. The incident occurred due to the tide giving us less time to sort the swimmer out & get him back in his boat. A few hundred yards would have made all the difference but as it was things happened much more quickly.
The beach group could have carried on but hampered with an extra boat & a damaged one too.
We contacted the Coast Guard by VHF & were told by them that the other group had made it safely around the head, pretty impressive really.