Wimmin's event

[Mark R]

For a good cause...

http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/press ... eid=763296
https://womensseakayakfestival.wordpress.com/

[seylan]

I wonder if anybody is planning to organise a men only sea kayaking festival...

[Stuart Yendle]

I wonder if anybody is planning to organise a men only sea kayaking festival...

That would be sexist :-)

[mark62]

If they did there would be complaints of sexism :p

[mark62]

Too slow as usual!

[Stuart Yendle]

I wonder if anybody is planning to organise a men only sea kayaking festival...

Anyway where's the fun in that...

[Nick-C]

It's a great idea to offer women in sea kayaking the option of a dedicated sea kayak festival in Scotland this summer.

I've no doubt that many female paddlers will be keen to attend - Carol Lang, Justine Curgenven and Kate Duffus are excellent coaches and inspirational paddlers who will enhance the experience for all participants.

They are also involved in other sea kayaking events this summer - so don't worry guys, you'll get your chance to join them on the water!

I hope the event is a success for all involved and that it raises plenty of funds for a deserving cause.

[Billy The Fisherman]

That was a bit of an unfortunate list of threads.
First
“Wimmin's event“ next thread down
“The Bitches”

[andreadawn]

It must be a tough life, guys, always being on the wrong end of sexism. Still, if a Men's Sea Kayak Festival is what you really want, all you have to do is organise it.

Andrea Collins

[seylan]

That's quite an easy response to any kind of segregation (blacks don't need to come in here - they've got their own restaurants/buses/whatever unfortunately springs to mind) and women have fought long and hard to have access to many male only institutions.

To be honest its not the exclusiveness that bothers me as people can choose whether or not to attend and there are indeed many events available that don't exclude men. But there are two things that make me uncomfortable:

- as was mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a strong suspicion that if men only events had appeared first then the same people who are keen on women only events would be complaining.

- to me this kind of event gives an impression, perhaps particularly to women who are new to the sport, that women are somehow less capable - they need a women only event to feel comfortable . Why? is it because the guys are better / stronger / braver? Also why provide the top female coaches - don't women deserve the best coaches full stop, regardless of their gender?

[andreadawn]

Seriously, if a Men's Sea Kayak Festival is what you want, why not organise one? I'd certainly have no objection.

Now, if you wanted to assert that sea kayaking is a 'purely male institution', that would certainly be different and I would definitley object. As has been said, "women have fought long and hard to have access to many male only institutions".

But we're not talking about that sort of extreme exclusion here are we? At least I hope we're not. We're talking about some women wanting to sometimes spend time in the company of other women whilst developing their skills & enjoying a social occasion with people they might not otherwise meet. As noted, there are a huge number of events where everyone can paddle together if that is what is wanted. A Women's Sea Kayak Festival doesn't impact upon that at all. Nor would a Men's Festival.

As for women getting the impression that sea kayaking is not for us, we need look no further than this forum. Whilst the forum is an excellent resource with lots of interesting discussion, the overwhelming majority of the discussion & opinion, with a few notable exceptions, is dominated by men. That is not representative of the paddling community that I know, which is split more like 50/50 on gender grounds.

Back on topic, I think this sounds like a great, really well thought out event. Sadly I won't be attending as I'll be somewhere else. I wish it every success.

Andrea Collins

[Mark R]

That is not representative of the paddling community that I know, which is split more like 50/50 on gender grounds.

The balance isn't dissimilar in my social circles, too. What does interest me is why this should be so for sea paddling, yet there is much more imbalance in WW paddling.

[atakd]

I have to agree that this sort of discriminatory event is divisive. However poorly certain groups have been treated in the past, and I fully accept that women have been, reversing, and therefore sustaining, such contrived demarcations serves no purpose. You can't have positive discrimination without negative discrimination.

[No Kayak]

Maybe it's the name that's divisive rather than the event itself? "Woman's Scottish Sea Kayak Festival" sounds a little more exclusionary to men than inclusive only to women.

Call it something more neutral (with a female slant), with a strapline along the lines of "The female friendly Kayaking Festival", and even an explicit "men welcome" message would still have anyone capable of growing a facial beard (well, specifically men who could do that) paddling as fast as they can in the opposite direction.

Can't see anything wrong with the event or the principle of it, just maybe a bit of presentation in the naming and description.

Along with Karitek's beginners symposium, it's nice to see events springing up.

[sleepybubble]

Cor, and it isn't the first time this successful event has happened either. Dangerous thing letting women have get togethers on their own I say. They will be plotting the overthrow of modern civilisation. Back in the good old days Coven's of corracle'rs were burnt at the stake or ducked until drowned. Now they can roam free on the high seas with hardly a kitchen sink in sight. Terrible... Down with that stuff.....



Get a grip guys.... positive discrimination my arse. Its just obviously gonna be a fun party which your not invited to and your Jealous.


Mark

[atakd]

Get a grip guys.... positive discrimination my arse. Its just obviously gonna be a fun party which your not invited to and your Jealous.
Mark

Yeah, right. And why aren't I invited? Because I'm a man. Substitute black for man and see how your argument sits.

[Mark R]

Wishing I had never mentioned this pleasant sounding and harmless event, being run for a good cause.

If the stuff in this thread isn't odd/ disturbing enough for you, you should see the stuff we had to delete.

[seylan]

I totally agree with No Kayak - nothing wrong with a festival celebrating women in sea kayaking which men are welcome to attend.

And for the record I'm not jealous - as a woman I would have been able to attend this event. But the fact that I'm not the one being excluded doesn't make it seem any less exclusive to me.

[Jim]

Women have certain needs that men simply cannot understand (least of all me). The idea behind a women only event is surely to create a forum where women can be comfortable about these things without having to explain or hide the reasons to/from men (as may be appropriate). The goal being that through open discussions they can share ideas/techniques/whatever that will enable them to enjoy their paddling time more when back in a mixed group where they are not comfortable discussing the same issues, due to lack of understanding from half of us. Personally I have no interest in participating in an event where 'womens stuff' is going to be a subject for discussion, never mind one where it will be the predominant theme.

Now why don't we have men only events where men can discuss 'mens stuff'???

Simple, there is no such thing as 'mens stuff', and if there was we sure as hell wouldn't talk about it.

Besides which, however many women paddle, most paddling is clearly done from a male perspective, even with a mixed sex group.

[immunogirl]

When I first started biking seriously, I spent a lot of time hanging out on a women's cycling forum. The drama was a bit annoying, but when you need advice on what sort of saddle to get or how to fit your bike, you can't beat a forum of other females who have all been through it... The average male working in the local bike shop has no idea how to make it so your soft tissues don't hurt even after you've broken down and finally told them that your hoohah is chafed or hurting - typically they just stick you on a big wide pink saddle on a hybrid bike.

So yeah, there are somethings that females have a much more comfortable time discussing with other females, and you're way more likely to get good answers out of a female.

I seriously don't see the need for it for women kayakers, it's never occured to me to even search for a female kayaking forum... I'm pretty comfortable with talking about female issues on a regular kayaking forum. If you guys don't want to read it, don't open the thread. But other than how to relieve yourself, there's not that many female specific issues. Instructors at kayaking events I've been to have always been a close to equal mix of males & females, so generally issues of possible difference in strength or body weight distribution have been covered...

I do know a few female kayakers who become a lot more "helpless" when their bf/SO/husband is around. Things that they've got no problem doing, suddenly become issues when a guy is around. I just try to paddle with them when their partner isn't around, because it's just annoying. I could see a women's only event doing them a lot of good.

[andreadawn]

Look, maybe I can put some context on my own thoughts about this event. I’m speaking about my own personal experiences here and not making any claims whatsoever as to why other women might want to attend such an event, or not as the case may be. These are my thoughts, my feelings, and most importantly, my experiences.

I’ve never actually actively sought out a women’s specific event, although have noticed with interest that some course providers, such as Skyak advertise women only courses. I came across this one by chance and thought it sounded very attractive, especially when I saw who the coaches were going to be. Unfortunately I can’t attend as I’ll be somewhere else.

Firstly, a little disclaimer. Most of the blokes I have paddled with in mixed groups have been absolutely lovely. Just ordinary guys with a common shared interest in the marine & coastal environments which I love so much. Great people to paddle with; a bit of chat and banter; entirely non judgemental, decent human beings. So what follows is not a suggestion that men in general are all hideous monsters, totally incapable of keeping their willies under control, or totally incapable of listening to what a woman has to say without butting in incessantly to correct the silly girl’s opinions. I don’t think either of those things are true. And there are plenty of unpleasant women out there; one who writes for the Daily Mail immediately springs to mind. I’ll come back to this in a bit for anyone who hasn’t totally lost interest; the general theme, not the Daily Mail that is!

I also don’t want to give the impression that I view myself as some sort of “victim”. I don’t. If I did, I would never set foot outside my front door, let alone go hill walking, sea kayaking or camping by myself. So I’ll cut to my other life, the non sea kayaking one as it were. I work in a very male dominated and somewhat macho environment. I’m a train driver: one of some 800 women in a profession of some 18000 men. A job I really enjoy. A job that also brings me into contact with large numbers of those people who make up the “general public”.

The only realistic way to survive in this profession at the location where I work is to just be one of the lads. Sexism is everywhere; laddish banter is incessant. Quips about the inability of women to solve technical problems are rife; I’ve been completely ignored by maintenance staff as obviously I couldn’t possibly know anything about technical issues. Obviously one of those guys over there must be the driver. Oh, that’s the guard and station staff. Where’s the driver then? Erm, that’s me actually and if you‘d care to listen without interrupting I can explain what the technical problem is. The only problem is, you don’t want to listen without interrupting as I can’t possibly have anything of worth to say. If I complained about every instance of this sort of thing my working life would be intolerable. I’m expected to laugh along with the jokes. Some of them are actually quite funny; just not endlessly, all of the time.

I also have to put up with regular comments from the “general public”. “No wonder its late, there’s a ……. woman driving it” & “I’m not getting on that one, there’s a ……. woman driving it”, are fairly typical regular comments. The missing word is always the same. It has seven letters with a ‘k’ in the middle. Without that word, these “jokes” would perhaps be less problematic but that word is always there. On a number of occasions, I have had men tell me to my face that driving trains is not a job for women. Some have been extremely aggressive and offensive in the language they have used. Twice I have been spat at for taking men’s work away from them.

Sometimes the behaviour goes beyond verbal abuse. On one occasion whilst I was bending down, rectifying a technical problem on my train, a man came up behind me, thrust his crotch close to the back of my head and invited me to turn around as he had something for me. A bit of a laugh? Not when you’re on the receiving end. Recently, a man came up to me and started stroking my arm, telling me I was “lovely”, whilst trying to back me into a dark corner out of sight of anyone else (he didn’t succeed). Flattering? No. Really bloody scary actually. Now I’m happy to admit I’m not page 3 material (thankfully), but I’m still subject to this sort of sexual harassment. Heaven knows what some women have to put up with.

But hang on a minute you say. This isn’t relevant to sea kayaking. Men who go sea kayaking aren’t like that. Well, how do you know that? Mark R, in his post above, alludes to some deleted content on this thread. Well, I read some of that content, before it was deleted. And guess what? It was just like that. Different words maybe, but the same in principle. From a man who seemed perfectly harmless based on his previous postings. He may of course actually be harmless, but based on what he wrote I’m not sure I’d want to take the chance. Men who go sea kayaking are in fact the “general public”. And yes, I get that boys are sometimes abused; I get that some men are concerned with the increasing sexualisation of masculinity; I get that kids need their dads. Heaven knows, there are kids here who have great dads. Going kayaking with your dad must be great. This isn’t a pop at men in general. It’s my experience of what some men are like. And some of those men may be sea kayakers. But they don’t have a warning stamped across their forehead.

I’ll come back to that point I made above. I don’t for one moment consider that these behaviours are typical of men in general. But it is something I have actually experienced and it ranges from tiresome to frightening. And just sometimes; sometimes, that is: I want out of that world. I don’t want that verbal abuse. I don’t want to even have to consider the possibility of abuse, verbal or otherwise. Just sometimes. So I might consider the possibility of going on a women only trip. Just sometimes. Not all the time mind. I might also consider the possibility of any one of the numerous other symposiums, storm gatherings, club events or informal trips open to everybody. And I come back to this forum; the only internet forum I frequent. It’s full of real people, mostly men admittedly, and a few women; but real people, many of whom are prepared to put their real name to what they have to say. On the whole it’s a friendly place, just like the real sea kayaking community.

OK, you say. So what needs to change is society in general. Not the sea kayaking community. Well, I’d agree with that to a point. But the sea kayaking community is society in general. People who go sea kayaking are the “general public“. Like the general public, most of them are great. A few aren’t great however, and fewer again are …… well, I can’t think of a suitable word. Most of this latter category are……I’m sorry……men, or more to the point, heterosexual (probably) men. So sometimes, I might not want to risk finding myself stuck in a group with these individuals. I might of course find myself stuck in a group which includes the Daily Mail writer alluded to previously. But at least she is unlikely to try and stick her hand inside my jacket.

As I said this is purely my perspective and other women may have entirely different reasons for wanting to attend such an event. I’m glad though, that such events exist and I have some choice in the matter. Just as men have the choice to set up their own event if that is what they want. Or not as the case may be. In an ideal world we’d all paddle together all the time without thinking twice about it. Maybe some people live in that ideal world. I don’t. I live in a pleasant rural place called Cumbria. A beautiful place to live? Yes. Ideal? Not yet. So I think this is a great event. Everyone who attends may have totally different reasons than me for being interested. But I still think it's great and as I said I wish it every success.

Andrea Collins

[GrahamKing]

Thanks Andrea. Good post.

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

I'm pretty sure that, statistically speaking, last time I heard at least, there were much more men than women involved in the sport, so it makes a lot of sense that events should be run that encourage women to get involved or push their skills. I'm pretty sure that, if the neoprene sock was on the other foot, and men were the minority then we would indeed see men-only events to encourage guys to get involved.

Personally I'm as happy paddling in mixed company as I am with just my own kind but I can't deny the fact that they are two different kinds of trips for me. On man-trips, it's all about the manliness factor, doing dumb shit, lighting huge fires and howling like a wolf whereas when there's women present, it all tends to be a lot more sensible but that's just a personal observation, based on my own experience. I daresay there are women out there who would be (perhaps have already been) put off by the - my waterline is longer than yours - school of paddling, so more power to them for doing it women only (whatever the hell that entails).

[Douglas Wilcox]

Very well said Andrea.

It is shocking that a professional woman such as yourself should have to put up with such discriminatory behaviour in the 21st century. Sadly it's not just in transport that there is such behaviour and discrimination. I saw it in education and health as well. One of my daughters is a vet, in fact the majority of recent vet graduates are women. She has lost count of the times that clients (male and female) say to her that they "want to see the vet, not the vet nurse". Because there is so much discrimination against females in our society, I hardly see that a small women's sea kayaking event can be seen as upsetting the overall male/female balance.

With respect to symposiums, I have been to several and although I have thoroughly enjoyed most of the trips, on some of the events there has been so much testosterone and bravado flying around that I wished I was somewhere else. So I wish this event every success, in fact I hope there are many more. In our family, myself and Jennifer paddle regularly and my wife Alison and daughter Sheena also paddle (Sheena went paddling round the James Bond islands in Thailand on her honeymoon). So in our family there are more female paddlers than males.

I was lucky enough to be on the St Kilda trip that was filmed as part of the recent Gordon Brown DVD. It was a mixed party and was one of the highlights of my paddling life. Without sitting down and drawing up a list of names, I couldn't tell you how many males and females were on the trip. Gender was not an issue. We were just a bunch of sea kayakers having fun.

Douglas

[seylan]

Andrea - I have total sympathy. We all have to deal with that kind of treatment from time to time and to be faced with it on a daily basis must be frustrating, to say the least.

But my concerns remain. A few more uncomfortable examples - I'm sure most South African white women felt more comfortable socialising when the blacks were not present. And I bet a lot of heterosexual men in the army would be a lot more at ease if they were not sharing with gay men. Discrimination is discrimination and two wrongs do not make a right.

But more to the point for me is the impression we're giving of female paddlers. Do we need to be mollycoddled? Kept away from all that nasty testosterone and derring do? You can bet that Freida and Justine, for example, have plenty of balls. Are we suggesting that women's events will be much more civilised and will avoid risk taking? Do we need our own special event because we can't cope with the rigours of mixed sex or male dominated events? There are many men who only ever paddle short distances on calm sunny days and women who do solo paddles in all conditions. These things are not split strictly down gender lines and even if they were, you learn a lot from observing behaviour and learning styles that are dissimilar to your own.

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Maybe it's not about discrimination. Maybe it's just like sometimes I get kicked out the house, cos my partner is having a "girlie night", one which, if I were to defy her and attend, I would be manically trying to claw my own eyes out and pick dollops of oestrogen from my hair and clothes, within a matter of milliseconds.

Maybe it's like when I go on a lads night and she doesn't even suggest being allowed to come along, cos she's one of those weirdos who doesn't like throwing money at strippers, climbing lamp posts and falling asleep in a wheelie bin, covered in your own sick.

Equality is all good and well but the truth is that equal rights does not mean identical organisms. Men and women have their differences. No harm in accepting and even making the most of that.

[MikeB]

With respect to symposiums, I have been to several and although I have thoroughly enjoyed most of the trips, on some of the events there has been so much testosterone and bravado flying around that I wished I was somewhere else.

And thereby, I suggest, is the main driver behind why an event aimed specifically at women has a place. It's about offering something to a group of people who tend, sometimes, to be overwhelmed by the "testosterone and bravado" syndrom. Whether that means there should also be a "non-testosterone and bravado" event for those of us like Douglas (and I'll include myself there too) who dont necessarily feel the need to flex our adolescent, testosterone fuelled impulses is another matter.

I wish this Women's Event well.

My SCA trips (and indeed all such trips) are "mixed" - so far, no one has suggested running a single-sex trip.

Mike.

[Mark R]

Sounds like it was a great event.

http://www.kayakacrossthewater.co.uk/20 ... e-of-bute/