Is something wrong at Valley...

[Mikebelluk]

Well, after all that here's 2 new Valley boats to keep everyone up to date...

http://youtu.be/fjHzA3UEL6A

Delphins beware.

[rockall]

Brilliant, Mike, well done! We'd never have known unless you'd sleuthed it for us!

Meanwhile back at the Valley web site we're still in the Year of the Etain.....they must have been putting ALL their efforts into those twins ;)

Has to be said they look rather gorgeous!

[SeaSpirit]

Oh dear oh dear....what a load of fuss! I haven't read the preceeding five pages of comments, however I have a flavour from some of the recent posts. I bought a composite Valley boat last September so I have recent experience with Valley which I am happy to share. Yes, I realised they had a website and noticed that it wasn't entirely up to date. Did this present an insurmountable problem??? No, I emailed Valley with my queries and they replied fully and helpfully to every point. I then visited the local outlet (Woodmill in Southampton) who were excellent and really helpful and arranged, in conjunction with Valley, to borrow both the Etain and Aquanaut LV before finalising my choice. (I had previously tried several other boats from other manufacturers). I opted for the Aquanaut LV and placed the order. The boat was delivered ahead of schedule, exactly as specified and without any problems. In my excitement to get my shiny new boat home, I left the supplied foam pads in the cockpit and promptly lost them somewhere along the M27 (Doh!) I contacted Valley and they mailed a replacement set, free of charge, by return post. I have recently bought a Valley deck-mounted towline and again, the service was faultless. My first sea kayak was a Valley RM Aquanaut and my son has the HV version; all three boats have proved to be excellent. So, if you don't have a kayak and want to do something useful with your time, like go paddling, well, based on my experience, you won't go far wrong by buying yourself a Valley boat.

[nigelhatton]

I have bought another Valley boat recently, a 3 piece Aquanaut and love it. Can't say the same for a few individuals on this site though with their antagonistic views/replies for where ever they can apply them.

Next!

[Oarsome]

What a load of tosh, Nigel and SeaSpirit,

Noone is saying that noone is buying, nor are they saying that Valley makes crappy boats, nor that they had crappy service.

All in all, both posts are strawmen, and seems like light apologetics akin to "I know the guys, they're good guys", implying that the actions (or non-actions, as it were) are beyond criticism. They could make the best kayaks in the world, be the nicest blokes in the world, giving the best service in the world, and yet they're not competitive when it comes to planting their name in people's consciousness at a time where most people are gathering information, before settling on a given brand/model.

It's fine that they answer through email, but had you not known about them beforehand, you wouldn't have sent those emails. And really, what a waste of time for them to having to respond to each potential customer individually.

[Mark R]

I just found an old midget gem behind the sofa, and ate it.

[Oarsome]

I just found an old midget gem behind the sofa, and ate it.

Good for you.

Anything pertaining to the subject, Mr. Site Admin?

[SeaSpirit]

What a load of tosh, Nigel and SeaSpirit,

And really, what a waste of time for them to having to respond to each potential customer individually.

Actually, I quite like (and expect) an individual response from a company, not least when I am parting with +£2k for one of their products! My enquiries to Valley were not just about dimensions etc, but rather seeking an informed and experienced opinion on model suitablity based on my particular needs; you are not going to get that personalised type of information from a website.......in this world full of social media, internet this that and the other, I still much prefer to interact with another human being and not rely on a glossy brochure, whether it be in 'old fashioned' print or online.

[Oarsome]

What a load of tosh, Nigel and SeaSpirit,

And really, what a waste of time for them to having to respond to each potential customer individually.

Actually, I quite like (and expect) an individual response from a company, not least when I am parting with +£2k for one of their products! My enquiries to Valley were not just about dimensions etc, but rather seeking an informed and experienced opinion on model suitablity based on my particular needs; you are not going to get that personalised type of information from a website.......in this world full of social media, internet this that and the other, I still much prefer to interact with another human being and not rely on a glossy brochure, whether it be in 'old fashioned' print or online.

Fair enough. However, a website could guide people in the right direction to ask more pointed questions. You're probably not in need of that, though.

[SeaSpirit]

[quote="Oarsome"]What a load of tosh, Nigel and SeaSpirit,

"and yet they're not competitive when it comes to planting their name in people's consciousness at a time where most people are gathering information, before settling on a given brand/model".

Errr, emmm...."they're not competitive"...you seem to miss the point....I bought a Valley boat.

[Oarsome]

What a load of tosh, Nigel and SeaSpirit,

"and yet they're not competitive when it comes to planting their name in people's consciousness at a time where most people are gathering information, before settling on a given brand/model".

Errr, emmm...."they're not competitive"...you seem to miss the point....I bought a Valley boat.

Errr, emmm....., you seem to have missed the rest of the sentence.

[heybaz]

Thank you so very much; here I am in Oban for a week of coasteering and mountaineering and thus unable to get my kayak wet.

As often happens on my first night in a new bed, I had a poor nights sleep last night. Not tonight though - unless I start stressing about the potential effect of Mark's rediscovered midget gem on his digestive tract that is.

G'night all...

[Douglas Wilcox]

Douglas

[M-J-B]

[Fast Pat]

What a load of tosh, Nigel and SeaSpirit,

Noone is saying that noone is buying, nor are they saying that Valley makes crappy boats, nor that they had crappy service.

All in all, both posts are strawmen, and seems like light apologetics akin to "I know the guys, they're good guys", implying that the actions (or non-actions, as it were) are beyond criticism. They could make the best kayaks in the world, be the nicest blokes in the world, giving the best service in the world, and yet they're not competitive when it comes to planting their name in people's consciousness at a time where most people are gathering information, before settling on a given brand/model.

It's fine that they answer through email, but had you not known about them beforehand, you wouldn't have sent those emails. And really, what a waste of time for them to having to respond to each potential customer individually.

What is amusing is people telling others how they should run THEIR business. They are clearly happy that they are shifting boats and are busy developing new boats, they are not seeking world domination so do not require market penetration or any other management buzzword you may care to mention. They have a succesful business that keeps them busy enough - where they decide to put their resources is their call.

I see youre midget gem and raise you a Jelly Baby (green one)

[Oarsome]

What is amusing is people telling others how they should run THEIR business. They are clearly happy that they are shifting boats and are busy developing new boats, they are not seeking world domination so do not require market penetration or any other management buzzword you may care to mention. They have a succesful business that keeps them busy enough - where they decide to put their resources is their call.

I'm not telling them how to run their business. I'm making an observation and making my arguments to support that observation.

This site is fast becoming a site where nothing critical can be said, everything any manufacturer does or does not do, is perfect. I mean, "it's their business, so they know better than anyone and everyone. Screw the consumer and their needs."

I see youre midget gem and raise you a Jelly Baby (green one)

I see you're on wavelength with our very own thread crasher and shut-down-criticism-applauder, Mark, "Site Admin".

Willing idiots.

[Fast Pat]

I see you're on wavelength with our very own thread crasher and shut-down-criticism-applauder, Mark, "Site Admin".

Willing idiots.

Oh how I laughed!

Check the history of my posts

[Oarsome]

Oh how I laughed!

Check the history of my posts

In this case, you use the same jab as him, and act like him. It doesn't matter what else you have posted. You're paddling along nicely beside Mark, with the same paddles, in the same type of boat, in the same waters, at the same time.

[Fast Pat]

Oh how I laughed!

Check the history of my posts

In this case, you use the same jab as him, and act like him. It doesn't matter what else you have posted. You're paddling along nicely beside Mark, with the same paddles, in the same type of boat, in the same waters, at the same time.

Always nice to base a statement on fact.

Ohh a polo mint - I'm off to celebrate.

[Oarsome]

Always nice to base a statement on fact.

I did. You're doing the exact same as he is in this thread, using the same sort of arguments, hence my comparison of you two.

Ohh a polo mint - I'm off to celebrate.

Hand in hand, still.

[Wenley]

Hello,

I find this thread fresh, invigorating, and so full of vitality. I concede that the point of having a website that offers clear information with accessable, and updated content for many a business can be conjured. Perhaps even most would think that it certainly shouldn't hurt. However, I am fully behind Valley, as I strongly disagree on the aforementioned marketing techniques as passé and middle class. One had to be Scandinavian to think otherwise.

For some business, a good website is a little bit more than a nice business card that can be easily found in a search engine, and that is about it for them. A sort of suggestive brochure online is alright, but as much as they seem to be doing fine, would the managers in Valley Sea Kayaks ask for my advice, I'd suggest that there are far more effective ways to keep their traditional clientele loyal and satisfied, while the brand stands strong and differential, encompassing a true British identity:

Item: Valley Canoe Products was a far better name. The implication was already clear. Valley Sea Kayaks is in contrast, redundant. Who needs a brain? Akin to advising Henry Poole & Co to explicit themselves as tailors.
Item: Valley remains in our troubled times, a place for the handcraft of traditional British sea kayaks. Making a kayak that is sound surely takes its time: Nowadays, shipments seem to arrive disappointingly in time. I was far more satisfied when Valley dispatched her kayaks scrupulously achieving a five-month delay. Then, the final product did feel unique.
Item: I would regard with utmost distrust any sea kayak website that screams in sizzling colours, about class and excellence. Far too much noise. That reeks of child labour, and Valley doesn't. I am certain that most of their work force still sport whiskers, and listen to an old wireless. Besides, what would be the next abomination? Dimming the lights in the warehouse and employing ladies of the night to glass the boats?
Item: In olden times, Valley did not even offer a single e-mail address but an uncertain postal address in a recondite suburb in Colwick, Nottingham. I had to reach them through an obscure link found in Knoydart's. Still their premises are in Private Road 4. I am quite certain that would I cath a taxi in Nottingham, the driver would not be able to reach them easily. I liked that. It felt like something out of The Matrix. Reassuring.
Item: Take my trade, for instance: Would you be in the need of it, what would you trust more? A big law firm with offices across dozens of jurisdictions, and a sobering website with popping news updates and flashing seminars sections; or the solid, and discreet brass plaque that just bears two names, gracing some old building in London or Geneva? I let to your imagination to guess where the best work is more often done, though I am certain of the answer.

I would shake my fist and waggle my tongue to ensure that Valley remains a place of precision and beauty.

[Jim]

When I was trying to compare boats last year I noted that there was no consistency in the information given by manufacturers, very few actually listed the stats I was looking for on their websites, including some brands I see being applauded in this thread for up to date websites. The VCP website just has some different deficiencies.

If VCP's order books are still as full as they used to be, and as much stock is still going abroad as it used to, it could well be that they don't need the website as much as some of us do.

Whoever commented on production techniques clearly has no grasp of what they are. British built sea kayaks are hand crafted, no 2 are exactly the same, they tend to be built to order not to stock (so no or few production runs), and many customers will email or call in order to discuss individualisation of their new boat, from relatively minor things like a couple of extra or fewer RDFs in their preferred position, presence or lack of a compass recess, front bulkhead position, day hatch or not, right up to relatively major things like 3 part boats or challenging the builder with some custom graphics. I challenge you to find a British sea kayak builder whose website lists every possible option and prices them, most are quite happy to discuss something completely novel and work with the customer to realise the 'dream boat' - how can you even list and price an option that no-one has thought of yet?

There are several builders now (all outside of the UK as far as I know) who do use a something closer to line production and produce carbon copy boats for a good price. It's a different business model, a different way of working, and to an extent it is for a different market. Any company who has more than enough work building custom boats using archaic techniques* leaving them little time for administration is going to struggle to see the benefit of changing to a production line, updating the website, and even simply catering to the part of the market who don't know who they are.

*some of the techniques date back as far as the 1970's, ancient history I'm sure we agree.

Anyway, I feel I am being slightly naughty here, I really ought to show myself the relevant sign:

And stop pushing food through the bars.

[MarineMammal]

Gents, I LOVE and respect Valley. But their website definitely does need help.

Case in point– Apparently, the Aquanaut LV weighs 2250 lbs, i.e. in excess of one metric ton.
Who needs fiberglass when you have lead, apparently:

http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/content/ ... quanaut-lv

However, the good news is that Valley did do something about the weight issue for the Avocet LV. It comes in at a svelte 2,246 lbs:

http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/content/ ... /avocet-lv


Given time, I'm certain that Valley can crack the 2000 lb barrier. Car-topping your Valley kayak will become so much easier then.


...

[Graham T]

I remember this back at school "BUNDLE" I wonder who will end up on the bottom.

Exscuse me Oarsome I don't know if others apart from Mrs Admin hold Mr Admins hand , but the "sweets thing" I see as British humour (wonder what criticism may come for that opinion)

So if Douglas can post pics of trains (hi Douglas I hope all is good leg wise) I will give my opinion which to quote the late Brian Clough "is the only one which matters" The whole criticism of Valley and their marketing has come about IMO because some people do not wish Valley to disappear as a company full stop, they recognise even a great company can go to the wall and quickly if things are allowed to slide relative to strong competition.
I can see most other arguments and points of view in this thread and agree of themselves they hold truth (helmet on). On the one hand it is their business and their call how they run it. I do seek any and all information I can get before making a short list of Kayaks to drop some money on. I like to get clear up to date facts from the manufacturers web site. But you know what kayaks manufacture while it is changing used to be what I would call a small cottage industry in relative terms. There has been criticism of most if not all manufacturers for one thing or another SKUK quality control for one P&H skeg system, a thread of a tin can Valley boat delivered I think to a Scandinavian country, plagerism and poor quality of designs ripped off from Tiderace etc etc.
In the end I have done relatively little paddling perhaps seven weeks spread over a good several years, but have experience of buying the following kayaks

SKUK Greenlander Pro
Valley Knordkapp LV and Anas Acuta
Tiderace (Polish ) Xcite (2nd hand), (Finish) Xplore S, and (Thailand) Xtreme

In every case it was the design I was interested as the number one priority, provided I thought the construction to be sound. I have dealt with one bad retailer, and at all other times used online search for reviews trying to look past what may be subjective, and allowing for another paddlers size and weight etc. I have always spoken in person if possible to those I think might give an insight to suitability for me but in the end you are best to get your own back side into the kayak and demo.
A beginner will not usually stay in their original purchase but if keen will find out about or be exposed to most of the manufacturers available. I expect many have searched and are perhaps still searching for their ideal one kayak or changing kayaks due to changing requirements or because they have to try the new latest design.

Could Valley do better for sure, but of my list only two kayaks had no fault to be found the Knordcapp LV and the Tiderace Xtreme.
Valley are not without room to improve but they have been very helpful to me in person as were Nigel Dennis and Knoydart (Dan & Aled both)
Did the shortcomings found before purchase put me off not so far. If Valley became a world dominant company would some compromises happen well probably at this time. Increasing your market especially in this financial time has it's own risks. Get bigger cash flow problems expansion, now people complaining quality has dropped they are now no longer as personal, delivery is late what ever. Don't move forward oooooooops and now our market share is dropping our books are dwindling and we must market harder etc etc. It is not a simple black and white situation in my view and only Valley as pointed out before can make their choices as to priority. Bye

[Oarsome]

Once again, I'm not saying they make crappy boats, nor even implying as much. I have no experience of Valley boats, but I'd love it if (and when) I am to buy one, that they'd still be around. I'm not saying that they don't sell boats to anyone, nor implying that either.

They could make the world's best boats and give them away for cost, and I'd still think they'd need to get the website up and running, so people like me who likes to do research before making shortlists can get the information I/we need.

Sure, they make custom/ised boats. My own boat is made in black, and the oars are custom jobbies too. So it's not like I want every option listed, because if you have the money, anything is possible. However, some basic information, such as construction, dimensions, and circa weights (i.e. depending on options), and a few pictures of actual boats currently in production would make shortlisting a tad easier.

I bought my Adirondack Guide Boat sight-unseen from the US and had it "especially" imported. My first row in it was bringing it home from the customs. However, I could read a lot of information on the web, which made me able to ask the right questions, making the whole process so much easier.

My black boat, which is a "proper" coastal rowing boat (think "kayak with oars", where the other were a "canoe with oars"), I tried to compare it to the french company of such products, but seeing how difficult it was to get even a small amount of practical information, I settled on a Swedish upstart, whose website had more information than the French and as such could give me the information I wanted.
Oh, and for my black boat, I had a test run of a prototype which was too heavy at the rear, weighing too much overall, and was set up for the owner of the company. It wasn't really a good test run, to be honest, but I figured that it had potential. I would most likely have bought it even if I couldn't have a test run in the prototype. I asked specifically if they had solved the weight and weight distribution problem, and he promised they had. It turned out they had.

Had it not been for informative websites, I wouldn't have bought either boat.

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Another thing that no one seems to have noticed is that valley do, in fact, have a wide reaching internet presence. Search for reviews, news, youtube videos, through google or one of the lesser search engines and you'll find plenty of material. What's more, none of it (or very little) has been put there by ratbag marketing men, hell bent on pushing sales, rather than giving sound advice.

I saw the P&H Delphin at Perth. "Ugly as hell" I thought, but I could see where they were coming from. When I got back home and wanted to find out more, did I even, for one second, think about going near P&H website? Hell no! I got the marketing spiel from the nice guy at the trade show. What I wanted to find out was - is it actually any good?

This whole thread reeks of Death of a Salesman - anyone wanna Simonize their gelcoat?

[M-J-B]

If VCP's order books are still as full as they used to be, and as much stock is still going abroad as it used to, it could well be that they don't need the website as much as some of us do.

Perhaps, but when they realise they do need it some damage has already been done. If they feel they do not need a website then they should not do what they have done leaving it halfway, unattended and abandoned. A simple statement "We build kayaks, not webpages. Call us..." would send the message.

Whoever commented on production techniques clearly has no grasp of what they are. British built sea kayaks are hand crafted, no 2 are exactly the same, they tend to be built to order not to stock (so no or few production runs), and many customers will email or call in order to discuss individualisation of their new boat, from relatively minor things like a couple of extra or fewer RDFs in their preferred position, presence or lack of a compass recess, front bulkhead position, day hatch or not, right up to relatively major things like 3 part boats or challenging the builder with some custom graphics. I challenge you to find a British sea kayak builder whose website lists every possible option and prices them, most are quite happy to discuss something completely novel and work with the customer to realise the 'dream boat' - how can you even list and price an option that no-one has thought of yet?

I commented on production techniques earlier and basically I do know what it takes to build a kayak and I know something about different resins, fibres, layups, bagging, infusion etc. I know Valley builds to order but I also know they build to stock. Valley never replied to my inquiry on custom options and a couple of retailers told me Valley no longer offers the whole palette of options they used to advertise in their brochure. I was told, for instance, that a full carbon/kevlar deck is no longer available on a Nordkapp because those are so difficult to laminate correctly. When I was about to order custom built another retailer told me "pro kevlar" and "ultra kevlar" constructions are no longer offered but instead Valley offers an alternative that is somewhere between the two. Also I was told that RDFs can no longer be moved, only added. When I asked about a different seat I was told that unless I wanted to sit on foam I should source a replacement somewhere else as Valley only offers one plastic seat nowadays. One Valley retailer in Germany outright asked why on earth I would want a Valley at all.

If Valley still provides the service you suggest then it would seem that they certainly select their customers and perhaps do more for the UK market than any other. Too many dealers are confused about how Valley operates and what they actually offer and as much as I would like communicating directly with the manufacturer I understand it is not always feasible with the volumes Valley is producing. I must admit I haven't attempted contacting Valley directly for two years so my experiences date a bit earlier but as the retailers seem as confused as before and the webiste is clearly outdated I do not believe much has changed.

I agree that no two Valley kayaks are the same. I appreciate hand built (as long as it's not the hands of children doing the work) but with hand built I would expect decent QC. My kelvar-carbon hull leaked by the skeg box due to flimsy lamination work and the newly designed skeg slider recess has air trapped under the gelcoat. One bulkhead was not glassed in at all but according to Valley that's how it is supposed to be... but every other Valley carbon/kevlar hull I have seen (before and after my purchase) has had all bulkheads laminated so I laminated it myself. I did it with epoxy as I could not find a definite answer to what resin my boat is built with (again, asked three different sources and got three different answers). Flaws like these is something I would expect from early Estonian builds (not the current Tahe lineup) and the Chinese but I would not expect it from something that is supposed to be state of the art. Don't get me wrong, I have also seen many truly impeccable Valley kayaks and I consider the flaws in my kayak as minor and easy to repair.

It's not the Valley build quality or marketing that keeps me coming back to Valley as there are competitors that nowadays do as good or a better job in those areas. The reason for me is solely how the boat behaves and I believe some day there will be a manufacturer who introduces a design I like more than my current Nordkapp LV. If Valley did a better job at communicating (the web would be a cheap and effective way of doing it) and provided an easier path to fixing quality issues that slip thru I wouldn't bother checking what the competitors are doing. That would be a goal for any business; customers so satisfied that they don't care what the competitors do.

[watt]

I think we can all agree that their (great) boats deserve a better website. It's 2012, the Internet is THE source of information nowadays, but Valley's "latest news" are more than a year old and there are still many informations missing ("feature currently unavailabe" for over a year).
http://www.valleycanoeproducts.com would need one minute to write a forward to their actual website...

Once again - gimme a Nordlow and I'll be happy to update their site.... *grin*

[rockall]

Kayaks n'Beer....

Search for reviews, news, youtube videos, through google or one of the lesser search engines and you'll find plenty of material. What's more, none of it (or very little) has been put there by ratbag marketing men, hell bent on pushing sales

But it might have been put there by online magazines, dealers, bloggers with self-interests etc. etc. No sweat, as long as the info doesn't come from the horse's mouth we're safe! And god forbid, Valley would never be hell bent on pushing sales, surely?.. for they are holier than thou and me...and already have full order books.

Do you seriously believe, though, that people have the time to trawl around google and wade through all the chaff to get to a few choice nuggets of information which may or may not exist, and which may or may not be helpful to them? Is it really expecting too much in this day and age for a major player in the market and a global brand to provide some solid, accurate and uptodate information on their own products? I'd suggest that as a major player and global brand they should really be leading the way, but that concept might be beyond the grasp of many here.

I saw the P&H Delphin at Perth. "Ugly as hell" I thought, but I could see where they were coming from. When I got back home and wanted to find out more, did I even, for one second, think about going near P&H website? Hell no! I got the marketing spiel from the nice guy at the trade show. What I wanted to find out was - is it actually any good?

I'm sure anyone would like to know how good it is! But they will have their own way of finding out. Not everyone can go to Perth or hang around trade shows (you didn't talk to any ratbag marketing men there, did you?...) Come out of your bubble and try and see the wider picture, beyond the cosy coterie of knowledgeable, already-sold British sea kayakers. Perhaps the most pertinent post in this thread was by merimies - let's recap:

One woman from our club recently bought an Thermoform Avocet. It is a neat boat and she is really happy with it. On the web it is almost impossibel to find any information. Are they are sold in UK at all? I think if Valley is proud of the boat, they also could advertise it.
Hope they will go strong a long time, as I appreciate their boats very much.
Klaus

I don't know where Klaus is located, but you can get the drift. He's seen a boat and admires it, but he can't get any information about it. He may be new to sea kayaking, he may not be 'in the know' yet, he maybe hasn't spent enough time trawling around google and sifting loads of information. But regardless, in the nicest of ways Klaus's posting is a plea; more information, please, Mr.Valley. Beyond the shores of our small cosy satisfied-customer mindset, there may be hundreds of Klauses, thousands even.

Jim.....

British built sea kayaks are hand crafted, no 2 are exactly the same, they tend to be built to order not to stock

So we are discounting Valley's thermoformed boats from any reckoning here?

There are several builders now (all outside of the UK as far as I know) who do use a something closer to line production and produce carbon copy boats for a good price. It's a different business model, a different way of working, and to an extent it is for a different market.

Which market is that, then?

[No Kayak]

It should also be noted that some of these "custom" boat builders have been seriously discussing moving production to those Far East production lines.