Is something wrong at Valley...

[orton1966]

Hi all,

We do appreciate the interest in the new site, however considering it only went live last week with a very clear statement that it was work in progress I think a couple of posts recently are unduly harsh, verging on malicious. When made live we made a very clear statement that it would take a couple of weeks before every aspect was, as we would want it. We made a decision to go live a little early because of the concern and criticism about our lack of web presence.

During the past week several updates have been made, however these are not always the obvious things people notice, there will be more updates this week, and next until everything is right. Whilst everything is not perfect, yet, the vast majority of direct responses have been positive.

The site was first populated by the developers using a mix of text from the last websites, catalogues and a little new text. The site has been created with a CMS system allowing us to edit all areas, all text will be review, edited and if necessary re-written in time but first priority is to fill the blank areas and get all areas functioning and this is what we are working on now.

Fact is we are still a relatively small privately owned company who care about the products we make, today I personally answered 30 email enquires directed through the new site, mostly positive. When new text does find its way onto the site it will have been written by us, not a marketing company or department, it will be written by the very people who design, make and paddle the boats. Not every company can say this but that approach does take a little longer and sometimes goes not so smoothly, so I urge people to be constructive if they are criticising and to appreciate that we also realise the site is still a work in progress but we are working on it

Kind regards

Peter

[wilsoj2]

Hi all,

Fact is we are still a relatively small privately owned company who care about the products we make, today I personally answered 30 email enquires directed through the new site, mostly positive. When new text does find its way onto the site it will have been written by us, not a marketing company or department, it will be written by the very people who design, make and paddle the boats. Not every company can say this but that approach does take a little longer and sometimes goes not so smoothly, so I urge people to be constructive if they are criticising and to appreciate that we also realise the site is still a work in progress but we are working on it

Kind regards

Peter

(emphasis added by JRW)

I think Valley being the oldest, most famous and possibly largest sea kayak manufacturer in the UK, people tend to forget that it is still a very small company, owned and run by enthusiasts.

I still find it impressive that Peter takes the time to post here, and elsewhere, to keep paddlers abreast of developments and to respond to queries. He obviously cares and gives weight to paddlers' concerns.

I own Valley and NDK sea kayaks and have corresponded directly with Nigel Dennis and Peter Orton. That is part of what is very special about this pursuit.

[M-J-B]

Just to reassure everyone - yes when the new site its live it will be hosted somewhere we have full control over. Additionally the new site is based around a content management system that allows even us Neanderthals to keep it updated.

[rant mode]

"This section of the site is under construction and will be coming soon"

Humm... Latest news dated 21/02/2011, no info about the new Gemini twins, Avocet LV measurements still not corrected... Some say composite Etain should come in three sizes but it seems like false rumours when looking at the Valley website - I dunno.

Something wrong with the CMS or is Valley satisfied with the mere possibility of keeping the site updated?

Lately the local dealer seems to prefer stocking other brands and over here the only reliable source of info about current Valley product offerings would be the web. Looking from where I stand it seems Valley marketing is failing miserably and new buyers are looking in other directions too early in their selection process. I am a great fan of Valley designed kayaks but currently I fully understand why people hesitate placing an order on one of them without even knowing the current measurements or materials and construction details. Pity :(

I could be wrong of course, perhaps Valley is making kayaks (and money) backed up by such great global demand that marketing is not needed?

[/rant mode]

There, said it! No intention to offend anyone, but I do believe there is something wrong at Valley...

[No Kayak]

There seems to be an inexplicable disdain towards dealers and customers, that's for sure.

They're not the only one in the industry, but the efforts of companies such as Tahe in engaging their dealers, customers and potential customers shows just how far behind some are trailing.

Premium brands such as Valley should not be sitting on their laurels expecting 40 years of history to automatically walk kayaks off the shelves. Any brand that is failing to have correct or up to date information on their website regards their own products cannot hide behind being "a bit busy" when trying to explain why things are not updated.

[mick m]

There seems to be an inexplicable disdain towards dealers and customers, that's for sure.

They're not the only one in the industry, but the efforts of companies such as Tahe in engaging their dealers, customers and potential customers shows just how far behind some are trailing.

Premium brands such as Valley should not be sitting on their laurels expecting 40 years of history to automatically walk kayaks off the shelves. Any brand that is failing to have correct or up to date information on their website regards their own products cannot hide behind being "a bit busy" when trying to explain why things are not updated.

As A manufacturer with a bad web page, wold you prefer somone who is IT savy or sumone who is hands on and good at what thay do making your gear ? a lot of us out ther are small , and eather dont have the IT skills or the time to lern them without our produts sufering in the work shop which do you prefer , a good website or good kit ?

[marcusdemuth]

Jason and Pete are incredibly open-minded, people focused people, who go out of their way (constantly sacrifying weekends, and evenings to help customers) and became good friends over the years. And by the way, they build incredible, sturdy, timeless, kayaks. Just pick up the phone, and you may sit 12 hours later in a demo boat or two, and/or chat with the company owners about their kayaks in an always pleasant and warm atmosphere with no sales pressure or pitches at all. These guys rock. Every day. Hallelulja!

[Oarsome]

As A manufacturer with a bad web page, wold you prefer somone who is IT savy or sumone who is hands on and good at what thay do making your gear ? a lot of us out ther are small , and eather dont have the IT skills or the time to lern them without our produts sufering in the work shop which do you prefer , a good website or good kit ?

That's a false dichotomy. Those are not the choices. I doubt the people building the actual kit is also the ones updating/programming the website. It's called "paying someone". It's not that hard. Unless, of course, you're claiming that companies with working and up-to-date websites doesn't have good kit.

[mick m]

fare from it. small operators dont have the staff , Iv payed for my new web site, and its got good bones , now I need to flesh it out, how meny peopal do you think are employed in the industry actualy making stuff , not the stuff made in Asia , but actualy made in the UK, and in my case Australia, with a partnership with a UK manufacturer .the sums just wont work out at the end of the day if we employ staff for IT. I personaly prefer to put efort into providing a more personal servace. Vally are a lot biger, but I can still not see the need for more IT.

[Oarsome]

fare from it. small operators dont have the staff , Iv payed for my new web site, and its got good bones , now I need to flesh it out, how meny peopal do you think are employed in the industry actualy making stuff , not the stuff made in Asia , but actualy made in the UK, and in my case Australia, with a partnership with a UK manufacturer .the sums just wont work out at the end of the day if we employ staff for IT. I personaly prefer to put efort into providing a more personal servace. Vally are a lot biger, but I can still not see the need for more IT.

Still a load of bollocks. You're basically arguing that when they had an up-to-date website they were unable to make good kit. Or the plethora of one-man businesses can't have an up-to-date website, and if they do, they don't do a proper job with their products.

Edit: You don't need to "employ IT staff". You can buy a website to your liking as a one-off, and then use a few hours once in a while to update it with new information. It's an investment. If you can't be bothered to communicate what you have and what you're selling, you're losing the battle.

[No Kayak]

Mick,

The world of retailing has changed immeasurably over the past decade. Consumers wanting to buy anything from a DVD to a house now use the internet to commence the vast bulk of their pre-purchase investigation.

It is not only the products people are researching, but they're also taking the opportunity to assess whether or not there's the right 'feeling' in dealing with that company. A company website is now the shop window in which potential customers judge you as a whole. If those customers look through that window and see old product presented badly with no interaction, that quite rightly places doubt.

In Valley's case, take a look at the competition they have in the marketplace- P&H, Tahe, Skim, Tiderace and even NDK are doing are far, far better job in engaging their customers and presenting their product. If I were researching a new kayak, having no prior knowledge of history (the same position as many customers would be faced with), I would look at Valley's website and think they had gone out of business at some point last year. And that would be the end of Valley in my buying selection.

You can't excuse them under the claim they don't have the resources. A professional website with a CMS system could be created in less than a month by a third party company at less than the gross profit they make from selling 4 composite kayaks. Updates to yourwebsite are then incremental and can be done by anyone proficient in language and using a PC. In other words, having an up to date web presence for a kayak manufacturer is neither necessarily expensive in time or money.

Far from thinking Pete and Jason have taken Valley forward since they bought it, the impression you get is they have let oit stagnate. Their position in the marketplace is shrinking and if they continue at the current rate, the best they'll be able to aim for in the next three years will be an offer from another to buy the company and actually take it forward.

[Mark R]

More brave words from Mr Anonymous.

[No Kayak]

More brave words from Mr Anonymous.

Is there anything in my observations you disagree with?

[Pete]

Edit: You don't need to "employ IT staff". You can buy a website to your liking as a one-off, and then use a few hours once in a while to update it with new information. It's an investment. If you can't be bothered to communicate what you have and what you're selling, you're losing the battle.

Of course to make an investment & continue making it, you need to make a profit. I work in kayak retail and we pride ourselves on doing our best to offer a good service and with everyone wanting "BCU" or "club discount" on even their smallest purchases (like a replacement hatch cover that you've had in stock for 12 months just so that it's their and available when a customer needs it), it's increasingly difficult to turn a profit and maintain the stock levels required to offer that level of service. Customers want to be able to go and finger the goods, try for size, run their hands down the lines of a new boat and then price match with on-line warehouses. The numbers don't stack up and a couple of UK stores have already closed in the last 12 months.

[Oarsome]

Of course to make an investment & continue making it, you need to make a profit.

No, you don't. Just like you need to invest money to start your business and make a profit down the line, you need to invest to make the money keep flowing into the company. If your company isn't making enough money, it would be a really bad decision to let the "shop window" (as NK put it) fall to the wayside. That won't bring the profit magically into the company.

I work in kayak retail and we pride ourselves on doing our best to offer a good service and with everyone wanting "BCU" or "club discount" on even their smallest purchases (like a replacement hatch cover that you've had in stock for 12 months just so that it's their and available when a customer needs it), it's increasingly difficult to turn a profit and maintain the stock levels required to offer that level of service. Customers want to be able to go and finger the goods, try for size, run their hands down the lines of a new boat and then price match with on-line warehouses. The numbers don't stack up and a couple of UK stores have already closed in the last 12 months.

And if we are to follow the example of "don't advertise or keep the information up-to-date until you magically make a profit", many more are soon to follow.

[No Kayak]

Let's not feel too sorry for the manufacturer in terms of margin.

It will cost Valley somewhere in the region of £700 (max) to build a composite kayak, then sell it to a dealer for around £1300 - £1400 net, so the margin per kayak is healthy. The challenge is in selling enough of them, rather than manufacture.

If you were to have an educated guess as to what robs Valley of resources, it would more likely be Big Dog and the cost and time of developing new plastic models in a hugely competetive and fast moving river market. The cost of a plastic mould is going to end up being 10x that for a composite, assuming Valley make their own composite moulds and outsource plastic production. What gets spent on Big Dog can't be spent on Valley or Northshore.

[EK Sydney]

Far from thinking Pete and Jason have taken Valley forward since they bought it, the impression you get is they have let it stagnate.

This bears commenting on, as a Valley dealer in Australia (just so you know who I am and that I have an interest here).
Impressions will be quickly forgotten once you get into a design these guys have actually put into the market. In my eyes that's the reformatted Nordkapp, the Nordkapp LV, the Avocet LV, the plastic Valley boats, and now the Etain range. The naysayers will tell you they're the past, rockered Brit designs that have no relevance as we speed towards the future in Tarans, Epics, whatever.
Then you get into one of these modern Valley designs in the middle of deep sh*t, and understand that the guys who designed them know a thing or two about the interaction of kayak hulls and rough water. How do I know? Because I have taken each and every one of them out into serious stuff and then compared them to other boats we sell, and other boats who have touted to my business. I'm not obliged to, I'm not a manufacturer, but the big water performance speaks for itself.
Give me the lag in the web site against the the continuing modern interpretation on kayak designs that these guys are bringing to the market any day, over the opposite scenario, and there are plenty of manufacturers out there with big claims, and no way near the hull designs to back them up.
I'm not sure what the fuss is about here, is it a concern that Valley should be doing better, or more a likely a crack at them from some anonymous forum posters? And No Kayak I try not to be a skeptic, but for a bloke with no kayak you sound like a very well informed industry person who might like to come clean on any interests you may have, I stand to be corrected......
Plenty of kayak companies like Valley get gobbled up and their production moved to cheaper spots in the global labor market, Valley continue to be such a bloody icon, and not just in name but in the boats they churn out, in my view a treasure.
Mark Sundin.

[Mark R]

More brave words from Mr Anonymous.

Is there anything in my observations you disagree with?

I strongly disagree with your willingness to make attacks on named individuals, whilst too spineless to put your own name to it.

[Oarsome]

More brave words from Mr Anonymous.

Is there anything in my observations you disagree with?

I strongly disagree with your willingness to make attacks on named individuals, whilst too spineless to put your own name to it.

And what would putting a name to NK mean to anything he said? He's not the one owning the company in question. That's like saying you can't criticize, say, the politics uttered by the Prime Minister. Not that owning a company is in the same league as running a country, but being anonymous has no bearing on the arguments.

Me, I'm "Oarsome" (because I use oars, not because I'm awesome), and if you direct it at that nick name, you're still directing it to me as a real person.

It seems quite the red herring to focus on him being anonymous instead of what is actually going on.

[Oarsome]

Give me the lag in the web site against the the continuing modern interpretation on kayak designs that these guys are bringing to the market any day, over the opposite scenario, and there are plenty of manufacturers out there with big claims, and no way near the hull designs to back them up.

It's still a false dichotomy. There's no need to have to choose between the two.

I'm not sure what the fuss is about here, is it a concern that Valley should be doing better, or more a likely a crack at them from some anonymous forum posters? And No Kayak I try not to be a skeptic, but for a bloke with no kayak you sound like a very well informed industry person who might like to come clean on any interests you may have, I stand to be corrected......
Plenty of kayak companies like Valley get gobbled up and their production moved to cheaper spots in the global labor market, Valley continue to be such a bloody icon, and not just in name but in the boats they churn out, in my view a treasure.
.

I'm not giving my name, but personally, I don't kayak. I row instead in the same places people sea kayak and use my boat(s) as one would use a sea kayak.One of the reasons for not choosing a kayak is that I'm hypersensitive to many foams, including neoprene.
The reason I entered into this debate is that I think choice is good, and information about those choices are great. It's sad when small manufacturers close the doors and give up. They should pay someone to do a proper job to get the information about their kayaks out there.
There are plenty of excuses, and if you reread this thread, it has been years of excuses upon excuses.

[EK Sydney]

Oarsome, as the owner of a small business, I'd invite you to walk a mile in my shoes or anyone else owning a business of Valleys size shoes thereabouts. We aren't talking about Microsoft here, and I would say that mate, you're a pretty hard judge.
Looking back through the thread as you recommend, I'd also say there is a small percentage of industry mischief going down. The people who read this forum can smell BS a mile off, it's what makes it a great read and something worthwhile to belong to and contribute to.
Mark.

[Oarsome]

I have a one man business myself (not boating related), and most of my friends have small businesses too (most are one or two man businesses). Am I harsh? I don't think so. I think of myself as being realistic: You need to get the word out there, and get the word out professionally. Everything else is just excuses, and it just won't fly in the long run. You need to bring in new customers, and you need to give the could-be customers the information they want, the information they use to compare you and your products to the competition.

[No Kayak]

I recently worked in the industry, and no longer do. I left the industry and who I worked for on good terms. Aside from that, I have no unfair axe to grind against anyone specific nor the need to unduly support anyone specific.

Therefore who I worked for is not important.

If I make baseless points presented as fact and I'm proven to be wrong, I'll hold my hands up. If something I say is right, then what does it matter who says it or whether you have their life story in front of you when they do?

What I do have is observations and experience from working with a lot of the manufacturers and suppliers out there and I think there's value in people who will never get the opportunity to have such info.

Isn't this forum the perfect place for that information to be provided?

If I or anyone else make unfair comments on here, this forum also provides perfect opportunity for them to set the record straight or even take action outside of the forum were it to be defamatory.

[Mark R]

I recently worked in the industry, and no longer do. I left the industry and who I worked for on good terms.

So you claim. Why should we believe you, or anything you say? You give so much credit to your own opinions, that you won't even sign your own name to them.

I really don't mind anonymity on this site...but the way that it is used can sometimes be very telling.

I have no unfair axe to grind against anyone specific nor the need to unduly support anyone specific.

I think you need to read back over some of your own posting history.

[No Kayak]

Mark, I do remember you taking umbridge when I suggested some reviews in paddling magazines are perhaps not so genuine, particularly when manufacturers give people boats for free to review.

Remind me again, do you have any boats long-term loaned for free from any manufacturers where you've given your impressions of them on this site?

I repeat, the solution to someone not agreeing with anything factual I say is to come back with the alternate case. Just criticising me because like 99% of other posters on this site I use a pseudonym seems an unhealthy diversion from discussing the issue.

Is Valley doing its customers, potential customers and, most importantly, itself disservice by the way it interacts with its customers? In my opinion it does- which is a shame because it does have a long history, has produced some good products and is run by genuinely enthusiastic paddlers.

If you dislike my opinion, give an alternative to show where what I've said is unreasonable or wrong. If you dislike the principle of me giving an opinion, why on earth are you running an internet discussion forum?

[Oarsome]

I really don't mind anonymity on this site...but the way that it is used can sometimes be very telling.

Again, it seems that the moment someone is less than favourable towards certain decisions (or non-decisions, as it were), you can't stand anonymity and start focusing on that part solely.

Let's applaud Valley's excuses and unwillingness to get the information out there to the customers. We wouldn't want an informed customer base. No, that would be horrendous. Instead, let's attack people's anonymity for pointing out the short comings of a company who thinks that giving information is too much trouble.

Even if No Kayak were still in the industry, it doesn't matter. It's still not that hard to pay a third party a small amount of money to make a website and spend an hour once in a while to update it.

[Mark R]

Mark, I do remember you taking umbridge when I suggested some reviews in paddling magazines are perhaps not so genuine, particularly when manufacturers give people boats for free to review.

No...I took umbrage at you making anonymous accusations that you refused to back up with any evidence...see link below.

Remind me again, do you have any boats long-term loaned for free from any manufacturers where you've given your impressions of them on this site?

You already know the answer to that (link below). And no, for the reasons already explained (link below) you won't be reading what I think of the boat here on UKRGB.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=85363&p=607475

Now, how about you...

Are you willing to explain which specific sea kayak shop and/ or manufacturer you have been extremely closely connected to/ employed by? Oh no, of course not. As you explained in that previous thread, you feel it would be inappropriate of you to drop your anonymity and compromise them. But of course, you feel it's not inappropriate to hide behind that anonymity whilst making unsubstantiated accusations against/ attacks on rival companies and their staff.

[No Kayak]

So Mark, what is YOUR opinion on how Valley are presenting themselves to customers?

Let's hope the result of this thread is Valley getting their backsides into gear and updating their website.

Wouldn't you agree that would be a decent coup for paddlers looking into buying their products, or is 2011 still the 'Year of the Etain'?

[Mark R]

Now, how about you...

Are you willing to explain which specific sea kayak shop and/ or manufacturer you have been extremely closely connected to/ employed by?

I'll take your following response as a 'no', then.

[No Kayak]

Now, how about you...

Are you willing to explain which specific sea kayak shop and/ or manufacturer you have been extremely closely connected to/ employed by?

I'll take your following response as a 'no', then.

I'm not employed by or involved with any company in the industry. My personal opinions are purely my own and do not and should not be classed as representing those of any former employer.

With respect to that, it is of absolutely no relevance who I worked for or with.

I note your opinion on the subject at hand is still missing as you attempt to divert the conversation into something entirely irrelevant.

[Mark R]

My personal opinions are purely my own and do not and should not be classed as representing those of any former employer.

And yet...you've now taken an anonymous pop on this forum against every major manufacturer...except the one you were associated with.


My feelings on the Valley website? Actually, I couldn't give a hoot...I haven't even looked at it in the last year or two, same goes for all of them. When I want to know the dimensions of a boat, I Google it, look on FB pages or ask here, whatever. In truth boat specs are not the sort of thing I lie awake at nights obsessing over. If web marketing really is a big deal, presumably market forces will take care of Valley...few would argue otherwise.

My feelings on folk criticising named individuals without admitting to their own agenda/ commercial connections? Rather stronger. But I've made my feeling pretty clear by now, I have nothing more to add.