Forward paddling style

[hartfield]

Hi all,

I've been watching the dvd's etc and the coaches seem now to recommend letting the paddle stay in the water longer and drift wide of the boat.
Is this aiding trunk rotation? The marathon/racing paddlers do this, but they seem to use wing paddles.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of this stroke. I am aware of straight arms, pushing with legs etc, but can't see why I would want to finish my stroke out wide.

any help appreciated

[Chris Bolton]

It's primarily because of the wing paddles. Whether they actually work like an aircraft wing is debatable, but the paddle has a lip on the top/outside edge so that water spills smoothly off the inside edge and the paddle moves out from the boat into cleaner water. So less of your energy is lost making eddies behind the paddle. I think the trunk rotation may helps as well - you can do a 'Wing' stroke with any blades but I don't know whether it's any more effective - there's probably some scientific testing been done somewhere.

Chris

[Hengle]

Hi Hartfield
Any paddle will wing - just wings do it better, the easy reason to get your head round (other than the clean water that Chris mentions) is that the hypotenuse (spelling) of a triangle is longer than the side so if the paddle tracks away from the boat the stroke will be longer - this is the route of a wing being more efficient.

By letting the paddle track away it also allows better use of the trunk and Hips and legs where as when the paddle stays along the side of the boat the main power comes from the bicep.

the third reason is stability and a clean set up for the next stroke its harder to take the paddle past your hip if its also tracking out to the side thus allowing for cleaner air work and due to not taking the paddle back the body stays in the neutral balanced position

Hope this helps
Hengle

[MikeB]

I paddle with a guy who is a marathon paddler as well as a superb sea paddler - watching his paddle action, it's lots of rotation, straight arms and an "out to the side" finish He uses a (non wing) Lendal Powermaster or Nordkapp (cant remember which). Mike.

[hartfield]

Many thanks for that. So have I got this right......., by allowing the paddle to go wide increases the length of the stroke, therefore more power can be applied to the blade, increasing trunk rotation. By still taking it out at the hips the turning effect is reduced.

Not being very mathematical are there any studies that demonstrate this!

Thanks again

[Bruce Jolliffe]

I don't think you need studies of paddling to demonstrate basic physics or vector mechanics.

The longer the blade surface (power face) is perpendicular to the direction of travel the more efficient the transfer of power will be.

[Bruce Jolliffe]

However, if you want to demonstrate this, get a spoon and a tap.

Turn the tap on full.

Hold the spoon under the tap at an angle and observe the inefficient transfer or power.

Now repeat the experiment holding the spoon perpendicular to the direction of flow (i.e. perfectly flat). Now observe the truly efficient mess you have made.

[hartfield]

Hi Bruce,

I get that, I've always tried to keep my paddle vertical (high angle/shorter paddle length etc), so why do you allow the paddle to drift wide once past your knees (marathon racers, folks paddling with wings). My head says that forward momentum will be lost and you will add in some form of turning momentum. If it does increase speed/distance travelled what is the optimum amount of drift and when does it start?

[Hengle]

When paddling a straight running boat, the turning moment is less (and the point of pivot is further back) so that is less of an issue than it would be in a white water style boat. to determine how far out the paddle goes (its power not drift) its about keeping the shaft parallel to the shoulders and the shoulders directly above the hips.

Also when teaching a sweep stroke we commonly divide the stroke into thirds with first and last third doing the turning and the section in the middle having a lesser effect on the steering this is also true whilst paddling forwards

Hengle

[Ken_T]

Hi Hartfield,
Letting the paddle move out wide does cause a turning moment that a long hull like a seakayaks resists. The reduction in efficiency from this effect is more than made up for by the increase in biomechanical efficiency from using more & larger muscles.
Ken

[hartfield]

So by allowing the paddle to drift it has nothing to do with longer stroke and hypotenuse equation, its about keeping the recruitment of large muscles through the entire stroke. As swimmers we were always told to do an S shape underwater when doing front crawl, as that we were always pulling past still water, does the drift not replicate this effect.

Cheers

Steve

[Bruce Jolliffe]

Hi Steve,

I've always tried to keep my paddle vertical (high angle/shorter paddle length etc), so why do you allow the paddle to drift wide once past your knees

In answer to this question I would suggest that you need to do this to gain a smooth release of the blade from the water. A well formed (i.e. consistent at the elbow) high angled stroke that remains high angled and narrow to the boat all the way through will lift water no matter how much you rotate your torso.

A stroke that drops angle and moves out at the side can release the blade without lifting water. Combine that with what the others said and you've got a good efficient power delivery throughout with less drag at the end.

I hope that makes sense, I just sat on the end of my bed for a few minutes 'air paddling'.

[jamesl2play]

Not being very mathematical are there any studies that demonstrate this!

Thanks again

I used to have a book called 'The science of canoeing' by Dr Richard Cox.

For me, his analysis was very clear and helped me a lot with my forward paddling.
Might be a bit dated now with the advent of wing paddles but may well be worth a look if you can find a copy

[Hengle]

Science of Canoeing as a download http://canoesouth.org/uploads/The%20Science%20of%20Canoeing(1).pdf
its a big one though
Hengle

[hartfield]

Many thanks folks. I'm just one of these people that need to know why people advocate certain techniques. I'm not sure, but it appears that between we all have a slightly different interpretation of why we do things within the forward paddle stroke. Just need to find an olympic coach now, for some more answers, ideas, conjecture!

Steve

[hartfield]

Hi Hengle,

Wow, many thanks,that will get the brain working!!

Steve

[JohnA]

Interesting, no one has mentioned the word hydrofoil. I always thought the shape of the wing was such that water flows faster off the curved front than across the relatively flat back (ignoring the cavity which is just dead space). That increased speed was said to generate a force towards the front (you might think of as non-vertical lift, hence the name wing paddle) which resists slippage of the paddle through the water, increasing efficiency just by reducing slippage. Allowing the wing to "fly" out to the side minimises slippage to the rear. I'm no expert, I have no idea if this is correct in terms of physics or fluid dynamics, just how it was explained to me.

All I know is I REALLY like my wing.

[Hengle]

Yes in theory the wing paddle does travel forwards through the water along with the paddler as opposted to the flat blade that should stay stationary, however all the tests that I have seen have been done on flat water and with a racing style wing as the design of the paddle becomes more relaxed or the water becomes more rough I suspect that this benefit is lost.

In perfect condtions with good technique a wing paddle is supposed to produce between 3 and 10% advantage however the majority of marathon paddlers in the UK up to regional standard (div 3) dont have sufficiently good technique to benefit fully.

The major advantage for a lot of paddlers using the wing is the additional lock (grip) it provides on the water which helps to increase stability.

Another good thing to try for your technique when playing around is to put your heals further apart than your toes, this should help to aline the pelvis to allow for rotation coming from the legs rather than the waist.

Hengle

[Owen]

Another good thing to try for your technique when playing around is to put your heals further apart than your toes, this should help to aline the pelvis to allow for rotation coming from the legs rather than the waist.

Hengle

You must have either very small feet or a very wide kayak, no chance of doing this in my boat.

[Jim]

JohnA - Hydrofoil, wing, sail, airscrew, screw propeller, skeg, rudder, paddle, oar - they all work on the same basic principles, flow of fluid onto a surface.

Used in the whitewater paddlers vertical blade close in position a regular paddle is pretty much stalled out, that is it can only generate a force directly proportional to the weight of fluid it catches - like a spinnaker which can only travel at wind speed when directly downwind.
Even if you relax the shaft angle the blade is still stalled out if you are keeping the blade perpendicular to the direction of pull.

If you start to sweep the blade out from the boat as you draw it towards you the flow (it matters not that water may be still and the paddle moving) is now hitting the blade at an angle and it starts to develop hydrodynamic lift. You don't need a wing paddle to try this.

Apart from sliding sideways it seems from my little experience that a wing paddle is also tilted slightly forward at the top so as you slide it through the stroke it also pulls slightly down which gives the feeling of engagement and I guess is why they feel like they add stability. Again you can do this with your regular paddle, the top forward is a bit tricky because your ovals won't be set for it and if you overrotate the paddle will catch and you might fall in towards it, so start out gently. Once you get the hang of it you will feel you are getting more power out of your normal paddle, whether you actually are is for the sports scientists to work out!

Owen - you don't need a particularly wide kayak to get your heels wider than your toes, but there will be some it is not possible in. Basically most of us tend to sit frong legged and pigeon toed like a whitewater or GP boat seating position, for maximum paddling efficiency you need your knees up and possibly the foortrest further forward so your toes are further forward than your heels - as a whitewater paddler originally I tended not to do this in the Sea King but I could, in the Taran the rudder track, foot pedals and thigh braces only really work properly if I sit properly, for one thing I have to curl my toes over the pedal to move the rudder.

[PeterG]

JohnA - Hydrofoil, wing, sail, airscrew, screw propeller, skeg, rudder, paddle, oar - they all work on the same basic principles, flow of fluid onto a surface.

Used in the whitewater paddlers vertical blade close in position a regular paddle is pretty much stalled out, that is it can only generate a force directly proportional to the weight of fluid it catches - like a spinnaker which can only travel at wind speed when directly downwind.
Even if you relax the shaft angle the blade is still stalled out if you are keeping the blade perpendicular to the direction of pull.

If you start to sweep the blade out from the boat as you draw it towards you the flow (it matters not that water may be still and the paddle moving) is now hitting the blade at an angle and it starts to develop hydrodynamic lift. You don't need a wing paddle to try this.

Apart from sliding sideways it seems from my little experience that a wing paddle is also tilted slightly forward at the top so as you slide it through the stroke it also pulls slightly down which gives the feeling of engagement and I guess is why they feel like they add stability. Again you can do this with your regular paddle, the top forward is a bit tricky because your ovals won't be set for it and if you overrotate the paddle will catch and you might fall in towards it, so start out gently. Once you get the hang of it you will feel you are getting more power out of your normal paddle, whether you actually are is for the sports scientists to work out!

Welcome to greenland style; now all that remains is for you to buy the stick!

[davebrads]

I have no experience of wings, I'm really a white water paddler, the reason I dip into this forum is because I do a little surfing on the side, so I have no need of wings.

It is interesting how wide the sprint/marathon paddlers take the blade during the stroke. You would expect that this would create problems with the bow yawing except for the fact that the boat shape means that they don't want to turn at all. I guess in a sea kayak which do turn a bit at least this might be more of a problem.

However, in a good forward stroke in a slalom boat the blade is still taken away from the boat (though not as far as with wings), and although there is a little yaw, it is nowhere near as much as you would think given how easily these boats turn, so something else must be going on. Perhaps it is because the paddlers is also driving down the shaft with the top hand this allows them to hold the boat straight. I did a little experimentation last night in my slalom C1 with seeing how wide I could paddle and still hold the boat on line, and it was a lot further out than I would have expected.

What I do know from observation is that if you try to keep the blade close to the boat it means that you have to use your arms a lot more during the stroke.

[Keith White]

Hi all,

I've been watching the dvd's etc and the coaches seem now to recommend letting the paddle stay in the water longer and drift wide of the boat.
Is this aiding trunk rotation? The marathon/racing paddlers do this, but they seem to use wing paddles.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of this stroke. I am aware of straight arms, pushing with legs etc, but can't see why I would want to finish my stroke out wide.

any help appreciated

I find this works well when using my GP and Euro bladed paddles.

Lifting the blade clear of the water by running it wider helps stop you lift water (essentially pulling the bow down).
I've noticed I can paddle at 4 knots with my GP using a standard stroke yet, for no extra effort, almost 1/2 knot faster using the wing style.

[PhilAyr]

Davebrads said :

What I do know from observation is that if you try to keep the blade close to the boat it means that you have to use your arms a lot more during the stroke.

Couldn't agree more ! I find that by moving the paddle out slightly towards the end of the stroke helps with torso rotation, and on a long trip reduces fatigue in the arms. Getting out of the boat and attempting to stand up with tired legs is another problem :-) !!

Phil

[Selkie]

Having spent a long time sea kayaking and thinking I had a pretty good forward stroke. I moved into surfskis this year and have had the biggest and most beneficial learning curve of my paddling career.

I am still learning and improving by paddling everyday, but this is what I have learnt so far.

1. Wing blades will out perform a flat blade under any conditions

2. 80% of the power comes from a good catch and the early part of the stoke. This is why the wing goes to the side for and early exit roughly level with the knee in order to set up for the power part of the stroke as opposed to wasting time/energy keeping the blade in the water drawing past the paddle where there is little power. This side action also allows the arms/wrists to be straighter for more effective torso rotation into the catch further forward for where the power is. This is, I think how Ivan Lawler (6 times world champ and coach) put it to me. At least it feels right to me and the kayak certainly flies with less effort.

3. Shorter paddle, higher cadence is more efficient and effective and requires less less energy (low gearing).

4. Despite the many myths about wings, I have not found a single sea kayak stoke that does not work with a wing. Most work much better and give more support. Due the the increased effectiveness of the wing, you just need angle the blade less for say a bow rudder. Rolling is effortless.

6. You do not need to months to adapt to a wing. By my second session. During first couple of paddles I found the wing gave me feedback by identifying minor flaws in my stroke and by tuning in I corrected my stroke. By the 3rd session, the wing already felt so good, that my top range sea paddles felt like shovels and required more effort for less reward.

I believe I read that Geoff Allen has also found the benefits of Epic mid wing on his record trip around Ireland. I started with a mid but have now reduced to the Epic small/mid. I only wish I had not listened to so many wing doubters in the sea kayak world and starting using one long ago.

[nickcrowhurst]

Last year a couple of friends in the USA suggested at the end of a trip together that Erindors and I should try out their wing paddles in our double sea kayak (Wilderness Systems Double Vision). We had read that one should slice the blades out sideways and rotate well, but we had never used wings before. We flew! I had the GPS running, and confirmed the high speed for the force exerted in comparison to our Euro blades. I was very surprised at this, and the soft feel of the slicing blade.
Nick.