Which Sea Kayak

[Sea rider]

Hi guys I am looking into buying a sea kayak. Its going to be my first kayak although I have done lots of W/W paddling and have a good role.I have been in a sea kayak a few times so do have a bit of experience.My question is I have narrowed it down to three kayaks and it is definately going to be one of these as they are right for my size and they are the ones I like after a bit of research. The three boats I have in mind are
Rockpool Alaw Bach
P&H Cetus MV
Tiderace Xplore S
I know I need to demmo the boats but I would like to get a bit of feedback first from you guys on what your thoughts are as regards to the three boats in question.Maybe one stands out from the rest as a better boat.I will be mainly using it for day paddles with the odd overnighter and maybe a weekend away.Mainly North Wales Anglesey Lyyn them type of places.Just wondering what peoples thoughts are that maybe own one of the above boats or possibly paddled all of them.
Cheers

[Summit to Sea]

The three you've chosen are all quite different in their own way.

As you say, demo is the way forward, we run regular demo weekends where you can try boats head to head before a full or half day (depending on the preferences of the participants and the demand for specific boats) in the boat that you think you get on best with.

We can have all three of those boats here for you to try, our next demo weekend is 17-18/3/12.

Boat selection is a VERY personal thing.

Happy Paddling,
Pete

[lg18]

I have paddled (well, demo'd) a Rockpool Alaw Bach and Tiderace Xplore S, but can't comment on the Cetus - supposed to be quite a voluminous expedition boat(?).

The first 2 are quite different - it is the Tiderace Xcite that is most similar to the Rockpool Alaw Bach I think - they (Xcite and Alaw Bach) are both great for playing in tides/surf and rock-hopping. I think the Xplore is more the fast, straight-line expeditiony-style counterpart of the Xcite. So it depends on what style of paddling you like - straight line A-B, or playing/rock-hopping? It also depends a lot on your size. At 5ft 5 and 57Kg with thin legs, the Xplore S fitted me nicely, but the Alaw Bach (and Xcite) were much too big in the cockpit for me.

As for which is the "better" boat - I'd venture to say they are all absolutely superb, it just depends on what feel you want and which one happens to make you smile more when you try them!

Lucy

[johnb]

Another vote for the XploreS for the vertically challenged. I'm 5'7" with short legs and the XploreS cockpit ergonomics was the main reason I bought one. I was after a reasonably fast A-B boat so it fitted the bill. Feels more tippy than the Alaw and the Cetus, but I've not really compared them in the same conditions on the same day.

[Fast Pat]

I will be mainly using it for day paddles with the odd overnighter and maybe a weekend away.Mainly North Wales Anglesey Lyyn them type of places.Just wondering what peoples thoughts are that maybe own one of the above boats or possibly paddled all of them.
Cheers

As others have said try and try again, it can be an expensive mistake - take Pete up on his offer of the demo day.

That daid I paddled the Alaw (a Alaw Bach with a pleasure pod) for about four years, currently paddle a GT but have access to a fleet of Alaw Bach TCC which I sometime use when coaching, I like Rockpool boats because of the comfort, I can actually buy P&H at a cheaper trade price - but comfort wins out. Given your paddling locations Rockpool would also suit you sir for any after sales / repairs.

[dereckerick]

Another vote for Petes offer.

I had preconceived ideas before I had the chance to try them out. The benefit wih using Pete is that you can narrow it down then further try them until you are happy.

Pete will also give you good unbiased advise, not to mention the great location and second to none customer service.

Its an investment, make sure you are 100% happy.

[active4seasons]

I don't want to say it but Try them first and yes I guess Pete can be trusted.
You have chosen three completely different boats there though as has been said. From what you have said you would like to do I would recommend the Explore S but the Alaw Bach may fit you better so try them both. Not sure the Cetus is what you need as it is more of an expedition boat as mentioned.

Good luck,

Ollie

[PhilAyr]

I have paddled (well, demo'd) a Rockpool Alaw Bach and Tiderace Xplore S, but can't comment on the Cetus - supposed to be quite a voluminous expedition boat(?).

and...

Not sure the Cetus is what you need as it is more of an expedition boat as mentioned.

Not in my experience. The Cetus MV doesn't quite have the same volume as the Cetus HV but I have found it to be a fantastic day boat. Very fast, turns and edges very well and has enough volume for expeditions. It is also less tippy than my Quest and alot more comfortable. I honestly can't fault it, and no I don't work for P&H ! :-)

Phil

[Douglas Wilcox]

Phil enjoying the Cetus MV. This kayak has a particularly broad range of use for people of average weight and is definitely worth a trial.

Douglas

[PhilAyr]

Brochure quality photos Douglas. I like the lines of the Cetus M.V. Pity about the male model though ! ;-)

Phil

[UlrikSchou]

A big second for the Cetus mv, Fit me great at about 90 kg and 188cm.. it'll turn on a dime for me with a little edge, and it's very stable on edge, but try it out with the others, depending on your weight, maybe try cetus LV... I took several trips to decide between Tiderace explore classic and the cetus MV..

Ulrik

[No Kayak]

The Xplore and Cetus MV are not directly comparable- that would be the Xplore_S and the MV. The Xplore would compare to the original Cetus or the modified from original Cetus HV.

[Douglas Wilcox]

No Kayak

The Xplore and Cetus MV are not directly comparable- that would be the Xplore_S and the MV. The Xplore would compare to the original Cetus or the modified from original Cetus HV.

This is true of the Explore_S and Cetus MV but only if you are comparing kayak volume. However, recently sea kayak design has been moving forward and if you are comparing how kayaks handle , it is not as easy as a simple volume comparison. Currently I am paddling a Rockpool Alaw Bach, a Valley Nordkapp LV and the P&H Cetus MV. All three are really satisfying kayaks to paddle and I like them all. The Cetus MV is the highest volume by a considerable margin but surprisingly, at my weight of 85 kg, is is the most manouverable. It and the Nordkapp are noticeably faster on sprint speed. All three handle rough water superbly but when you stop paddling, eg when taking a photo, the Nordkapp LV is the least stable and the Cetus MV the most stable. For me the Nordkapp LV is the least comfortable and the Cetus MV is the most comfortable. People with thinner thighs may find the Alaw Bach more comfortable than I do. In terms of acceleration and catching a wave, the Alaw Bach and Cetus MV are not as fast to accelerate as the Nordkapp LV but the Cetus MV catches more waves than the other two. With a sail the Cetus MV is the easiest of the three to plane and punch through the wave in front. It is the only one of the three which will consistently overtake the waves downwind with a sail. On a recent 9km crossing with swell from the rear port quarter and force 4 wind and waves from the rear starboard quarter, the Cetus MV (without sail) was easier to hold on course, requiring fewer corrective strokes, than an Excite, which is similar to the Alaw Bach. Lastly, on a three day 2 night winter trip, choosing the Cetus MV was a no brainer. It took winter sleeping bag, logs, barbecue charcoal, a pressure cooker and 3l of home made soup with ease. My Alaw Bach and Norkapp LV would not have taken that load.

Of course at your weight and experience you may well find each performs differently to my experience, so ideally you should spend some time in each of your shortlist before deciding. This reminds me of comparisons of windsurf boards. Initially it was fairly easy to classify their range of use by length then, as shapes developed, volume was the best criteria. Then after further evolution it moved to width width. Due to my windsurfing having been stopped by my knee problems, I have no idea what the latest criteria to classify perfomance is! What I am trying to say is that don't just judge how suitable a kayak might be, for your use, by its volume. Have fun choosing!

Douglas

[No Kayak]

The Xplore is a much bigger boat than the Cetus MV, full stop. It also has a higher profile in the water, thanks to the raised cockpit and advanced rocker and volume at the ends of the boat. All the things that go together to punish someone too light being in the wrong boat.

My experience has always been that less skilled paddlers feel the Xplore_S, being that inch narrower than the Xplore, and probably a couple of inches less than the Cetus MV, is out of their comfort zone, so they lump with the boat they feel stands less chance of dipping their SLR into the oceon.

I would still stand by my point, that the Xplore is significantly bigger than the Cetus MV, with a hull shape that only serves to exaggerate that difference. Someone of the right weight and height to use a Cetus MV is going to find the Xplore too big a boat.

[UlrikSchou]

Nokayak, you're probably right, and I don't believe I stated otherwise, my comment was simply, that I tried out both, back to back several times, because I found them relatively similar in terms of physical fit/bodycontrol. Actually, it wasn't until I just now checked, that I realized how big the overall volume difference is..

However, I had a hard time folding my legs in the "s", so you can't always compare overall volume..

Searider, this just goes to show you the importance of trying out a lot of boats...maybe throw in the cetus LV in your trials...

Ulrik

[Douglas Wilcox]

Hello No Kayak,

I agree that too many people end up paddling a kayak that is too big for them. The only reason I never owned an Avocet is that my thighs are too thick to fit under the cockpit. I like the Nordkapp LV better than the Nordkapp especially loaded camping because it sits low in the water and is unaffected by wind. Despite paddling with an expensive SLR on deck I chose a small (notoriously unstable) kayak for my weight because it has low windage which is a characteristic I value. But sitting low in the water means it not as maneuverable as it could be. So it's also limiting to be in a kayak that is too small.


I like the way that kayaks like the Rockpool Alaw shorten their waterline length by disengaging the rear of their keel when edged, if you are not too heavy for the kayak.




This Cetus LV is being paddled by a heavy paddler and even with extreme edge, the keel is hardly disengaging meaning the heavy paddler in a small kayak does not find it as maneuverable as a small paddler.

A good test of a potential purchase is to try an edged turn and if you feel the stern slipping and hear a satisfying gurgling, you know you are not too heavy for that kayak. Ideally you want to shortlist the smallest kayak in a range that allows the stern to disengage on edging. For me that is the Cetus MV. Although this has considerably more volume than my Alaw Bach and Nordkapp LV, rather surprisingly it has less windage than either. The rear hatch is much bigger than that of the Nordkapp LV but the Nordkapp hatch is deeper (higher). The Cetus line carries its volume low but wide in the stern. Not only does the Cetus MV have less windage than the Nordkapp LV it is dramatically more stable when not paddling. As you can probably tell, the Cetus MV is the first kayak I have tried in the 7 years that I have had the Nordkapp LV, that I would consider changing it for.

I repeat that volume is not the only criteria that you should consider when choosing a kayak. My (much lighter than me) daughter finds that the Cetus MV is just as maneuverable as our smaller Alaw Bach but is less affected by wind. Volume distribution and hull shape also need to be considered. At the moment, I think the Cetus line is a kayak with a particularly broad range of use for a given paddler weight. I say this based on my experience of paddling the Alaw Bach since 2004, the Nordkapp LV since 2005 and the Cetus line (Cetus, Cetus LV, MV and HV) since 2009.

Douglas

[Aled]

My experience has always been that less skilled paddlers feel the Xplore_S, being that inch narrower than the Xplore, ... is out of their comfort zone, so they lump with the boat they feel stands less chance of dipping their SLR into the ocean.

No Kayak - Xplore_M might fit this purpose, same low heck height as an S, same width/stability as an Xplore, and takes a little less energy to pull along at cruising speed...

[Slowlearner]

I am currently considering which kayak to go for and tried the Cetus MV and Xplore M during the week.

I found the Cetus comfortable, having short legs I felt it had less depth and the thigh braces fitted well, however I struggled to get it on edge. It appeared to require quite a bit of effort to get it to go and then did not seem to have any desire to stop going, whereas I felt the Xplore edged very easily and had a natural position when edged.

Anyone care to comment on my findings? Have I assessed them fairly?

Additionally I have been advised many like the Xplore in calm conditions and find it uncomfortable in high winds?

SL.

[michelin]

Try the Tiderace XCAPE.I did and I loved it and then bought one.Really fast boat easy to roll and edge very stable and very comfy.The P+H boats are very comfy to sit in its like being in an armchair as I nearly bought a MV Cetus but went for the XCAPE in the end

[Slowlearner]

Thanks,interesting you opted for the Tiderace when you found the Cetus so comy. Was it the XCAPE handling that you preferred?

SL.

[michelin]

This is just my own personal opinion but I found the Tiderace a nicer boat to paddle .I thought it was faster very manouverable and the aggresive thigh braces felt like I was locked into the boat where as the Cetus ones felt as if my knee could slip off at any time.The foot pegs are better quality ones in the Tiderace aswell and I thought the boat was better made too.Like I said this is just my opinion.The dreaded skeg wasnt working properly on the Cetus either

[Slowlearner]

Thanks again, interestingly I was surprised how braced I felt in the Cetus. I had expected the Tiderace to feel better, however it ddn't. I put this down to the height of the boats and my leg length, or lack thereof. That said I did prefer how the Tidreace handled, would echo your findings and would favour the Tiderace.

I guess the only conclusive way to decide is to get them in to rougher weather.

SL.

[michelin]

The Xplore has a higher deck than the XCAPE that might be why you felt tighter in the Cetus.So if like me you have shorter legs then the XCAPE might fit you better.Try one it might suprise you.

[soundoftheseagull]

Choosing a kayak is nearly as hard as the correct paddle good luck

[Slowlearner]

Thanks Michelin.

Please don't start me on paddles, I haven't got that far!

SL.