VHF in rough water

[seylan]

We were chatting while paddling today about how if it gets rough you don't want to take your hands off the paddle for any reason, including to use a radio, in case you capsize and were discussing the best way to use it to minimise hands off paddle time.

Does anybody have any good ideas? We thought a hands free VHF for paddlers would be brilliant but maybe there are some clever tricks to get round the problem?

I'm thinking of a scenario like - wind and waves get up and communication in the group is getting difficult. You just want to say to the person at the front that they're paddling a bit too fast, or going the wrong way, or maybe somebody has capsized just behind them. You pick up your radio to call them and - splash - you're in and the situation just got a whole lot worse. How can you avoid that (other than the obvious like group sticking together better, rafting up, etc)?

[JB-NL]

We were chatting while paddling today about how if it gets rough you don't want to take your hands off the paddle for any reason, including to use a radio, in case you capsize and were discussing the best way to use it to minimise hands off paddle time.

Does anybody have any good ideas? We thought a hands free VHF for paddlers would be brilliant but maybe there are some clever tricks to get round the problem?

I'm thinking of a scenario like - wind and waves get up and communication in the group is getting difficult. You just want to say to the person at the front that they're paddling a bit too fast, or going the wrong way, or maybe somebody has capsized just behind them. You pick up your radio to call them and - splash - you're in and the situation just got a whole lot worse. How can you avoid that (other than the obvious like group sticking together better, rafting up, etc)?

Good group discipline is key of course. I would not favor to use the VHF just for the "chit-chat" but for the emergencies.
I go out for a paddle, not for a chat ;-)

What about:
http://www.standardhorizon.com/indexVS. ... Archived=1

VOZ Multi Link even had a helmet with BT, believe it is not in their portfolio anymore.

Just a matter of time before we look like this:

http://www.fantech.com.tw/HTML/NEW/HTM- ... %94%AE.htm

JB

[seylan]

Hee hee - thanks for that JB-NL
I was thinking of solutions more along the lines of keeping it in a top pocket so you can talk without taking it out, a clever way to hold the paddle so it doesn't get caught by wind or waves and tip you or whatever but the Standard Horizon option does look pretty clever. Of course you'd need to remember to put it on if you thought you might need it but if you were that organised you might not need to communicate by radio in the first place.

I think if you've got a close-knit group of friends that you paddle regularly with its fine but if you're in a club (I'm in two) there are always some people who get too far away, no matter what discussions and assurances there have been when you set out or just as you reach the tricky bit. And you could say don't paddle with a club but the clubs taught me how to paddle and I'm not going to abandon them now that I have some chums I can go out paddling with. The problem is usually that when the going gets tough people get there heads down and battle into it and often the strongest people end up at the front, but they may not be the most experienced.

[andyE]

You could use a speaker microphone, put your VHF in pocket as normal, clip the microphone to a shoulder strap, or a head set but this would mean transmitting on VOX. All dependent on make and model of your VHF.

[ruralweb]

I've many years spent in the air and water with comunication equipment and its very difficult especially when the wind and waves get up and that when you need the coms. The problem is external noise and the only real way to eliminate it is an ear piece and throat microphone with vox set so a shout opens the coms so it ignores normal conversation. The next problem is water especially sea water which will trash almost everything - connector and leads into waterproof pouches don't work so you need a specifically designed system and they don't come cheap.

Try an air horn signal

[journeyman]

If it's a case of getting attention of those in front of the group, as an option to the air horn, how about using your whistle?

[seylan]

Yes I suppose the whisle or similar is the best option - the one I've got attached to my BA at the moment wouldn't do the trick but I'm sure I could get a better one and position it so I didn't have to take my hands off the paddle to use it.

What though if its not paddling friends you need to contact but the coastguard. You're still in the boat and again capsizing would make it a whole lot worse.

(sorry for the typo in my previous post by the way - don't know how to correct it now)

[ruralweb]

If its the coastguard you need to contact I would raft up or get off the water.

[ruralweb]

As for the whistle - tape one to the middle of your paddle so you can put it in your mouth without taking your hands off. Remember that a whistle is also a distress signal - certainly if you started blowing one in the Lake District you would have the mountain rescue team out as there is always someone else who hears it.

[MikeB]

Some of the folk I paddle with carry their VHF on the shoulder strap and can use it merely by pressing the tx button. Still got to stop paddling though can of course receive / hear more easily. I carried a combined torch / strobe in a similar position for some years though and found it wore the material of my cag quite badly as it as fairly heavy.

There is a remote mic available for the Icoms. Same principle, but less weight on the s/strap.

Other than that, I'd go with the "group needs to be more cohesive" approach - and of course also improving ones own static balance! THat said, I still prefer to raft up if I have to use the VHF when it's a wee bit bumpy.

[JohnML]

Used one in very rough water the other week and had to cut off talking sharpish a couple of times to put both hands on the paddle and focus on staying upright, at these points I was holding the radio in the easiest place to access quickly, my mouth, the antenna has teeth marks in it now...

In the past I would have tied it on quite high up the shoulder strap which I could use while at least half keeping a hand on the paddle up against my chest but having been smacked in the face/poked in the eye a few times in rough water or rolling I don't much like doing that any more.

It's all very well saying go to land or raft up, but sometimes situations require immediate comms and a good solution would be nice, the remote mic sounds a nice one and less to get clobbered with.

[Jim]

The trouble with Vox activated stuff in the conditions you are talking about is that there will be significant background wind noise - although ruralweb has explained in principle how to get round it I understand that in practise it is pretty difficult to get right, hence motorcycle intercoms are still PTT.

I do have and have used a remote (wired) speaker mic on my Icom set, it is handy in that it is clipped near my mouth so I only have to reach up and PTT when I need to talk, but what is your radio normally doing? Do you only maintain watch on your working channel or are you dual or tri watching 16 and local info channels at the same time? If so you need to grab the radio first and make sure it is on the correct channel - that and the fact that it seemed to have stopped working mean that I don't use it much any more.

Something we realised today, is that we need to nominate a working channel before setting off for it to be of any use, otherwise you end up with a situation where 'Kayak Sula' calls 'Kayak Phil' to advise him we are heading up the River Stinchar, 'Kayak Leven' is watching 'Kayak Phil' and taking photos of him crossing the bar into the river and can see that 'Kayak Phil' hasn't heard, but doesn't know which of the channels he is watching the call came through on to return the call advising that 'Kayak Phil' had worked it out and we would be with them in 30 seconds - since we were only 30 seconds from rounding the bend in the river it was clearly quicker and easier just to paddle into sight!

I would have to say, even if you normally don't use the radio for inter-group comms, agree a working channel before setting off because you never know what situation might develop, especially if you go rockhopping up narrow gullies, and round bends leading to more gullies, with more bends, and hopefully an exit somewhere because it's starting to become a long complex route to back out of.....

Back to topic, I'm not sure there is an easy answer other than don't let the group split up in rough conditions...

[ruralweb]

Have you considered using mobile phones with a Bluetooth earpiece. Jabra make one that minimises noise by taking vibrations from the bones in your ear it's also voice activated so you can tell it to phone Jim or bill etc - would be alot cheaper perhaps

[Dave28]

I've got a SH 760E with blue tooth and Voice Operated Transmission. Both the radio and blue tooth are fully waterproof; and the radio floats, but the blue tooth doesn't.

The boom mike works fine with very little extraneous noise (something to do with the mike cover I suppose) but the behind the ear fitting is not solid enough, and can be dislodged punching out through surf or during a roll; and replacing it with gloves on is virtually impossible.

It needs a head harness to hold it in place, but I haven't found one yet.

There's also the problem that if you want to talk in the group you have to turn the radio off to avoid transmitting your half of the conversation, at least in winter, because the bluetooth on/off switch can't be operated in gloves.

There's no doubt that if you're paddling solo, or just two or three, in demanding conditions it is good to be able to call with both hands on the paddle.

[SeaKayakingAnglesey]

Slightly off topic but when transmitting on a VHF in windy conditions the wind blowing over the microphone can make it very hard to hear the transmission. If the VHF is in a waterproof bag it keeps the wind off the microphone making the transmission clearer. A good argument for keeping even waterproof VHF's in water proof bags.

[seylan]

Thank you all for the suggestions.

I think for me in the meantime the most practical thing will be investing in a better whistle - the VHF is relatively new and I don't want to spend more money on another one - and positioning it either in the middle of the paddle or near the top of the BA so I can blow it without taking my hands off the paddle.

Sea Kayaking Anglesey - does the waterproof bag reduce the volume much? Presumably you're talking about a clear aquapack so you can see the dials and what chanel you're on. Or alternatively if you have a waterproof one anyway would a clear poly bag not do the trick just as well, or even some clingfilm over the microphone?

[MikeB]

A word of caution. There are well documented problems with using even a waterproof VHF in an aquapac. There are links in the almanacs VHF page.

[Mark R]

It's simple. Paddle within earshot and clear view of your mates, and if you stray beyond this area, make it your first priority to quickly return, always and every time.

If they can't or won't paddle with you or take notice of you, take a very long hard look at what you are all doing, and decide whether you have understood this sport properly.

[tg]

I think this runs with MarkR's comment; whistle protocol. We use it and it works. As soon as someone gets a little astray; two toots to regroup (say), three for assistance or whatever. Quick, simple, waterproof, learnt in seconds, cost pennies, hands (and battery!) free, light, floats and, crikey, you even get one for nothing if you buy an LJ, there is a reason for that, I'm sure ..
I was introduced to the idea a couple of years ago..
If it's not in the BCU curriculum it should be.

Tim

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

It's simple. Paddle within earshot and clear view of your mates, and if you stray beyond this area, make it your first priority to quickly return, always and every time.

If they can't or won't paddle with you or take notice of you, take a very long hard look at what you are all doing, and decide whether you have understood this sport properly.

QFT! It's a matter of very basic situational awareness. The whole time you're out there (that's every millisecond of the trip) you should know where everyone is in relation to you. In the event that you're out in front and you find yourself momentarily unsure, turn round and have a bloody look.

Failure to do this is, in my experience, one of the hallmarks of the FNG

[MikeB]

Very true. I know several people who just wont do this - I really dont like paddling with them.

[Jim]

It's simple. Paddle within earshot and clear view of your mates

On a calm day, this allows you to spread out a fair bit, on a rough day you will need to keep very close together - is that genius or what? A simple rule that covers all situations without need for modifications or if's and but's - provided you are within audio and visual range, you are doing it right.

[snapper]

You lot seem to be intensely paranoid about just about everything; it's almost like you lay awake at night worrying about what nut and bolt you haven't screwed down to the maximum. I really do wonder if you ever manage to enjoy yourseleves when you actually get out (assuming you do). If you can't keep your balance while you use a radio then really you need to be questioning whether you should be on the sea at all and might be better spending your time upgrading your skill set.

[Mike Mayberry]

My briefing always includes "We should be close enough to be able to talk to each other". As Jim says this means the group can be more spread out in calmer conditions and will be closer on rougher days. If you add that "If you have to shout to be heard then you are too far apart" then it's also the safety valve in the system, ensuring that you hopefully you don't require whistles, radios etc., to communicate within a group. "If you're the guy at the front you need to keep looking back to make sure you're not leaving people behind, if you're the guy at the back, maybe you're able to pick it up a little? Easier, if possible, to paddle alongside each other." The people I paddle with regularly this is all a given, doesn't even need to be mentioned these days.

whistle protocol. We use it and it works. As soon as someone gets a little astray; two toots to regroup (say), three for assistance or whatever

The trouble with this is, "how many blasts did I hear... did two mean.... or three mean... I forget now." A hard blast on the whistle should get peoples attention and then you can communicate with them. That is the only signal a whistle is useful for. A paddle pointing in a specific direction is an easy to get a message across. From my sailing days, repeatedly raising your arm to your head (a paddle raised vertically to be visable over waves?) can mean come to me, raft up.

Keep it simple.

Very true. I know several people who just wont do this - I really dont like paddling with them.

Ditto.

[Mike Mayberry]

You lot seem to be intensely paranoid about just about everything; it's almost like you lay awake at night worrying about what nut and bolt you haven't screwed down to the maximum. I really do wonder if you ever manage to enjoy yourseleves when you actually get out (assuming you do). If you can't keep your balance while you use a radio then really you need to be questioning whether you should be on the sea at all and might be better spending your time upgrading your skill set.

If individual posts had a "like" button... :)

[Douglas Wilcox]

Snapper>

You lot seem to be intensely paranoid about just about everything; it's almost like you lay awake at night worrying about what nut and bolt you haven't screwed down to the maximum. I really do wonder if you ever manage to enjoy yourseleves when you actually get out (assuming you do).

Drysuit CHECK
BA CHECK
Watch CHECK
Rescue knife CHECK
VHF CHECK
EPIRB CHECK
Whistle CHECK
Bottle opener....
Bottle opener....WTF!

Douglas

[andyE]

Snapper>

You lot seem to be intensely paranoid about just about everything; it's almost like you lay awake at night worrying about what nut and bolt you haven't screwed down to the maximum. I really do wonder if you ever manage to enjoy yourseleves when you actually get out (assuming you do).

Drysuit CHECK
BA CHECK
Watch CHECK
Rescue knife CHECK
VHF CHECK
EPIRB CHECK
Whistle CHECK
Bottle opener....
Bottle opener....WTF!

Douglas

Two bottle openers Douglas, I take it it's, cap and cork?

[Mark R]

With just one photo, Douglas carelessly sweeps away years of carefully accumulated kudos.



Budweiser, Douglas? BUDWEISER?

[MikeB]

Tut. On reflecting, between my various bits of kit ranging from multi-tools and assorted knives thro to one of those folding "army / survival" thingies, I must have at least 6 to 7 bottle openers. Mind you, I learned the lesson of the magic pull-tab and scew top years ago.

With many thanks to "snapper", I must remember to pack my torque wrench for tomorows weekender. Can't be too prepared. You never know when it may be necessary to apply some torque to someone's nuts. Life. Get. A.

Mike.

[MikeB]

I do, however, note with interest that DW has clearly successfully opened a number of bottles using a degree of improvisation.