Tawe Hassle.

[chrism]

Just to clarify by Hassle I mean being constantly approached and bothered by people from angling club!

Define "bothered" then. I expect everybody would be quite happy to be approached by members of the angling club for a nice chat about river conservation.

[morsey]

Oh no! this forum doesn't have edit facility, I've really shot my mouth off and made a tit of myself. Wish I could delete it!

Hahaha error!! :-) Tawe boy, your threats are so lame they are comical. Bothered! Do I look bothered!?! Hahaha!! You crease me up. :-)

[chriscw]

Just to clarify by Hassle I mean being constantly approached and bothered by people from angling club! I have expressed my views on vandalism earlier in this thread.

Thank you for clarifying that. I dare say we can put up with that, especially if the conversation is polite and friendly. Many of us feel that torturing fish for fun is a pretty sick past time, we are normally too polite to say so. All of us fail to understand how people who haul fish gasping and writhing in pain from the water can have the sheer cheek to accuse paddlers of disturbing the fish, we may be a bit less reluctant to say that if accused of disturbing fish. I trust that anglers would not be upset by this, if we in turn keep it friendly. As for whose river it is I think we have established that navigation rights and ownership of the river bed or fishing rights are in no way related so there really is no problem.

Perhaps between us (anglers and paddlers) we can keep an eye out for thugs who vandalise cars, insult pregnant women in car parks and vandalise fish breeding ponds. Mostly though these thug will be cowardly people who try not to be seen.

[morsey]

Chris you are just being polite for the sake of it!

I disagree that paddlers will put up with being bothered and approached, that is harassment.

Chris the area we are talking about is so small that everyone knows each other, it will be obvious to some within Tawe angling circles who the offenders are. Tawe Boy was given the clear directive to address the issue, what has he done, nothing, well apart from turn around and make threats!

Tawe Boy does not deserve our politeness.

[NogoodBoyo]

As for whose river it is I think we have established that navigation rights and ownership of the river bed or fishing rights are in no way related

I don't accept that you've established that.

Nogood Boyo

[wezzzy]

Chris you are just being polite for the sake of it!

I disagree that paddlers will put up with being bothered and approached, that is harassment.

Chris the area we are talking about is so small that everyone knows each other, it will be obvious to some within Tawe angling circles who the offenders are. Tawe Boy was given the clear directive to address the issue, what has he done, nothing, well apart from turn around and make threats!

Tawe Boy does not deserve our politeness.

I for one will be polite with anyone who cares to be polite to me, if I don't think they are being polite I will politely tell them to F.R.O.

[chriscw]

As for whose river it is I think we have established that navigation rights and ownership of the river bed or fishing rights are in no way related

I don't accept that you've established that.

Nogood Boyo

Well I think in the lack of any evidence indication or legislation to the contrary, we can take it as read that the long standing public right of navigation on all rivers which can be navigated still stands, don't you?

[MikeB]

Just to clarify by Hassle I mean being constantly approached and bothered by people from angling club! I have expressed my views on vandalism earlier in this thread.

That you have confirmed that people from the angling franternity are "bothering" citizens who are going about their lawful business is clear proof that such activity is taking place. Thanks for providing the confirmation.

Just so you know (as you clearly don't), that is a criminal act and there is even a specific piece of legislation - "The Protection from Harassment Act (1997)". I suggest that you and fellow anglers may care to research it. The penalties are severe.

Mike.

[wezzzy]

What's the term for anglers damaging themselves or their arguments?
"Shot yourself in the foot" doesnt seem to cover it but neither does "caught yourself with a pointy hook covered in feathers"

[NogoodBoyo]

Well I think in the lack of any evidence indication or legislation to the contrary,

None so blind as those who will not see... Which is why I said I wasn't going to post again.

we can take it as read that the long standing public right of navigation on all rivers which can be navigated still stands, don't you?

No. I refer you to my previous posts to this thread. I don't think the Rev's papers change anything. Even if there were some merit in his theories, which isn't accepted, there's no way that white waters on spate rivers such as the Tawe were historically "navigated". And don't confuse messing about in boats with "navigation".

Nogood Boyo
(back to lurking)

[morsey]

Nogood, if you want to stop legal activity you have to prove it is not legal. That is the way law works in our countries, lawful unless proved unlawful. Your claim of no navigation has not been proved, it was just asserted by fisheries/land owners that they could control what happened on the water. We have reasonable grounds to rebuff that assertion and are happy enough that our legal standing will stand up in court, but we don't need to prove it, we are just asserting the fact. Plus you also have the extra burden of having to prove riparian rights before you can even take your claim to court. And, because of the change in application by the land registry it is not even a given that canoeists will be subject to any civil consideration under "trespass", because if you don't have riparian rights you cannot claim trespass on the water. Basically Nogood, the argument from the fisheries is the same as it was twenty years ago, except all the points of fact, that were previously relied upon, have been shown to either not apply or not exist.

The points of absolute clarity in law with regards this discussion is the abuse being directed at paddlers, no ifs no buts, current legal application says it is not acceptable.

The way forwards is for Tawe anglers to stop the harassment, exercise control of those who deem to cause damage and to concentrate on their angling. Canoeists will be on the river, probably not at the times when anglers are enjoying the best conditions but infrequently there might be days when we share the river.

Whilst the threats and abuse continue, anglers lose all argument.

[Ieuan Belshaw]

More harassment today...

A car rocked up and a camouflaged jacket guy starting saying we're not allowed to kayak.

Us: "We're getting on at public access."
Him: "You need permission for that."
Us: "We need permission to use public land?"
Him: "Yes"

...more mumbo jumbo...

Us "Is this your river?"
Him "Yes."
Us "Right..? ... We're getting on anyway."

What a muppet.

At the get out we had another local approach us.
"Its great to see people paddling on the river, its a shame you don't go past my house so I can look out of my window and watch. If you ever get too cold or need help, feel free to come and ask me for help" *Points at house*.

Made my day.

[tawe boy]

Just to clarify by Hassle I mean being constantly approached and bothered by people from angling club! I have expressed my views on vandalism earlier in this thread.

Thank you for clarifying that. I dare say we can put up with that, especially if the conversation is polite and friendly. Many of us feel that torturing fish for fun is a pretty sick past time, we are normally too polite to say so. All of us fail to understand how people who haul fish gasping and writhing in pain from the water can have the sheer cheek to accuse paddlers of disturbing the fish, we may be a bit less reluctant to say that if accused of disturbing fish. I trust that anglers would not be upset by this, if we in turn keep it friendly. As for whose river it is I think we have established that navigation rights and ownership of the river bed or fishing rights are in no way related so there really is no problem.

Perhaps between us (anglers and paddlers) we can keep an eye out for thugs who vandalise cars, insult pregnant women in car parks and vandalise fish breeding ponds. Mostly though these thug will be cowardly people who try not to be seen.

These are clearly the ramblings of an idiot. Angling is the most popular pastime in Britain- FACT and also generates millions for the economy-FACT. Anglers and angling clubs also spend a great deal of time and money preserving and improving rivers for people like your good self to Tresspass on! I have read another thread talking about paddlers getting hassle on the upper Taff, 15 years ago you would not have been able to paddle the Taff the pollution was so bad,the work and tireless campaigning of Merthyr angling club have turned this into a thriving ecosystem. What contribution have the paddling community made to this and other Welsh rivers??? Lets not even start on the diseases such as these killer shrimps which are destroying ecosystems that you risk spreading around on the bottom of your boats? How many of you bother to disinfect beforeyou come and Tresspass on rivers.

[wezzzy]

[iAt the get out we had another local approach us.
"Its great to see people paddling on the river, its a shame you don't go past my house so I can look out of my window and watch. If you ever get too cold or need help, feel free to come and ask me for help" *Points at house*.

Made my day.

We met him a few weeks ago, lovely bloke offered us a brew :)

[wezzzy]

Just to clarify by Hassle I mean being constantly approached and bothered by people from angling club! I have expressed my views on vandalism earlier in this thread.

Thank you for clarifying that. I dare say we can put up with that, especially if the conversation is polite and friendly. Many of us feel that torturing fish for fun is a pretty sick past time, we are normally too polite to say so. All of us fail to understand how people who haul fish gasping and writhing in pain from the water can have the sheer cheek to accuse paddlers of disturbing the fish, we may be a bit less reluctant to say that if accused of disturbing fish. I trust that anglers would not be upset by this, if we in turn keep it friendly. As for whose river it is I think we have established that navigation rights and ownership of the river bed or fishing rights are in no way related so there really is no problem.

Perhaps between us (anglers and paddlers) we can keep an eye out for thugs who vandalise cars, insult pregnant women in car parks and vandalise fish breeding ponds. Mostly though these thug will be cowardly people who try not to be seen.

These are clearly the ramblings of an idiot. Angling is the most popular pastime in Britain- FACT and also generates millions for the economy-FACT. Anglers and angling clubs also spend a great deal of time and money preserving and improving rivers for people like your good self to Tresspass on! I have read another thread talking about paddlers getting hassle on the upper Taff, 15 years ago you would not have been able to paddle the Taff the pollution was so bad,the work and tireless campaigning of Merthyr angling club have turned this into a thriving ecosystem. What contribution have the paddling community made to this and other Welsh rivers??? Lets not even start on the diseases such as these killer shrimps which are destroying ecosystems that you risk spreading around on the bottom of your boats? How many of you bother to disinfect beforeyou come and Tresspass on rivers.

No mention of pulling fish from their home by a hook in the face?

Yes maggot drowners have helped clean up some rivers but they do it so they can catch more fish, their hard earned money has gone into making it better for fish, therefore better for fishing.
You pay for things you get out of it.

I think we already know its not tresspass.

[kayakingcallum]

Taweboy wrote

What contribution have the paddling community made to this and other Welsh rivers

At least once a year we do a clean up of the tywi around Carmarthen , not only on the river banks we also try to remove as much scrap metal etc as possible from the river bed , I believe Llandysul have recently started something similar with the teifi ? we can't be the only two clubs in Wales doing this I'd imagine?

[MikeB]

More harassment today...

A car rocked up and a camouflaged jacket guy starting saying we're not allowed to kayak.

This really does sound like the sort of illegal activity specifically targetted by the legislation. It's easy enough to find references on the web, but this summary of legislation relevant to "Harassment" generally makes good reading. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/stal ... ment/#a02a

Some key areas of note:

"This legal guidance addresses behaviour which is repeated and unwanted by the victim and which causes the victim to have a negative reaction in terms of alarm or distress" - and - "Although harassment is not specifically defined it can include repeated attempts to impose unwanted communications and contacts upon a victim in a manner that could be expected to cause distress or fear in any reasonable person". This is clearly the case with many of the examples.

"Section 7 defines a course of conduct as being on at least two occasions. Harassment is not defined but includes conduct causing alarm or distress. It is confirmed as including speech". Video evidence would help here I expect, but of course a good description by a number of witnesses would suffice I suppose. In any event, it appears that there's a core of people engaged in this illegal activity, so id'ing them will be easy enough.

This next bit is especially interesting, given tb's written admission of what's happening. "Section 7(3)a provides that conduct by one person shall also be taken to be conduct by another if the other has aided, abetted, counselled or procured the conduct. It makes it clear that a campaign of collective harassment by two or more people can amount to a "course of conduct". It also confirms that one person can pursue a course of conduct by committing one act personally and arranging for another person to commit another act." I wouldnt think it would take too much for the CPS to successfully prove he's "aiding and abetting" and I'm really rather surprised he's still offering abuse and threats. Id'ing him is really simple and well within the ability of the Police IT Forensic teams.

I'd suggest reporting all these instances of illegal harassment to the Police. And asking them to consider taking action under the legislation.

Mike

[boom]

Just to clarify by Hassle I mean being constantly approached and bothered by people from angling club! I have expressed my views on vandalism earlier in this thread.

Thank you for clarifying that. I dare say we can put up with that, especially if the conversation is polite and friendly. Many of us feel that torturing fish for fun is a pretty sick past time, we are normally too polite to say so. All of us fail to understand how people who haul fish gasping and writhing in pain from the water can have the sheer cheek to accuse paddlers of disturbing the fish, we may be a bit less reluctant to say that if accused of disturbing fish. I trust that anglers would not be upset by this, if we in turn keep it friendly. As for whose river it is I think we have established that navigation rights and ownership of the river bed or fishing rights are in no way related so there really is no problem.

Perhaps between us (anglers and paddlers) we can keep an eye out for thugs who vandalise cars, insult pregnant women in car parks and vandalise fish breeding ponds. Mostly though these thug will be cowardly people who try not to be seen.

These are clearly the ramblings of an idiot. Angling is the most popular pastime in Britain- FACT and also generates millions for the economy-FACT. Anglers and angling clubs also spend a great deal of time and money preserving and improving rivers for people like your good self to Tresspass on! I have read another thread talking about paddlers getting hassle on the upper Taff, 15 years ago you would not have been able to paddle the Taff the pollution was so bad,the work and tireless campaigning of Merthyr angling club have turned this into a thriving ecosystem. What contribution have the paddling community made to this and other Welsh rivers??? Lets not even start on the diseases such as these killer shrimps which are destroying ecosystems that you risk spreading around on the bottom of your boats? How many of you bother to disinfect beforeyou come and Tresspass on rivers.

Hi Tawe boy,
What you really mean is that 15 years ago you wouldn't have been able to FISH the upper Taff! Its always been paddleable, yes, the water may have been dirty, but always paddleable.
Whilst I'm sure that the hard work of various angling clubs helped, I would hazard a guess that the huge reduction in heavy industry and coal mining in the South East Welsh valleys probably had much more to do with the rivers getting cleaner than a bunch of maggot drowners!

How many fisher folk regularly disinfect their waders, rods, reels, landing nets etc, etc?? And as you mention, due to the difference in numbers in participants in the two activities, there is likely to be a much higher movement in alien fauna from the vast numbers of fisherfolk, than the occasional paddler.

To fellow paddlers, I would strongly echo Mike B's comment about reporting any harrasment to the Police.
The Chief Inspector for Powys, Martin Tavener, is well versed in the issues regarding threats and harrasment of paddlers and vandalism of property. He is also aware of the letter from the legal dept of Dyfed-Powys Police to the Teifi Trout Assoc.
Chief Inspector Tavener was also going to make the Sgt at Ystradgynlais Police station aware of the situation.
So if you are getting grief phone the Police, Ystradgynlais Police station is 0845 3302000. Or if you are being threatened call 101/999 as you see fit.
What ever you do, don't stop paddling the Tawe, it is a fantastic and beautiful river, that just happens to be a magnet for some idiots.
Enjoy

[bombproofgoblin]

Perfectly put boom.

The police, through word, and action, have clearly demonstrated they know the score. They have no problem with us paddling the river, probably since they're looking at the situation from a balanced perspective. Also almost certainly why I've only ever had positive conversations with locals who don't pay subs to the Tawe Fishest posse. The point being that the desperate words and ramblings from the likes of tawe boy are irrelevant. All they can do is talk at us, to which, I have found refusal to acknowledge there existence very effective.

NB tawe boy - using completely unfounded and emotive words such as trespass only appears to highlight your seemingly desperate approach. You know, just as well as us paddlers, we are not, and never have committed the offence of trespass. It makes your argument appear ignorant...

[Kayak-Bloke]

Lets not even start on the diseases such as these killer shrimps which are destroying ecosystems that you risk spreading around on the bottom of your boats? How many of you bother to disinfect beforeyou come and Tresspass on rivers.

This made me smile.
Moral highground indeed. You'd never find the fishing community changing the balance or a river...unless:
They wanted to catch a fish that gave better 'sport' than the native ones...
Or... native birds were eating the newly introduced fish..
Or...Native mammals were eating the newly introduced fish..

In which case fishing folk openly and ruthlessly change the balance of river ecosystems, all the time, all over the UK. Other than that though I'm sure you are right, we're the bad guys... :-/

Fool.

[chriscw]

So Tawe Boy's justification for the fact that fish suffer when caught appears to be that angling generates revenue for the economy. Interesting I seem to recall similar arguments being used in favour of slavery, Gas Guzzling cars and many other things which are not no longer quite so fashionable. I, like I suspect the majority of people, strongly disapprove of catching fish for fun but I think perhaps it should continue to be tolerated. When however an angler complains that we disturb fish, sorry that is a bit rich mate!

Meanwhile most of us we will happily paddle and do or best not to disturb anglers and despite our disapproval of their pastime be pleased to see other people out enjoying our great outdoors.

I suppose if you type untrue things with the word fact in capitals before them you might convince yourself, it is not likely to impress other people though. Assuming all anglers have a rod licence and are therefore fishing legally then there are fewer of them that there are paddlers never mind other boaters, wild swimmers, dog walkers and so on. Anglers are a minority of river users.

[NogoodBoyo]

Assuming all anglers have a rod licence and are therefore fishing legally then there are fewer of them that there are paddlers never mind other boaters, wild swimmers, dog walkers and so on. Anglers are a minority of river users.

What figures are you using?

The numbers of licensed anglers in England and Wales (for 2009) are given in Table 3 on page 17 at http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/st ... t_2009.pdf.

Where can I find numbers for paddlers etc?

[Eliza Dolittle]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Disraeli

Various watersports participation surveys have put the number of people who go canoeing at over 2 million a year.(eg RYA 2001)
and
Canoeing is the fastest growing watersport.

You cannot make a direct comparison on particpation based on the number of fishing licences sold and the number of members of Canoe England. It is a legal requiremnet to have an EA rod licence to fish. It is not a legal requirement to be a member of Canoe England/ Canoe Wales etc to go canoeing and kayaking .
Based on my personal experience as a bailiff for a canal angling association approximately 1 in 3 of the anglers I spoke to did not have a local permit to fish that stretch of water, approximately 1 in 20 anglers did not have an Environment Agency Rod licence for coarse fishing.
About half of my adult paddling friends are members of Canoe England, but bear in mind that I am involved in a lot of competition and coaching where Canoe England membership is a requirement and I live in the South East where it is cheaper to join CE than buy separate waterways licences for the Thames and canals.

[Steve B]

I don't understand why we're getting dragged into a discussion about numbers. Way more people fish than paddle, that's obviously true. It's also completely irrelevant to any of the issues in this thread.

[MikeB]

Assuming all anglers have a rod licence and are therefore fishing legally then there are fewer of them that there are paddlers never mind other boaters, wild swimmers, dog walkers and so on. Anglers are a minority of river users.

What figures are you using?

The numbers of licensed anglers in England and Wales (for 2009) are given in Table 3 on page 17 at http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/st ... t_2009.pdf.

Where can I find numbers for paddlers etc?

While it may well be irrelevant, that said, the last time I saw any anglers on the river I happened to be paddling, there were only two. There were 5 people in the group of paddlers I was in. So, clearly the anglers were in a minority on the day / time in which the comparison was valid.

I usually find this to be the case. Seldom have I paddled a river and found there to be more anglers fishing it than there were paddlers and / or swimmers enjoying it. I reference the Tay at Stanley as one notable example.

Comparing the size of one user group of a resource over another has no value. It certainly doesn't give one precendence over the other and to even think or suggest it does would be childish and extremely naive. I draw the parallel between cars and cyclists on the public road. That one may outnumber the other doesn't matter a damn. Equally, that one is required to pay for a road fund licence doesnt give them special privilages, merely that they have purchased a licence (as required by law) in order to be able to use a motor vehicle on the public road.

"We pay - you don't" = meaningless.
"There's more of us than you" = meaningless and juvenile
"You're trespassing" = we're not, so meaningless.

This is just going round in circles, rather like the last similar discussion on the subject did.

Mike

[Ieuan Belshaw]

I have seen plenty of fishermen near the Tawe, but I am yet to see one fish on the Tawe.

[NogoodBoyo]

I don't understand why we're getting dragged into a discussion about numbers. Way more people fish than paddle, that's obviously true. It's also completely irrelevant to any of the issues in this thread.

I quibbled because:

Assuming all anglers have a rod licence and are therefore fishing legally then there are fewer of them that there are paddlers never mind other boaters, wild swimmers, dog walkers and so on. Anglers are a minority of river users.

and there's already enough nonsense in this thread without statements like that.

[wezzzy]

I don't understand why we're getting dragged into a discussion about numbers. Way more people fish than paddle, that's obviously true. It's also completely irrelevant to any of the issues in this thread.

I quibbled because:

Assuming all anglers have a rod licence and are therefore fishing legally then there are fewer of them that there are paddlers never mind other boaters, wild swimmers, dog walkers and so on. Anglers are a minority of river users.

and there's already enough nonsense in this thread without statements like that.

True, plenty in nonsense from both sides.
It doesn't matter who has more participants or who thinks paddlers are trespassing, neither will stop us from paddling on the Tawe or any other river with public access points.

[vaughan21]

The fishermen are to busy bothering paddlers, you'd think they would concentrate on their sport a bit more rather than ours. Perhaps they just fancy a paddle?

[morsey]

The anglers are on closed season which is why you haven't seen them fish yet this year, they will out in a few days. Snow all across the hills so water is low, sure it will melt in a week or so and we will go canoeing whilst they wait for the levels to come back down. I can't be bothered arguing about whether or not angling is damaging to fish, I have no desire to stop anglers from fishing. I've seen actual anglers on the Tawe, in the pool below the big ledge drop with no name. They handled themselves in typical manner, by shouting, they didn't seem very bright.

Anyway that was mere tittle tattle.


Boom, nice work my friend, that was pleasurable reading.