Advert supplement to OP

[Mark R]

http://www.oceanpaddlermagazine.co.uk/7 ... 091211.pdf

[zec01]

Thanks for that, loking forward to getting my Romany S and seeing it in there has made me even more excited

[MattB]

It's certainly not a buyers guide. It's just a larger brookbank catalogue. There's no impartial reviews, in fact no reviews at all, just the manufacturers blurb borrowed from the relevant website.

OP- could we have a "buyers guide" please, oppose to a catalogue? Some independent comments would be useful. I know you do review kit in most issues.

[Mark R]

Here's the equivalent from Kayak Session/ Paddle World...

http://www.kayaksession.com/buyers-guide-2012.php

[johnb]

Some interesting boats in that kayak-session guide, though strange that other boats or even complete manufacturers were omitted.

[Mark R]

Some interesting boats in that kayak-session guide, though strange that other boats or even complete manufacturers were omitted.

Companies pay to be included.

[No Kayak]

To be honest, the facilities available for any budding sea kayaker to read impartial, consistent and independent reviews of any boat are generally terrible.

Magazines such as Ocean Paddler are so reliant on advertising from the major boat producers that they just cannot afford to print independent reviews. If you believed everything you read in there, you'd believe there was never a bad boat produced- which is patently not true. The reality is that the reviewer has on occasion been given a boat by the manufacturer in return for the review, and people don't generally slag off things they get for free.

Sadly, people new into the sport then have the fall back of blogs and forums, which are frankly full of people with vested interests and long standing political positions within the (small) industry, who are happy to keep that fact to themselves. I'll be fair and say this forum is not necessarily a good example of which I speak, though.

What would be nice, would be a European, properly independent reviewing publication that had the clout and confidence to provide consumers with decent, categorised and objective reviews- very much in line with the aims of those you'd see in one from, for example, Sea Kayaker. If that were to be established, then manufacturers would be less likely to get away with substandard design, poor manufacture or even downright plagiarist behaviour, as they seem to do at the moment. The ones initially losing out are the consumers, but worst of all, the industry as a whole, which could be so much better.

[RichardCree]

No Kayak, sorry you are wrong!

in the past I did some work for OP, so I know how it works. I don't think I have ever read a review that was 100% in favor of anything, (although I haven't seen the mag for a year) boat reviews were always very honest the problem with reviews is they are only one persons opinion, sea kayaker do it differently using 3 kayakers and bring the information together.

There probably has never been a bad kayak made, however bad you reckon it is I'll bet someone loves it! reviews are so opinionated with regards to tippieness how do you quantify this? speed is another one reviews often are along the line os the paddler managed to maintain 3kn over a period, is that because the paddler is super fit or fairly useless. the only factual non opinionated things you can include in your review are along the lines of how many hatches! does it come with a seat (seat being comfy is an opinion!)

I agree a resource somewhere could be an asset to anyone looking for a new boat!

[PeterG]

In the early days of windsurfing; the days when manufacturers weighed the boards coming off the line and under-weight boards were sold as 'race' at a premium. So what if they snapped, the 'racer' must have been pushing it too hard and anyway if he could afford one 'race' board, he could afford another. There were some designs that were simply bad, almost unsailable. The reviews in the glossy mags said so, and the designs disappeared without trace. Later on the annual comparisons of the new crop of boards never had really negative reviews. A combination of the advertisers becoming a more important revenue stream, but also that all designs were OK for someone's style of sailing, greater understanding of fluid dynamics and improved design had rooted out the real turkeys.

We have tried getting club members to review their boats to develop a resource for newcomers and are slowly building our collection.

http://www.portsmouth-canoe-club.org/resources/kayaks

Nearly everyone loves their boat, the problem is getting people to articulate why.

[Mark R]

Magazines such as Ocean Paddler are so reliant on advertising from the major boat producers that they just cannot afford to print independent reviews. If you believed everything you read in there, you'd believe there was never a bad boat produced- which is patently not true. The reality is that the reviewer has on occasion been given a boat by the manufacturer in return for the review, and people don't generally slag off things they get for free.

I had a look at OP the other day (just re-subscribed), and yes, it is difficult to find a negative review. But possibly you're missing the point of a review, which is to outline the key features of a product, including pros and cons. I agree with Richard that there is very rarely such a thing as a 'bad' boat, just different boats that have different pros and cons. To the best of my knowledge, most of OP's reviewing is done in the central Solent by Duncan Smith, who appears a thoroughly decent and honest fellow - http://www.solentseakayaking.co.uk. From my past experience of magazine work, when magazines occasionally come across a product that is fundamentally flawed (the names 'Dragorossi Mafia' and a certain Yak BA spring to mind) and no accommodation/ agreement can be made between the manufacturer and magazine, then the 'if you have nothing nice to say, then it's better to say nothing at all' maxim comes into play.

blogs and forums, which are frankly full of people with vested interests and long standing political positions within the (small) industry, who are happy to keep that fact to themselves.

Interesting statement. Go on, give one specific example of what you mean.

[No Kayak]

Two examples that spring to mind...

On the boat front, I recall at least one P&H review of recent times where the paddler was given the boat as a gift, then reviewed. This was corroborated by the person's own proud parents, of all people!

On the forums, I can think of many occasions. One that immediately springs to mind is the US based producer of a thermoformed version of a British design. He was prone to popping up on a popular US forum and berating other manufacturers and being uncommonly kind to a particular manufacturing process. Once pointed out to him where his vested interest lay, at least the rhetoric now comes with a disclaimer.

More to the point, bloggers and forum stalwarts are often given boats and inducements by manufacturers and therefore their views should often (though not always, of course) be taken with a pinch of salt.

Considering a decent composite boat is now expected to cost circa £2500, it's now about time buyers should be afforded totally independent reviews with the ability to both praise and criticise in equal measure- something that's sorely lacking in the European arena.

[Mark R]

On the boat front, I recall at least one P&H review of recent times where the paddler was given the boat as a gift, then reviewed. This was corroborated by the person's own proud parents, of all people!

Who? Evidence? I think it's very important to verify this specific example, because to the best of my knowledge (and I do have some knowledge in this area) PH do not give boats away. Nor for that matter do any of the manufacturers do this, where websites/ reviewers are concerned??????

More to the point, bloggers and forum stalwarts are often given boats and inducements by manufacturers and therefore their views should often (though not always, of course) be taken with a pinch of salt.

Again, I would suggest it's very rare that boats are 'given away' to web folk. Not sure what you mean about 'inducements', but certainly discounted gear is not uncommon.

To use myself as an example, I got a discount on my Cetus back in 2007, in return for advertising space on this site (not for reviewing). I also currently have a Delphin on loan from them whilst they are fixing my battered Cetus, and I've said that I'll post up some comments on it (when I get around to doing this it'll be on my blog, not here - I choose to review things as an individual, not on behalf of UKRGB). Does this all make me corrupt/ biased/ unreliable? Probably I'd be naive to argue otherwise, but I have certainly upset a few folk by saying what I think about products (it never fails to amaze me that folk who've sent something to you for reviewing get annoyed when you actually do give your opinion). All I can say on my own behalf is, if I'm using a bit of kit or recommending it, it's because I like it. If I didn't, I'd use something else.

Where others reviewing are concerned, how do you judge the veracity/ credibility of their words? I suppose what is helpful is honesty/ openness; to come back to OP magazine, I notice that they give some indication of the conditions a piece of gear has been used in, and for how long etc; you can never have enough of this sort of thing, in helping you to establish how to use the info provided.

[Jim]

Or to put it another way, name a complete dog of a boat designed in the last 10 years.

Sure if we go back to the 70's there were some designs that ought never have been moulded, but I can't think of anything recent that 'everybody' hates or 'everybody' finds too difficult to get on with. Sure there are some boats which suit some paddlers more than others - Valley Rapier for example shouldn't be a choice for a beginner getting into touring, but it is pretty good at what it is meant for despite reservations murmered by many of those into it's niche.

I admit it's hard to work out what is a truly outstanding boat these days, but by paddling with lots of people who have all tried lots of boats and settled on different ones, I am pretty sure that the personal ergonomics are by far the most important factor - unfortunately they are also the hardest part to review even for someone who is completely independant.

At the end of the day, reviews help us decide which boats to shortlist for demo before we buy. Except where you get chatting to the designer and end up trying and liking the boat and buying one without doing a full comparitive exercise...... do as I say not as I do :-)

[Mark R]

the personal ergonomics are by far the most important factor

Absolutely - and in this context, ergonomics doesn't just mean the seat/ fittings/ etc, it applies to the whole way in which the performance of the boat syncs (or doesn't sync) with the user's prejudices/ paddling style etc. Almost impossible to cover thoroughly in a review...as always, there is no substitute for trying before buying.

[wideblueyonder]

So as Mark pointed out, I review a lot of kit for Ocean Paddler. I am however, not the sole reviewer. I am one of a group of 5 or so people who have involved in reviewing kit. These are my own personal thoughts as I cannot speak for any of the other reviewers who write for Ocean Paddler or for the editor.

To date I have never been given any instructions on what to write by the editor of the magazine. All my reviews have been printed as written. I was given a copy of a particularly well written review by one other reviewer as a guide to the section headings/structure of the review as the editor was keen to have a consistent style/format to the reviews.

I write what I honestly feel about the kit and have yet to have to review a real clanger of an product, boat or otherwise but would have no qualms about writing a purely negative review if a product was deserving. To date, I’ve found there to be positive and negative aspects to most boats and other kit, and have always shared this in reviews. I enjoy reading other people’s reviews in OP and other publications so try to write the type of review I would find useful.

Reviewing is very subjective so my views are simply a guide and one paddlers experience. I would always advocate that prospective buyers spend as much time in a boat as they can before making a decision and talk to as many people who have used a boat to gather a range of feedback.

I am paid by Ocean Paddler to write the reviews and other articles I contribute. This covers petrol costs and time put into the reviews. I’ve worked out at the end of any given issue how much I have spent on petrol and number of hours put into reviews vs the amount I am paid as quite frankly I'm not bothered. My motivation for the reviews is not financial.

The flow of review equipment is a sporadic thing. At some points in time I may have a lot of kit around at others very little. Some manufacturers provide review kit for very short periods of time, some an extended period. This means I have a variable amount of review kit sitting around at any given point in time which I continue to use, often to write more long term reviews on my own website, until it is requested back. My personal experience is that the boats are requested back pretty quickly and it’s the smaller, lower cost items like a PFD or trolley that tend to stick around or not be requested back. Whilst I can’t speak for the other reviewers I would suspect it’s a similar situation for them.

The reality is that the reviewer has on occasion been given a boat by the manufacturer in return for the review...

...I recall at least one P&H review of recent times where the paddler was given the boat as a gift, then reviewed.

I simply don’t believe this is true. To follow Mark’s lead and openness regarding his boats, here's my situation - I personally own two sea kayaks. Both P&H. One is a P&H Iona - bought second hand in 2002 as an engagement present by my wife for I believe £280. The other is a P&H Cetus bought from the lovely folks at Bournemouth Canoes in 2009. I received a small discount from the shop (nothing to do with OP or P&H) in the form of them throwing in a couple of small accessories. I think I finish paying off the loan I took out to afford it in a couple of months! Currently I have 4 review boats. Two finished with and reviewed and two about to be reviewed.

I also own a complete set of standard paddling kit which I have purchased over the last few years at normal prices (or the usual 10% discounts often offered to BCU members). I could stop reviewing tomorrow, hand back any outstanding review kit and would not be missing anything I need to get out paddling on the Sea.

I recognise I am in a very enviable position of having access to lots of nice shiny kit to play with. In return I fit lots of hours of paddling in and around a busy work and family life and will then be writing up my reviews all hours of the night. To me, being able to use the kit for a few weeks or months is a perk but at the end of the day none of it is mine - it all goes back at some point and I look on just as enviously at other paddlers shiny kit as they actually own it!

What would be nice, would be a European, properly independent reviewing publication that had the clout and confidence to provide consumers with decent, categorised and objective reviews

Go for it, No Kayak, if you think there is another way to do it, set it up and get it going. I’d genuinely subscribe. I’d love to see more magazines and publications. Everyone does things differently and I think the diversity is great for the paddling community.

[Uisce]

Back to the topic...

What a nice supplement. Really enjoyed the Expedition Top Tips section (particularly the hammering deck bags get :))

Ruaidhrí

[Mark R]

http://content.yudu.com/A1urc6/buyersgu ... ces/26.htm

Adventure paddler mag's version.

[Mark R]

the personal ergonomics are by far the most important factor

Absolutely - and in this context, ergonomics doesn't just mean the seat/ fittings/ etc, it applies to the whole way in which the performance of the boat syncs (or doesn't sync) with the user's prejudices/ paddling style etc. Almost impossible to cover thoroughly in a review...as always, there is no substitute for trying before buying.

I was thinking about this. There is another factor which is hard to pin down - ever heard anyone ever say, "My kayak is sh*t?".

The reason you don't hear that very much is, after paddling a boat for a while, a paddlers' style subtly adjusts to suit that boats' handling characteristics. In other words, you learn how to get the best out of that boat.


However, to take my points to their illogical extreme ... no boats are bad, and no one needs to try before buying because they'll like it eventually anyway, and hence no reviews are necessary. Hmmmm.

[TechnoEngineer]

ever heard anyone ever say, "My kayak is sh*t?".

Yeah - I do (even though it's OK)!
http://www.portsmouth-canoe-club.org/re ... jon-kodiak

If I had the money, I'd paddle a Tiderace Xplore X......

[EK Sydney]

Here's what I've seen around the place in our part of the world:
Blogger starts up, hits on an original take on things and gets a following.
Blogger realizes they're onto something that could prove lucrative in some form and starts to sound out suppliers, manufacturers etc for kit to review favorably.
Reviews are hugely popular on paddling blogs and sites and this becomes very obvious to the blogger in the amount of hits, correspondence etc. They have some stats to then show prospective 'review' targets.
Reviews start to become universally fantastic, logos begin appearing on blog, blogger begins to believe in his/her own hype.
Nowhere, usually, is the commercial affiliation mentioned, nor the fact that the gear was given for nothing disclosed, for all the reader knows this is just a paddler who bought some kit and thought they'd share it. The blogs arent overtly commercial so thus all the more powerful for a marketer, where opinions look untainted.
Luckily, this sort of thing is very easy to see through and nobody for a minute thinks they're unsolicited. And keeping it perspective, there are a gazillion worse things on the web, this is just a bit of mischief that in the end probably results in the credibility of the blog being very much compromised.
Nothing illegal about it, caveat emptor after all, but it's definitely a developing pattern in paddlesports.
To clarify, this is something I'm noticing in my part of the world, so please don't take this as some sort of commentary about anywhere else, as I don't read much around the web other than the local stuff. Wideblueyonders post demonstrates the sort of ethics that should be the minimum in these matters, nice to hear.

[Mark R]

Here's what I've seen around the place in our part of the world:
Blogger starts up, hits on an original take on things and gets a following.
Blogger realizes they're onto something that could prove lucrative in some form and starts to sound out suppliers, manufacturers etc for kit to review favorably.
Reviews are hugely popular on paddling blogs and sites and this becomes very obvious to the blogger in the amount of hits, correspondence etc. They have some stats to then show prospective 'review' targets.
Reviews start to become universally fantastic, logos begin appearing on blog, blogger begins to believe in his/her own hype.

Interesting - could you give an example of one of these Aussie blogs?


Cheers,

[EK Sydney]

Sorry, nope! I know how they work, and have shared it here in the content of the thread, but I'll let others find 'em and make up their own minds. I should also add that my own blog is half commercial, half 'what I've been up to', but I hope I'm very clear that I'm trying to sell something, when I'm trying to sell something. We never accept products to test prior to selling them on a freebie basis either, it compromises the whole outcome, IMHO.
Like I said, it's not racist, fascist call to arms stuff that actuall hurts anyone, but it's out there and a bit of mischief, again in my opinion.

[Mark R]

So ... to summarise, more than one person has explained here that lots of blogs are riddled with corrupt and biased reviews and reviewers, to the extent of making it hard to get decent info on gear.

But they are both unable to name one actual example where this is actually the case. Rather undermines their argument.

[sleepybubble]

So ... to summarise, more than one person has explained here that lots of blogs are riddled with corrupt and biased reviews and reviewers, to the extent of making it hard to get decent info on gear.

But they are both unable to name one actual example where this is actually the case. Rather undermines their argument.

Perhaps its because those people don't want to make accusations of which they are not completely 100% of, or more likely drag a slanging match over onto these boards. Readers of the Antipodean kayaking forums would be fairly aware of how one highly known blogger down under is treated with what is barely above contempt by quite a few of the posters.

Mark

[Mark R]

I'm of the view that you can't have it both ways - make the accusation, yet be unwilling to back it up out of a suddenly acquired sense of discretion.

Seriously folks, if you think you know of a review skewed due to commercial influence, let's hear about it - I see no problem with outing such practice, if it indeed exists.

[EK Sydney]

Hey Mark, as above written so nicely by sleepy bubble. This isn't an investigative journalism forum, just a place to air your thoughts. If people think something that is posted is rubbish, then good, it's added to the colour, right? I don't think it should have to hold up in a court!
If we were sitting in the pub, or around a campfire, which was the original kayaking forum, then I'd let you know all the second hand, probably tainted evidence I know, but I wouldn't write it up here, because it's entirely unfair on the person I'd be accusing. The odd time it's happened to me on the web it's been pretty infuriating, so it's another one of those things I won't do. Suffice to say it happens, repetitively in the case of a few, caveat emptor.
To give you an idea of how influential a review can be, as the guy in Australia whom sells Nordkapp LV's, I don't think there is a single buyer down here who has bought one without reading Douglas' review. They all speak about how balanced, yet compelling it is, and it undoubtedly sells boats, but importantly it also has enough info to turn off someone not suited, which is another thing a good review should do. It's too concise and balanced to be biased, clearly Douglas ain't singing for his supper.
Anyway, Merry Xmas!
Mark.

[janet brown]

I read a lot of reviews and sales information before drawing up a shortlist of sea kayaks to try in 2008. I was lucky enough to try several at Woodmill in Southampton.
Our summer holiday then started at Brookbank Stockport for a demo day (unfortunately cancelled due to blue-green algae), moving on to Knoydart in Penrith, and was planned to head for Karitek if necessary.
My top choice of smaller sea kayak was at Brookbank, and just sitting it showed it was too large for me.However I hit the jackpot at Knoydart with a kayak I hadn't shortlisted as such, and ordered my Tiderace XPloreS after one trial on a lake. Perhaps I should have been more discerning in my demoing, but.... I love my boat, and do find it hard to articulate why!
All I know is that I seem to be able to keep up fairly well with club trips, and don't seem to fall out of the kayak unless I want to, although I haven't yet tried very testing conditions.

Janet

[Douglas Wilcox]

Mark (Sydney)

clearly Douglas ain't singing for his supper

Hi Mark fortunately I had a very well paid job and after I handed the loan Valley Nordkapp LV back I bought my own at full price, no discount. My pals (of differing abilities and sizes) also help by paddling the loan kayaks and giving feedback, Jim from this forum, helped with the Nordkapp LV test. I also bought two other(Rockpool and P&H) kayaks after testing them. As before I bought them at full price. Of course most of the kayaks I have had on loan, I don't buy afterwards! I also do anonymous reviews for Ocean Paddler but as I always say where the kayaks have been paddled, I guess most people put two and two together about the author. Rich Parkin the editor of Ocean Paddler has never altered any review I have written.

This year I was lucky enough to borrow one of the first Vally Etains on the water and I currently have two P&H kayaks on loan. In 2009 I highlighted some skeg, fitting problems and handling characteristics of the first generation P&H Cetus. You might think that this would mean I would not be able to borrow a P&H kayak again. Far from it, Graham Mackereth, the boss of Pyranha/P&H, phoned me up and offered a Cetus LV to test the same way! I really think that the industry is looking for honest feedback, the good and the bad. They don't need sycophantic grovelling from someone desperate for a free kayak. I am also impressed by the way that the industry responds to such feedback. Following various reviews, I have been contacted by the bosses of P&H, Valley, Rockpool and Point 65. All took the critical parts of reviews in a most positive way. I think it helps that I own kayaks from several manufacturers and so am not seen to be particularly partisan.

Merry Christmas
Douglas :o)

[Mark R]

This isn't an investigative journalism forum, just a place to air your thoughts.

What this site is (so I honestly believe, anyway) is the most open discussion forum about our sport in the UK (apart from the pub, obviously). For instance, check out the discussions about our governing bodies here ... I have a feeling that you won't be reading any of that in any of the magazines. It doesn't always win friends for doing so, but this forum regularly punctures hype/ BS/ mythology about our sport that goes unchallenged elsewhere.

[No Kayak]

I'm not going to name names or compromise people who were or are friends or business colleagues- it would betray confidences and even commercial agreements in place.

Those who fit the description of what I've described know who or what they are.

Suffice to say my conscience is clear and the replies to this thread, EK excepted, are no surprise.