Paddle Length?

[Selkie]

I am about to invest in a top end carbon paddle (Werner Ikelos) and naturally want to get the right paddle length. Because I have always paddle a range of kayaks including SOTs I have always used 220 length. At 5' 10 this would seem a little long for high angle paddle in a sea kayak. Recently, I have been concentrating on my stoke in different conditions to see how this may effect paddle length choice. On flat water 220 is too long, forcing me to lift my arms to maintain a high angle. Conversely, in bigger seas, I find the extra length a boon as I reach into a trough to grip the water. I think I have always switched between high and lower angle depending on how I feel and the conditions.

So, am I right in thinking that paddle length will always be a compromise? If so, are we sizing for flat water or bigger seas? Or, have I got this wrong altogether?

[Voodoo]

As an option for you I use Mitchell Blades and they allow me to change the shaft lenth so my paddles can go from 215 - 225, but you can have it set in any range you want eg. 210- 220

[MikeB]

Have you seen the paddle length calculator on the Werner site?

I'd have thought 220 too long for your height - but much depends on all the other factors like style, boat width (and free board) and one which is seldom taken into account. which is how long your back is.

To put this into context, I normally use a 220 Lendal - I'm 6'2" with a long back - I also have a Lendal with an adjustable length shaft and found myself happily paddling one day with it set at 115 without my being aware that it was so set. I liked the slightly shorter length - -

It really is one of those "try and try" again decisions - if at all possible, try and paddle with a variety of lengths and see how you get on. Mike.

[Selkie]

As an option for you I use Mitchell Blades and they allow me to change the shaft lenth so my paddles can go from 215 - 225, but you can have it set in any range you want eg. 210- 220

Thanks Voodoo

I have never seen the Mitchell blades so not sure how they compare to the Werner. I have an old paddle with the adjustable Varihand fitting shown on the Mitchell website. I found this bulky and heavy and it never seemed to tighten enough. I was very aware that I had a 2 piece paddle. I see they have a Vario S Lock which is probably better. I will try to have a look or better still test one.

[Selkie]

Have you seen the paddle length calculator on the Werner site?

I'd have thought 220 too long for your height - but much depends on all the other factors like style, boat width (and free board) and one which is seldom taken into account. which is how long your back is.

To put this into context, I normally use a 220 Lendal - I'm 6'2" with a long back - I also have a Lendal with an adjustable length shaft and found myself happily paddling one day with it set at 115 without my being aware that it was so set. I liked the slightly shorter length - -

It really is one of those "try and try" again decisions - if at all possible, try and paddle with a variety of lengths and see how you get on. Mike.

Thanks Mike.

I agree, back length is seldom taken into account and this does make a big difference. I am more like a spider with long arms and legs for my body :))

I think what confused me was that I tested a Cetus and Etain recently. I asked if I could also try Werner Ikelos 215 at the same time. I loved the paddle and it did seem shorter than my Lendal Kinetic 220. They then said the test blade was actually 225 ??? ...Maybe its all in the mind...

[Voodoo]

In fairness the Mitchell option of joining the paddle isnt as gouchy as the werner option,
However I have two set of his blades for sea paddling in two different locking types and I was a bit put off by it at first but to be honest having used both types now I dont have any issues with them
Set one, had the alen key lock so once its set its set for the day, ( you can ajust but its a bit more of a faff on the water using an allen Key)
Set two, where cranks and have the new lever system on them and its very nice indeed it now allows me to adjust on the water again not as gouchy as the werner however once its set you just forget about it and paddle,

[JohnA]

I usually paddle with either my Werner Cyprus or my Epic Mid Wing. When shopping for the wing I tried a Mitchell Blades Bomborah, which is made for one of our local suppliers here (Expedition Kayaks) and is very nice. I had it for a couple of weeks and it was slightly heavier than my Cyprus but it was really solid. The blade shape is a bit whitewater slalom based, and it was really good for manoeuvring as you would expect but still had a nice catch and easy release. The blade area was a bit larger than the cyprus and the catch a bit stronger. The quality was top notch and the adjustable shaft had not a hint of movement in it. I would happily recommend his paddles to anyone based on the quality of the one I tried out.

[Selkie]

Thanks for the info in the Mitchell paddles guys. I will have a look at them. I have always used and liked Lendal paddles in the past, but they don't seem to be happening any time soon. This is why I have been looking at Werner as an option, but good to hear there are still British blades available.

[swagstaff]

There is also Powerplaypaddles made in Scotland, very good.

[SeaKayakingSouthWest]

All very personal again - but in my expereince 210 is a good length for a high angle style - possibly even shorter for some paddlers/boats. It also depends on the blade size/shape. The Ikelos you mention has a large blade size and that combined with the long paddle length could put a huge amount of strain on the tendons of your wrists, elbows and shoulders leading to early tiring or even tendon irritation (unless you are built like a rugby player). Most people can last longer with a long paddle if they have a smaller blade size (such as the Cyprus). Despite 'surviving longer' though you need to considor paddling technique and many people find a longer paddle makes then lift too high at each stroke to avoid tripping over the bottom. You mention the longer paddle helping you reach into the trough in waves but I've also had some people comment at the increased risk of tripping on the crests and wanting a shorter paddle in these conditions.
I've ended up with a cranked Werner Cyprus 210 and love it (as does my collegue, my brother, and everyone else who I have recommended one to
Happy paddling :-)

[MattB]

Forget the paddle length to start with and spend some of your cash on a couple of hours of good quality forward paddling coaching. Preferably on a one to one level. Theres more to forward paddling than meets the eye. From the session you should know what will work for you.



Matt

[Matt P]

I'm 6'1" / 186 cm tall and I paddle a boat that is 21 inches wide

My first paddles were Epic Relaxed Tourings with a 210-220 cm adjustable (straight) shaft; they are nice paddles, but they are for mid-to-low angle paddlers instead of mid-to-high angle paddlers really

I managed to get some used Werner Corryvreckens (same size as Ikelos) with a 210 cm cranked shaft (translucent white blades too!) a couple of years ago, but they were either too short and / or too big and I didn't get on with them (I was also not that well / paddling a lot less back then too)

I sold them, but I am tempted to try and get them back for a bit just to see if a 210 cm paddle really is too short for me (I'm in better health / paddling regularly at the moment)

I convinced myself that I had to get new paddles recently because the Epics are getting a bit tatty, and I was worried that the shaft diameter was too small

I was going to get some 215 cm Corryvreckens, but had second thoughts when someone (who has both sizes of Werner mid-to-high angle paddles)told me that larger blades were harder on your joints over long distances (or just generally)

So I decided that some 215 cm (cranked) Shunas (same size as Cyprus) would be the most sensible choice; they might not be perfect for me, but I think they are less likely to be too short or too long or too big than anything else

[Selkie]

Thanks for continued comments and advise guys. Still trying to decide. I guess that until you paddle a good distance in varied conditions it will always be hard know what length/blade is best for my use.

I have used a Lendal Nordkapp to paddle around the Cornish coast in the past and have a strong upper body (yes, built like a rugby player) so not had problems with large blades on 30 mile plus days in the past. Having said that, I am no spring chicken any more, so should be looking for efficiency over strength. So thanks for advice on Cyprus over Ikleos. I did like the Ikelos very much on a short test, but you could be right for distance paddling.

As it is hard for me try different paddles over a length of time, I thought I would experiment with length buy cutting an old paddle in half and adding an insert so that I can vary the length to see what works best for me.

I think it is time I joined a club after all these years as none of my mates/family paddle unless I supply them with a boat and kit on odd occasions. most of my paddling has been solo. Nothing wrong with that, as I enjoy the freedom and escapism, but it would be good to paddle more with experienced paddlers to learn and the camaraderie.

Good advise on the private tuition. Always happy to learn. I did start taking private lessons with Mark Stocker (record for English Channel Poole to Cherbourg) last year. He said that my forward stoke was good. Sadly he has given up his kayak business to do something else. Who would you recommend for top tuition in the Dorset/Hampshire border area.

[immunogirl]

I'm a wing paddler, so I use epic wings that are adjustable from 205 to 215 cms in length (you can also get them 210-220). I make sure that the spare paddle I carry with me is not the same size paddle as my usual one. I have a small mid wing and a medium mid wing, so I can switch if I get tired, want to sprint, whatever. If I'm tight in mangrove tunnels or something, I can collapse down to 205 cms, which helps a bit. Depending on where I'm going or what I'm expecting, sometimes the spare paddle is a long angle plastic one that I can beat up, or sometimes a lendal kinetic.

If you get a werner, I'd say go for the 210, you can just change your stroke to compensate if you need longer when you are in conditions. You know 220 is too long unless you're going low angle... Long term, I'd say you probably want to ideally have 2 good paddles that are different from each other in stroke type, that you have a chance to change when you're out on the water. Sometimes if you're tired on a long paddle, switching paddle types and stroke is enough to give you a break

[wideblueyonder]

For tuition on the Hampshire Dorset border try Rich or Sam at Liquid Logistics, based in Beaulieu.

[totalanimal]

You can't have one paddle to do it all. You are pretty average size so a 115 is the length for you. You will adapt and won't notice 5cm here or there especially with some chop in the water. A 700cm2 blade eg Corryvrecken/Lendle700 is great for surf or rockgardens etc and up to 5 hrs padling if reasonably fit. In very windy conditions or a very long day you'll need 600cm2 poss 650cm2 blades for ease on the body. [or get a greenland paddle!]Forget the carbon blades too stiff for recreational paddling and hard on your body. Get fibreglass blades and carbon shaft. It's not rocket science everyone.

[MikeB]

Oh - so that's what I'm doing wrong all these years!

[tg]

Wot's 115 mean.

Surely 215.

I must be old I use a 220,...

Tim

[MikeB]

And I followed fashion, and believed in carbon. Oh, the shame - body wrecked.

[Selkie]

Well, I think I solved my paddle length question....

I cut an old paddle in half and inserted a wood dowel marked for lengths down to 210 and went for a good paddle yesterday experimenting with length. I finally settled on 210 and was amazed at how this improved my stroke efficiency and made me turn my torso more to catch further forward. To think I have been using 220 for so many years :0

So, two things I need to do. Buy a top end carbon 210...because I am worth it after all these years :)

and maybe shorten one of my existing paddles as a decent spare. I have found some old threads on cutting and shortening paddles on here that are very useful. One question, where is the best place to get Lendal spigots and the lock systems these days?

[totalanimal]

Doing wrong all these years... You said yourself you didn't notice 5cm difference when paddling happily with 215....

[tg]

Selkie,

I think NDK/SKUK thingy wotsit has the deal now. Not sure if they are the retailers tho.

I shortened my carbon Lendal loom by hacking off a bit at each end and redrilling the spigot hole. Not a bad job. I have a mind to glue the KWings in now for better strength. I am resisting the glueing bit in case I need to lengthen them again :-)

They cut a dash at 219.

I used them at the Harwich RNLI demo day, (I didn't want to scare the crew too much by using my twigs (gp.s). They were anxious looking enough, checking out my 'skinny lil' boat'). I have to say it was rather refreshing hacking out across the harbour with more power than I accustomed, but I'll be back on the gp.s again at a sober 220, or a minimal 218. Choices, choices ...

Tim

Edit; Okay. Stand up straight raise the arm and fold fingers over the end of the blade. Second knuckle is the paddle length. Not everyone will agree with this, perhaps the majority. It is rather an old fashioned way to do it, but then, I am told by others, I am ...

I think totalanimal's comments re; blade area and use should be considered. So should use, and your personal comfort. I can paddle all day and more with a 3inch gp.

[Thompo]

Found this online this morning
http://dckc.co.uk/Documents/OP12_Forwar ... Dennis.pdf

Seems to be good info, im looking to split one of my paddles and add a variable joint if possible to see what I like or should be paddling (only been paddling sine may).

My paddles are currently 220cm, Im 5'10 16st and think my stroke is quite slow so a shorther paddle might improve things.

Ive been intouch with Lendal directly and they will sell the padlock fitting to make some good splits. Unfortunately the switchlock fitting (that allows adjustable feather) requires a compatible shaft with internal fittings made in.

[Selkie]

Stand up straight raise the arm and fold fingers over the end of the blade. Second knuckle is the paddle length. Not everyone will agree with this, perhaps the majority. It is rather an old fashioned way to do it, but then, I am told by others, I am ...

Thanks Tim

This test is how I ended up with a long paddle in the first place. As MikeB said earlier, there are other factors that come into play. I am a bit of a human spider with relatively long limbs for my 5' 10" body. With the stand up fingers over paddle test, my cut down 210 that I now find right for me only comes just past my wrist. Based on this test I should have a 218. but if I have a shorter back (longer legs and arms) I will sit (all things equal) lower in the water than someone who is 5'10 but with a longer back and shorter arms. I now think such dry tests are only good for getting started. Perhaps all beginners should start with a variable length paddle for some time experimenting until they find what works best for them. A variable length paddle is especially useful if you paddle different boats.

[MikeB]

Doing wrong all these years... You said yourself you didn't notice 5cm difference when paddling happily with 215....

However, the 215 gives too narrow a distance between the cranks. What I actually said was that I quite liked the length - which is not the same as your quote. Mike.

[Selkie]

Found this online this morning
http://dckc.co.uk/Documents/OP12_Forwar ... Dennis.pdf

Seems to be good info, im looking to split one of my paddles and add a variable joint if possible to see what I like or should be paddling (only been paddling sine may).

My paddles are currently 220cm, Im 5'10 16st and think my stroke is quite slow so a shorther paddle might improve things.

Ive been intouch with Lendal directly and they will sell the padlock fitting to make some good splits. Unfortunately the switchlock fitting (that allows adjustable feather) requires a compatible shaft with internal fittings made in.

Thanks for the excellent info Thompo. I have purchased all the backdates of OP but had not got round to that article yet :)

[geoffm]

And I followed fashion, and believed in carbon. Oh, the shame - body wrecked.

Me too! And all this time I thought the beautiful feel and low weight of a carbon paddle (that gets lifted up thousands of times during a day's paddle) was worthwhile. Oh well, better go dig that aluminium shaft out .......

[Bards]

Selkie, I got hold of a Lendal joiner to do exactly as you're considering; I split my one-piece into a shorter two-piece as a spare on deck which also provides variation ref blade. It really was as easy as was suggested on here. The tricky bit was getting hold of someone at NDK, and then they didn't have stock; in fairness they were very helpful, though, one did eventually come through, and as a POI was very reasonably priced.

Bards

[Selkie]

And I followed fashion, and believed in carbon. Oh, the shame - body wrecked.

Me too! And all this time I thought the beautiful feel and low weight of a carbon paddle (that gets lifted up thousands of times during a day's paddle) was worthwhile. Oh well, better go dig that aluminium shaft out .......

The article by Nigel Dennis says that a split Carbon is usually OK and the it is the one piece that is too stiff....Gosh the more you get into it paddles are a complex subject :o

[geoffm]

The article by Nigel Dennis says that a split Carbon is usually OK and the it is the one piece that is too stiff...

That's not quite right Selkie, the article says "Unfortunately a light paddle will mean a one-piece and generally this means a stiff paddle: a disadvantage of this is that it may also bring on injuries."
There are no definite statements here, Nigel Dennis simply states what might happen. Carbon paddles (which he does not specifically mention) can be made light and with varying degrees of stiffness.