Confusing gizmo

[Mark R]

Despite having watched this film twice, I'm still unsure as to what the purpose/ point of this gizmo is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABoGuCPMS4

????

[Voodoo]

is it not just that it combines a tow line with a throw line all in one system, ohh and has a brass quick reasle clip thingy.. was he saing it also can be used as a drouge ?

Not sure if its all a bit faffy ??

I do see a lot of pepole take a throw line out to sea with them normaly if they are not carrying a tow line ,
I normaly have a tow line that I can double as a throwline but its set up for a tow on the back and would take 20-30 sec to re jig to throw,

[tpage]

Money for new rope!

[tg]

Had the man himself demonstrate and practise the use of the throw tow line. I agree it makes little sense to carry both a tow line and throw line. When I was originally 'tutored' in the subtle arts we were told rope and water do not mix. I still follow that creed. My line is in a bag on the deck and I wear a webbing belt to attac and facilitate a tow or just lob the line for a throw rescue; the last time any of this was neccessare was err ... never (well a few years!). At least not sea kayaking, and not for the kind of paddling I do.

I think Jeff is trying to bring some WW techniques to rockhopping. It has to be said the system could be deployed pretty quickly but I still don't fancy all that line and the crabs battering my face. It looks like it would slow your roll down and the weight is born by the paddler not the boat/water so presumably requires more energy. More significantly I thought it might prove a bit of a snag hazard. Line on the boat getting snagged is one thing; but line on me ... ?

I made my own set up like this bur after a little practise and a few try outs I decided to return to my original system. Rescue gear close by on rear deck. It's what I am used to.

Obviously I am not a 5 star coach, with ground breaking expeds under my belt, so my opinion may not count for much. But there it is anyhoo ..

Tim

[Mark R]

How/ when would you use a throwline sea paddling? Is this activity supposed to be combined somehow with the towing?

Not taking the whizz...I genuinely dun geddit.

[Wenley]

Hi Mark,

As I see it, throwing a line has its place when someone is swimming in gullies, rocks, and swell, waves, shoals, etc. don't make getting the rescuer close for a traditional rescue, the best option.

[Mark R]

What, and then you switch it to a towline to drag them out???

[Wenley]

Hi Mark,

Well, just clip the carabiner to your closest deckline, belt, etc., and paddle back to a nice, safe area, while the swimmer holds the bag in one hand and holds onto his kayak (legs crossed over his bow/stern, and free hand holding the pointy end).

[tg]

MarkR

That's pretty fair. I never have. Me and my paddling partner were contemplating in the Summer. Maybe a throw from the boat to shore to secure the boat prior to a wet exit in fast tide parrallel to shingle bank. That was the only scenario we came up with; quite far fetched. We were at the time in a fast ebb along the steep bank of Orford Ness, desperate for a cuppa. We just paddled on to a better landing. Talking abouy the 'What ifs...'; not a bad thing to do.

I think the idea is to have a handy line to protect a rockhop for his group. I agree where will you get leverage from your boat? A throw from your boat to a swimmer in the amongst the rocks and then a tow out after swimmer attaches line to boat blah, blah.., wheres the advantage of having the line on your person, and fixed..?

Tim

[Wenley]

Hi Tim,

wheres the advantage of having the line on your person, and fixed..?

Try to throw the end of the line of a tow far, and see what happens. I think you would need a rather heavy carabiner at its end, and then either it will sink the line making it hard to spot, or hit the swimmer effectively putting him out of his misery.

On the other hand, I find it hard to throw the bag from a kayak, but that well might be lack of practice.

[tg]

Wenley

But attached to your person .. ? Are you saying that has an advantage?

Tim

[Jim]

Well it is possible to throw from a kayak, I remember this because I used to play polo, and people that train for polo can throw with power and accuracy. I just can't think of many occasions where it would be useful from a sea kayak. I also note that Jeff doesn't actually mention throwing from the kayak. I suppose as a multifunction bit of kit, particularly if you are operating in areas where you might need a throwline from the shore, it saves a bit of weight over having separate lines.

For me the whole system has too many components and too many options, you can undoubtedly rig it up 10 more ways than was demonstrated, but whether or not they are useful is another issue - what would concern me is accidentally rigging it in a way that meant it didn't do what you expected. Well that and the whole thing is too bulky. I have an ocean cockpit, it's hard enough getting the back of my spraydeck on as it is so I couldn't wear it round my waist, up to the shoulder it's going to get caught with my VHF, and already I get annoyed if it moves a bit and I end up snagging the aerial as I paddle so that's out, leaving the even worse option of across the chest covering my BA pocket and probably pushing my VHF so the aerial swings out and catches my arm when paddling....

It's an idea, and for the exact sort of coaching Jeff does, I'm sure it has genuine uses, but it's not for me. I'm not confused by it's purpose, but would find it confusing to use....

[Mark R]

Obviously the throwline idea comes from WW...in this environment, throwlines (although an essential bit of kit, I usually carry two) are much less useful for rescuing swimmers than you might think. On continuous WW they're often impractical to use, and whilst on pooldrop WW they make more sense, it's generally expected that a paddler who wants to be invited back should be swimming to shore long before the rope is thrown. My throwlines are my least used piece of WW kit, I have gone years between throws on occasion.

A WW scenario where you throw a line to a swimmer whilst still in your boat...is extremely rare, and not really the done thing. Partly because doing this probably means something basic has gone wrong in your safety set-up (e.g. swimmer stuck in stopper where you should have bank-protected the drop) and you are now in a desperate situation, partly because it just doesn't really work, and mainly because it's really nastily dangerous...
- You can only do shortish inaccurate throws from the boat, especially if your boat is moving/ surging
- Newton dictates that you'll pull yourself into danger too, unless you can hang onto a convenient rock for purchase...which makes pulling impractical anyway
- Ropes are horrible things when mixed with water; as soon as they are used, they immediately break the most fundamental rule of rescue...they put the rescuer at risk. They snag, tangle, hang up, entrap and make simple scenarios complex.

I'm all for more snazzy gear and would be interested to see this thing in action (more videos to follow???) but if the idea is to take lessons from WW paddling, then I think their use in WW has been misunderstood...and either way, it seems to stray some considerable distance out of K.I.S.S. territory...

[Wenley]

Hi again Tim,

My mistake, sorry. I understood that you meant what's the advantage from having the line attached.

I feel that having the end of the line clipped to your belt or the boat, lets you throw, check that the swimmer has grabbed the bag, and then paddle back, with less time with the hands off the paddle.

On the way to wear it, it's certainly bulky but rather light. When I have tried it does not affect my roll at all, but then it can be easily kept on the deck under the bungees.

[tg]

This'll give me something to practise on tomorrow's paddle.

Tim

[Mark R]

Trying to get my head around this thing (I very much agree with the guy above who said it's good to think through scenarios, likely or otherwise).

Ignoring the 'prevention is better than cure' safety concept (i.e. you're supposed to avoid this stuff happening to you in the first place)...

...imagine we have a paddler swimming between rocks, close in to cliffs, in a cave etc...imagine that the water/ swell is too rough for the paddler to swim themselves clear, or for you to paddle close enough to present your stern/ bow for a quick 'hang on' tow...so you want to use the rope gizmo. In such conditions, would you be able to use this rope safely, throw it cleanly enough/ far enough/ accurately enough to assist, without snagging on rocks etc, without compromising your own safety?

Struggling to imagine this.

[mick m]

All this amazing kit keeps usmanufacturers in $$$ for beer

[Jim]

...imagine we have a paddler swimming between rocks, close in to cliffs, in a cave etc...imagine that the water/ swell is too rough for the paddler to swim themselves clear, or for you to paddle close enough to present your stern/ bow for a quick 'hang on' tow...so you want to use the rope gizmo. In such conditions, would you be able to use this rope safely, throw it cleanly enough/ far enough/ accurately enough to assist, without snagging on rocks etc, without compromising your own safety?

Struggling to imagine this.

How about somewhere in between?

You could paddle in and put your bow in the swimmers hands, but the waves are just as likely to make you bang it into their head. In this scenario would it be feasible to stop 3m short and lob a throw/tow towards the swimmer? I mean coming from WW backgrounds we would expect them to lay back and spread their arms when we shout 'rope', but chances are some sea paddlers will be unfamiliar with the concept of present a target for you to throw over.

Would you be able to use it safely?
I've rolled towing with a waist tow on whitewater, I think I was pretty lucky and I wouldn't want to push that luck again. Waist tows are becoming more and more popular on the sea but I prefer my deck tow - not that it would wrap up any less easily, just that I don't need extra stuff round my waist.

If my above scenario was at all feasible, I think rather than have the rope attached to me, I would prefer to use a foredeck mounted tow (there is even more to wipe out on the foredeck!) with a throwline threaded. My 7m throwline would probably be long enough - I'm not going to be going for max power, I seem to remember that when I did that playing polo it often lead to a hand roll, and any kind of roll with a line attached is a no no for me and I sure hell don't expect to be able to hand roll my sea boat. That does raise another issue, I wear my paddle leash on my right wrist, it is sometimes a challenge when taking pictures, it would be a major challenge when throwing a line!

Anyway, I'm still not sure Jeff is intending it for throwing from the boat, the example in the video is a much more plausible one where the coach is on the shore throwing to a swimmer close in. I can see some practical implications here too - if it's rough enough to put someone in, how did the coach get out onto the rocks? Of course Jeff probably coaches all abilities and maybe this is a scenario he finds often in relatively calm conditions with very inexperienced paddlers? I just don't know.

Thinking back to the last time anyone swam on a sea trip I was on, was 2002, and similarly on the river these days it is very rare to use a rope even when set up in advance because boat rescue is so much more effective most of the time. It is just possible that the needs of the likes of you and me vary considerably from the needs of those paddling with beginners?

Anyway that's enough thinking for now, early start. I'm sure it will get discussed on the water tomorrow....

[Wenley]

Hi Jim,

Anyway, I'm still not sure Jeff is intending it for throwing from the boat, the example in the video is a much more plausible one where the coach is on the shore throwing to a swimmer close in.

I think that Jeff indeed has thought up the Throw Tow bag to be throwed from a kayak in a variety of scenarios, particularly bumpy or rough conditions. I had the chance to attend one of his advanced weeks and one of the scenarios was how to rescue an injured swimmer caught up in a gully with the exit pounded by a moderate swell. He made us play with different set ups, stressing several safety principles and Mark is right -the hazard should have been anticipated, the rescuer had to judged before if his safety was not overly compromised, and so on. The suggested set up was having the leader swam to the exit and across the wave -after reading its cycle and length- trailing a line attached to his kayak which in turn was being held in position by two two lines from other kayaks waiting for the word "go" to paddle forward and tow rescuer, kayaks and victim away from the danger zone. The exit of the gully was being watched by other paddler who had to relay any command or incident to the two towers as it was impossible to hear anything happening inside the gully.

Well, the set up was quite complex, and we had two lads in the water. I found that I could not even hear clearly to the paddler that had to relay the instructions, and after a few minutes waiting I misunderstood, a hand sign and started paddling onward clearly pulling Jeff out of the gully before the rescue was over, leaving the victim and his kayak bouncing and crashing inside the gully.

The lessons to be learned where not only that we have not kept a clear communication system (hand signs), but that perhaps there was a simpler solution: e.g. asking the victim before if he was alright, and if so, asking to just swim out of the gully and across the wave to the first kayak bow. In a scenario like that with waves not over 3 feet, Jeff said that it would not had been too difficult as Mark said, to get within 8 metres of him, throw a bag inside the gully exit which was perhaps 2 feet wide, and tow victim and kayak out. I think there would have been a hard tug as the wave crashed on victim and kayak as they were being towed across it, but I don't think the rescuer would have been cleanly swept towards the rock. To play it safe, the rescuer's kayak would need two lines from other kayaks to keep him in position and assist in the tow. Of course, that asks for coordination and good communication.

Regarding how to throw, holding the bag in your hand and driving your arm back as done from the shore does not work in a kayak. What works best for me is to lean back a bit, driving the throw with a twist of the torso. I do not find it too unstable, and as the paddle is held in the other hand, and there are several release systems on the belt, I do not think that a roll would be difficult, if you just let practice sink in.

Besides the obvious caveat on using ropes on bumpy conditions, and the need to practice throws and scenarios, I am sure there are ways to improve on that, pointing out problems in that rescue. However, I stilll think that there would be times when getting close is a big no no (for instance, inside a cave with a swell) and having a line to throw would make all the difference. In the rescue zone is beaten by large waves, I think too that throwing and towing would not work, but then, I wonder what would.

As for the probability of the scenarios well ... I dearly hope not to be in a spot like that, but it's fun and good practice.

[Mark R]

Thanks Wenley, interesting stuff.

I watched the video again - there is no hint at all that...

- it's designed to be thrown from the kayak
- it's designed to be used as a 'combo' piece of kit - e.g. throw to victim then tow away


There is definitely a need for more clarification of the intended benefits and the limitations - another vid could be helpful.

[ian.miller]

I've often carried a standard WW throw line on cave exploring days and have planned to use it with help and support from another paddler. I've tried this out and if someone else is providing you with extra support a throw can be quite effective .Various tow options are available if there are two or more rescuers and it is possible that the urgent need may be to get the boat away from the rocks first if the paddler is not at immediate risk. The difficult bit is towing a swimmer but in a messy situation close to rocks you don't have many options and you may need some ingenuity to sort it out. If you are planning to rock hop or cave explore why not take a throw line? At least then you have the option of finding a solution. Having once had to paddle into a surfy rock garden to help someone out I've never wanted to do it again so I'll put up with having a throw bag on my deck quite happily.
I also have a fairly heavy float on the end of my boat tow line and this enables it to be thrown short distances but there is the risk of hitting the swimmer with it!

[MattB]

Interesting. At least I know what a throw tow is now!!

I'm not convinced. I've recently changed from a deck mounted system to a waist mounted system, but may well carry both in the future. Partly so I can easily attach myself to my boat if I'm in the water, with a releaseable system, and partly so I can give a my waist tow line to another group member to tow a third group member if needed.

£80 seems a lot, for that you could buy a waist tow a and a throw line. I have carried throwlines sea paddling before, but have never used them (well they make good washing lines!!)

The throw tow looks very bulky, and I think may hinder a self rescue. I look forward to being convinced I need one of these, but at the moment I'm not. Food for thought.

Regards

M

[jeffallen]

Hi folks, sorry for the delay in posting a reply, I tried to respond several days ago but for some reason the post was not getting up there and then I had to drive back down from Anglesey and the gear box in the car went. Also apologies to anyone for any confusion or misunderstanding on the video posted on our website, several issues-getting used to new editing software and stuck on a deadline for getting something up in time for a magazine review that went out recently.
We had a load of footage to also go up in support of the Throwtow’s different functions but we couldn’t use a lot of it due to either quality or compatibility issues.
Anyway hopefully this post will make it up and I can shed light on some of the comments...
What I’ve tried to do with the Throwtow is create further options in rescue scenarios, the Throwtow does depend on familiarity and training, yes we throw it from the seat of the kayak, or from the bank.
The system isn’t going to be everyone’s cup of tea but then I’m not force feeding it on anyone anyway, I’ve been using it for about three years now and for me it works. Yes I can roll, re-entry roll, and no, it doesn’t get in the way and isn’t heavy.
As stated, polo players project with accuracy and if we go back to our roots, hunters can also project with accuracy. In this case the 15m system projects well into a variety of rescue scenarios, the guy receiving the bag does need to know what to do with it when it arrives though, here’s where in training we can differentiate between a casualty (a swimmer, possibly injured, but still pro-active in the rescue and his own safety) and the Victim (someone who isn’t able to assist, untrained, panicking, unconscious etc).
So what the throw aspect gives us is the ability to still reach a paddler without putting ourselves at risk.
Maybe it’s because I spend so much time in Rock Gardens that I’ve developed this system.
On an expedition I tend to exercise avoidance, but in training I don’t do this so much, I risk assess the obstacle and decide whether it’s worth doing, there will be an element of risk, that’s how skills are developed and yes mistakes get made and yes we take swims occasionally, sometimes we get beat up a bit, that’s the way we learn, through getting it wrong, not right all the time.
Same with this system, so the feedback your giving me is really valued. I hope some of you get to use the system and see it’s effectiveness but it does depend on your paddling, the sport has such a wide horizon, everyone determines the direction they want to go according to themselves.
The different uses in the system are as follows: Life line-contact tow-swimmer tow-short tow-long tow, throw tow-throw bag and finally it also works as a drogue. A lot of uses and yes you need to understand how it works, but don’t we with everything? Once more my apologies on the lack of clarity in the video, we will get this rectified as soon as possible.

[MattB]

Jeff,
Are you suggesting a possible use, is for a paddler still in his boat to throw the line to a swimmer, possibly if there up against rocks etc? Opposed to the usual WW system of setting up safety before running a rapid?

Thanks

[adrian j pullin]

Mattb - it is not usual for sea paddlers to set up protection as we are usually not running stuff in the same way as river paddlers do. The situations that may use this kit would arise whilst coastal paddling, in particular rock hopping, or exploring caves etc.

May I suggest a possible scenario.

A sea kayaker (let's say for example Harry Whelan) goes into a narrow cave on the eastern side of Porth Dafarch. Therein, he exits his kayak and calls for help. A large set comes in, causing a very nasty graunching sound from the cave, followed by Mr. Whelan uttering some local dialect. Rescuer stands off in the mouth of the cave (whilst others in the group keep an eye on the wave sets) and throws the line to the casualty. Casualty is pulled clear of cave and big hole in one of Mr. Allen's boats is patched up with gaffa on the outside and air bags on the inside.

Until the large wave set, this was a training exercise but it did turn into a real situation with possibly serious consequences. We didn't actually use Jeff's kit because he was still developing it at that time, but in this case it would have made the situation safer for the rescuer.

Cheers

[jeffallen]

Jeff,
Are you suggesting a possible use, is for a paddler still in his boat to throw the line to a swimmer, possibly if there up against rocks etc? Opposed to the usual WW system of setting up safety before running a rapid?

Thanks

Yes

[Mark R]

I saw one of these professionally manufactured by HF at the weekend. Anyone know where they are on sale, please?

[Graham T]

Sea Kayaking Cornwall sell them.
While they are not cheap and more so when I bought mine, I bought it for other uses not mentioned. As an inexperienced paddler who may be out alone, I wanted the ability to clip in and swim the kayak clear of a hazard, to be able to clip in and get out perhaps onto rocks in a self rescue scenario and pull the kayak out afterwards, and if caught out by conditions needing to get back onto a beach in surf deploying the drogue may help in extremis.
I had a Palm Ocean tow before a real phaff to repack etc, so the ease with which Jeffs system can be deployed and restowed is a major plus for me. If I am ever alone and made a mistake I want quick sure and easy, and paid the price as I thought my safety worth it.
The paddler carrying the weight thing mentioned is not an issue, I have the system set up as shown in Jeffs video, and when paddling the bag sits comfortably out of the way on my lap.

[Mark R]

The pic on the SKC site shows the non-HF version???

[Graham T]

Sorry Mark I thought HF stood for a person making the same system not available for sale, what does it stand for ?