Tiderace Production Statement

[Dan@Tiderace]

Following recent speculation Tiderace are delighted to announce some exciting news about our production.

Details can be found on our website by following the link http://www.tideraceseakayaks.co.uk/index.php/news/70-production-announcement .

If any paddlers have questions relating to the news please consult with your nearest Tiderace dealer or ask us directly via info@tideraceseakayaks.co.uk

Thank you,

The Tiderace Team

[Douglas Wilcox]

Good luck with the move, Tiderace!

The quality of windsurfing boards from Thailand is certainly very high indeed. In fact most European windsurfing "brands" are all made in the same factory in Thailand. Maybe this is where Tiderace will also be manufactured?

Although I have no doubts about the quality of manufacture in Thailand, I think it will be very sad if other UK manufacturers follow suit. The new thermoformed Rockpools are an example of a kayak that could be manufactured anywhere in the world. I recently paddled a P&H Cetus that had a Union Jack stuck on its deck. It felt rather good paddling and using something that had actually been made in Britain (I understand that recently P&H also had some kayaks manufactured in the Far East.)

Douglas

[Mark R]

(I understand that recently P&H also had some kayaks manufactured in the Far East.)

They had some made in eastern Europe.

[Graham T]

While I don't know Aled or Dave on a personal level from what I have experienced they both appear to pursue that Tiderace kayaks being a top notch product, and the moves they have made so far seem to support my perception.
I to wish them every success with what I imagine is quiet a demanding move, and look foward to future developments.
That said I also prefer to buy made in Britain, before everything manufacturered has to be imported from abroad. In a gloabl market though anything made here is an import to those overseas hey ho.

[Mark R]

I also prefer to buy made in Britain, before everything manufacturered has to be imported from abroad.

Tiderace have always been made abroad.

[Big Ade]

I do wonder at the culture in this country that we import everything.
Eventually our balance of trade deficit will start to weaken the economy so substantially that we will have no foregin earnings.
Then we will have nothing to trade with.
Then we go bust.
I sincerly hope that any new government realises the importance of UK manufacturing for the UK and to earn foregein currency from exports.
With a bit of government encouragement, I'm sure people are ready to rebuild UK manufacturing.

[delphinidae]

eventually our balance of trade deficit will start to weaken the economy so substantially that we will have no foreign earnings

This is already happening to some extent. Several countries in the West/Eurozone have been running persistent deficits for years, and concerns about the earning ability of some of those countries (i.e. Greece) is creating a bit of chaos at the moment, and a hung parliament in the UK isn't going to help.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an economy that doesn't earn much from manufacturing things. The problem is an economy that persistently borrows more that it earns and/or imports more than it exports, and ends up being extremely vulnerable to price shocks etc. (like those that occured in 2008) or interest rates fluctuations because it is effectively over-leveraged and has reached the limit of its debt servicing ability.

It doesn't matter whether the economy is based on the production of widgets or the production of financial services (or other services like education); what matters is how much the economy earns from the production of anything. At the moment, it isn't enough (hence the structural deficit in the UK), and it isn't immediately obvious where any future growth in earnings (upon which any deficit reduction plans are based) is going to come from.

Good luck Tiderace. It seems that comparative advantage is causing nearly of all of high volume kayak manufacture to move out of the UK at the moment (as it already has done for nearly all kayaking clothing and accessories). Whatever will be left will be low volume bespoke stuff for people that are willing to pay a premium... the kayaking equivalent of Thorn Cycles or Enigma Bikes... I guess that sums up Rockpool to some extent (I have an Alaw).

It is sad, but it seems to be inevitable.

[Graham T]

Hi Mark yes I know they have allways been made abroad, I still feel better about buying made in Britain given a straight option it is better for all of us who live here IMO. I have one Valley boat made in GB one SKSUK boat made in GB, two Tideraces boats one each Finland and Poland that's 2-1 to the UK and the only other purchased so far is from Valley in the UK, leaves one from P&H under consideration would kind of make 4-1 to the UK.
Anyway I have five radio helicoptors 2 from Germany, 1 from Japan, 1 from Hong Kong (American designer) and one FROM TAIWAN Why because nothing similar is made in the UK.
Would I buy another Tiderace if made in Taiwan yes, would I prefer the same product to be available made in the UK also yes.
It is the world we live in and no criticism. I think the Germans and French try harder to buy home grown products as a way of keeping their money in their country

[Graham T]

Having read the other posts I would add I think it was Mr Teflon Tony who tried to move GB Ltd to become the center of world finance, and intellectual business, rather a case of all your eggs in one basket. It is also a concern to me how with any financial institution they actualy have no worth in my eyes, whatever they do you can not use it to keep warm or eat, well maybe if you have enough of the folding stuff you can burn it to keep warm. As I understand the currrent position is we are heavily populated and not able to support ourself in either energy or food, bit like allowing a gun to be put to your head IMO,

[delphinidae]

There are lots of countries that are not self-sufficient in food or energy, but they're ok because they earn enough from the export of other things in order to pay for their food and energy. And they might even run a small (as a percentage of GDP or a percentage of GDP that goes on interest payments) deficit, but they're OK because they earn enough.

What is problematic is not earning enough from all of the things that you produce. It doesn't matter what you produce (although relying heavily on the export of one thing, whether it's oil or financial services, isn't wise); it's about whether you produce enough of whatever you produce (and this is why Greece is in dire straits at the moment).

[Big Ade]

Delphindae,
That was very well put.
I have been concerned about the velocity of money around the UK economy for some time.
My wages come from UK residents, if a proprtion of my wage goes abroad every week (spent on imported goods) then thats a drip less money in the UK economy so eventually less of it available to pay me.
The flow of money around the ecomomy slows down.
Thats less pay or fewer jobs in the whole economy.

I just hope the new government starts to encourage SMEs like Tiderace to manufacture here again.

[Graham T]

I agree what you say is true but what happens when the volcano blows and we can't get food as needed by air ? what happens when there is a food shortage, if you held the food would you export it or eat it your self, over simplification perhaps but you get my drift. If we have no energy production and Russian Oligarchs do and after a bit of a tiff turn the taps off, or they get a better offer from a now richer and more powerfull country what are you going to do ? Seems to me being reliant on other countries for basic needs to the extent we are is short sighted and leaves us very vunerable, regardless of whether the import/export books balance, and having all your eggs in one basket isn't too smart either. Kind of like how many do a sea crossing reliant on one GPS for navigation ?

[tvcrider]

From the prospective of this paddler in the United States, TideRace kayaks are very appealing, but their current price structure here is a bit higher than comparable 'British' boats from NDK, Valley, North Shore, and P&H.
Factor in some excellent sea kayaks produced in Canada (Boreal, Maelstrom, NF, Seward, and Impex) and TideRace is at a pricing disadvantage on our home shores. They also only have four dealers for the entire country! (two on each coast).

It will be interesting to see if moving manufacturing operations from Finland to Thailand reduces the MSRP to the end user?

MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price

BTW, the 'Suggested' term is a bit of a misnomer in the States. More times than not MSRP = exactly what one will pay for a kayak.


FWIW, I currently paddle two Valley boats.

[chrism]

what happens when the volcano blows and we can't get food as needed by air ?

We'd probably survive without mange tout, baby sweetcorn and exotic fruit.

[Graham T]

ROFALMAO however Wrong with global warming we will have our own exotic fruit he he

[Big Ade]

ROFALMAO however Wrong with global warming we will have our own exotic fruit he he

Ok I give up. What does that acronym actually mean?

I guess we ought to go and make our own thread about the future of UK jobs and manufacturing.
But the basic premise of the thread is to wish Tiderace well in their new venture.
And to bemoan the complete lack of regulatory support that allowed them to go offshore in the first place.

[tvcrider]

Ok I give up. What does that acronym actually mean?

ROFALMAO = Rolling on the floor and laughing my ass off

[sprintpaddler]

Tiderace boat built in Thailand, or one built in Finland? No hesitation, the Finnish boat please.
Best of luck though.

Ted.

[al27]

ROFALMAO

What's "the" done to offend you whilst "and" still gets a mention?
Is there some grammatical discrimination that places conjunctions* above definite articles*...

Good luck Aled et all; you're still welcome to drop a demo boat from any country round my workshop!!! 35 CK/Mer people here at the weekend, and not a Tiderace in sight..... Not often my boats outnumber yours ;-)

Al.

*OK, I tried to make sence of an online dictionary... I have no idea about grammar....

[Graham T]

Hi Al you've got me there I have no idea what you are talking about

[delphinidae]

Actually, it should be "ROFLMAO".

The most common usage of the acroynm omits the "the" and the "and". The example above is possibly the first time (after over 15 years on being online; used to use telnet/ew-too based chatrooms a lot) I've seen someone type "ROFALMAO" instead.

[rija]

Tiderace boat built in Thailand, or one built in Finland? No hesitation, the Finnish boat please.
Best of luck though.

Ted.

Charger in Finland are good at composites but before you diss Thailand have you checked out where they move? The Cobra factory where they will build their boats isn't just a cheap low wage alternative, they are probably if not the leading one of the leading composite manufacturers in the world. Check out what they build for the windsurfing, motorcycle, boat industry etc... Necky produces their composite Kayaks there and check out one of their models if you want to see the level of build quality and finish of the kayaks that leave that factory.

I own a Tiderace myself, very happy with it but if you just compare build quality and finish I would say that the Necky composite line, produced at Cobra beats almost any kayak produced in the UK or elsewhere in Europe.

You might have ideological reasons to buy something produced in your own country but personally, when I spend money on something as expensive as a Kayak I am more concerned about quality & service than the country of origin.

[maxturner]

My experience of British built sea kayaks is not positive, I know they are hand built and not supposed to be perfect but I have been dissapointed with every kayak I've had from the likes of Valley/Northshore/P+H, I now just buy cheap plastic kayaks from the likes of Dagger.

[wilsoj2]

My experience of British built sea kayaks is not positive, I know they are hand built and not supposed to be perfect but I have been dissapointed with every kayak I've had from the likes of Valley/Northshore/P+H, I now just buy cheap plastic kayaks from the likes of Dagger.

We've got 5 composite British made sea kayaks in our home fleet (Valley, NDK, P&H). I would be hard pressed to find any problem with the P&H or more recent Valley boats we own. Our other Valley boat (from 2004) is very close to flawless. Even the 2 NDK boats are without notable flaws. I believe my 2008 Nordkapp LV would compare favorably to any boat for quality of build.

[Newdaze]

As someone who works in engineering and remotely manages an IT support desk in India, I'll say that moving production to the Far East totaly makes economic sence for what after all is a business.

I can employ 4 to 5 Indian engineers for the price of 1 UK/USA based engineer. The guys I work with are sharp, highly motivated and work a standard 6 day week. I imagin labour costs in Thailand to be on a similar level. "Buy British" might seem like a great idea but I think the vast majority of people in the UK need to wake up to global economics.

Whether through "product placement" or Finish labour costs, Tiderace kayaks are undoubtedly an expensive personal investment. As someone who ordered an Xplore in February for delivery in April, I've recently been very dissapointed to find that I won't be getting my new toy until August. I just hope that that the upgrade that has been promised as recompence meets with my perception of the quality product that I expect when it finally does arrive on these shores...

[Graham T]

I think the people who have posted are probably all well aware of global economics. Not only that but the reasons and histories behind them to a large degree.
There is a guy called Glen, he owns Glens models. Anyway Glen designed his own radio control models of full scale aerobatic types. He moved with the times into CNC cut parts etc and this together with all glass work etc was made in house in Scotland. Your option now is to buy a constructed and covered, ready to assemble version which I believe is made in China. Talking to him years ago he was ensuring the same wood he used was supplied to the new factory so standards were under control.
As far as I know they are better made and finished than most modelers would achieve, and no doubt it has allowed higher production levels at a reduced cost.
This is unlikely to change in the near future.

[johnb]

My company is sacking Dallas based US R&D engineers and replacing each one with 3 India based engineers.... economic reality. They're pretty well trained and competent, though lacking a bit in industry experience, but they're catching up.

[Jim]

For some aspects of my own job it is cheaper to subcontract to a team of eastern europeans - they can do the work in half the time for much less than half the cost. However this doesn't say everything about it - they can do that because they do it all day every day so are fully up to speed. I have to cover a much wider variety of tasks often requiring considerable innovation.

That about sums up a major difference in UK vs non-UK design or manufacture - if there is high repetition involved our workforce don't want to know, so it will be cheaper to go abroad. If there is a high degree of customisation or uniqueness of product, the high volume factories abroad don't want to know and it will be cheaper, and generally more reliable to keep it in the UK. At least, that's the best marketing strategy the UK has at the moment (and for the last 12 years at least)

Anyway, I'm sure the move will be a good thing, although since I have been dragged off at a tangent, there is an obvious question for tiderace - will there be custom options available?

[Graham T]

"custom options" it is cutting edge technology in Thailand so of course sir custom options no problemo. What did sir have in mind ? How about a Nordlow front with an Anas mid section and an Xcite stern, all blended nicely on our state of the art graphics package, the mould cut from solid using 3d milling machines (not into laser cutting yet are they?) and of course Rocky pool glitter incorporated into the new Carbonlite plastic.. OOPs we forgot you wanted a custom bulkhead when we glued it together.
By the way Jim very thoughtfull on the midges yep stop breathing that will get the job done, I wonder how they are about eating plasma from dead people? I'd be realy "tick"ed off to know they were feeding on my corpse

[delphinidae]

Might as well ask a general question about kayak quality control/acceptable faults then...

I've discovered a few tiny layup voids* on my boat, but I've just filled them on and soldiered on. Other people thought I should kick up a fuss.

Now, if the bow had completely crumpled when I was feeling a bit gung-ho and tried to sprint through a narrow gap a few months go, but ended up smacking into a rock, then I probably would have complained. But it didn't, so I'm still happy.

What's an acceptable fault and what isn't?

*(usually after bashing the unsupported/unbound area of gelcoat with something, and it's always on area/recess where the cloth has been folded a lot. Why does gelcoat flex so much when it is part of layup, but is so brittle when it isn't?)