P and H Scorpio Skeg problems.^

[barryd]

Hello everyone,

Glad to be on the forum as a member, have been reading a few topics quietly in the shadows for a while now...
Bought a P and H Scorpio 170 which was delivered last week. And so far I'm quite happy with it, although pretty limited paddling round Irvine harbour, due to time constraints and a ten month old son...
First time in the water, about 40 minutes or so, and the blue cord that controls the skeg had popped through both tiny holes on the slider making it useless...
On closer inspection the cord had been threaded with one flimsy knot and the cord was all frayed and split ends. To me it looked very poor and dare I say an afterthought.
Tried for what seemed like several hours this morning to feed it back through again - impossible as knot tied tight and the cord damage, into what seems like tiny holes that aren't in line with each other.
Phoned dealer, but he wasn't sure either and advised to phone P and H on Monday...
Sorry to be posting a problem straight away, but just wondering how the problem could be rectified...

Many thanks,
Barry.

[MikeB]

Check this. Ignore all the stuff about fixing the wire and go to the bottom of the page. Specifically, the reference to known problems with the Cetus / Scorpio skegs. There are a number of links there to helpful / background articles.

You may well have an early version of that system in which case there is a fix from P&H.

Mike.

[barryd]

Mike, thanks for that I'll have a look now.

[MikeD]

Hi Barry.
sorry to hear about the problem with the skeg cord, get on the phone to the dealer who supplied the boat, they should have a replacement cord, and should do this 5 min. job for you. If they do not have the blue dyneema kite cord, talk to P&H, they will be able to help.


Mike

[barryd]

Hi Mike,

Yeah spoke to the dealer twice this afternoon. He seemed very willing to help, but didn't know how to. Apparently they don't stock the replacement cord, and to be honest he knew nothing about it. Douglas Wilcox has a very good posting on his forum about replacing the cord, complete with instructions too. You are right Mike it does look fairly straight forward - 10 or 15 mins should see the job done.

Would I be correct in saying the only people I can obtain the cord from is P and H themselves???

Is this a common problem??

Seems poor, that I can spend £1250 pounds on a boat and be let down with what is really a piece of string....

[MikeB]

Yes, common problem. Douglas' blog article is the definitive reference for this! If this is a new boat, your dealer really should be sorting this out.

Has the boat got the "spacer" or the slider with the pin thingie as described by Douglas? If so, then all you need is the cord and anysuitable cord will do - I'd suggest a chandlers as they'll have something suitable. That said, why not just get onto the dealer and/or P&H and get them to sort it / send you the fix kit? If it doesn't ahve either the spacer or the revised slider, then just replacing the cord isn't going to sort it properly it seems.

I tried a Cetus with that skeg system and didn't like it at all - but, it's what's on the boat so the solution is to sort it.

[Summit to Sea]

If it's got the blue cord on, that's the new kite line and is the stuff that solves the earlier problems.

However, if the small plastic plug was missing then the knot would pull through.

If it's any help, I can post one direct to you to get the problem fixed, from my stock, Free of Charge.

If you'd like me to do that, please PM me with your address.

Regards,
Pete

[barryd]

Yes its the newer design as described by Douglas in his post. I stripped the skeg out this morning and cut the blue cord, and certainly as you mention there is no plastic plug there at all. So that makes sense too.The cord also seemed on the shortish side.

Anyway Pete, thanks for your kind offer of sending one up to me, I'll PM you my details.

As for the dealer he gave me a couple of phone numbers for P and H and told me to phone them tomorrow.

[MikeD]

Hi Barry,
lots of Mikes on this post :-)

I just took a quick look at the kari-tek site, according to them it is possible to order kayaks from P&H with the hydro-skeg fitted from the factory...... ??? whene did P&H start offering this, anyone know ?

MikeD

[MikeB]

At least a year or so to my recollection. I'd certainly use the KariTek skeg system over the abomination P&H fit as standard to the Cetus. As Douglas said on his blog - there's nothing wrong with the wire operated skeg and mine works perfectly and has done for years.

Mike.

[barryd]

Hi Mike d,

I didn't know that either, if the scorpio was composite, then I would seriously take up that option. It will be noted for future reference as I hope to buy something else to keep down at my holiday home in South -West Scotland for next summer.
I'm fortunate enought to just live twenty minutes away from Kari-Tek in Ayrshire - very helpful people indeed.

The other Mike - so wire skegs not a problem per se - you have used yours without any problems...

So why have P and H rushed to the kite cord option, and is this now on all newer P and H models???

[MikeB]

The other Mike - so wire skegs not a problem per se - you have used yours without any problems...

So why have P and H rushed to the kite cord option, and is this now on all newer P and H models???

Yep - in fairness, it did have a small prob in that the conduit came away from the side of the boat in the cockpit area, but that was more due to me stuffing things down the side by the seat. That gave it a "stickyness" as the conduit allowed the cable to flex rather than transmit the pushing force to drop the skeg. 10 mins work with epoxy fixed that.

With a wire operated skeg it's a good idea to pull the cable once a year and lube it with furniture polish (not oil) - P&H advise that in their instructions and I detailed the process in the skeg repair article. Any skegs I've ever come across which weren't smooth were always fixed by doing that. I suspect that if this was done at time of manufacture, there'd be far dfewer complaints and problems. Certainly it's worth doing to a new boat as a matter of course.

I think I last did that maybe 5 years ago and the boat is 7 or 8 years old now.

If the boat gets any sand into the conduit, which is easy if it's been anywhere near a decent surf beach as sand gets into the conduit (and it will) then pulling the cable and hosing the conduit should jsut be regarded as normal servicing.

As to why P&H have changed the skeg - who knows. Progress? In fairness, the concept they are using is, in principle, possibly better than a wire skeg as it defaults to "down", but I think the racheted slider is a pain to operate, and clearly there's work to be done getting the right amount of tension set on the bungee. The engineering concept seems a little flawed - using a thin cord attached in such a way as to provide minimal mechanical advantage to pull it up against a strong bungee seems strange - but I'm not an engineer so who am I to comment.

That said, I dont like cord operated skegs anyway. I frequently adjust the skeg position on the Quest, flicking it up for an upwind turn and then dropping it again if needed on the new course. The slider runs so easily on my boat that I can do that without even taking my hand off the paddle. Which can't be done with the latest sliders as you've got to fight the ratchet.

Mike

PS: Skegs! Wonderful things - always a regular source of conversation adn discussion!

[Mark R]

Am I the only guy whose (original design) Cetus skeg works fine?

Not a great fan of the design though - too fiddly, can't see what it brings to the party over the wire system.

Mark

[barryd]

PS: Skegs! Wonderful things - always a regular source of conversation adn discussion!

Mike, try telling that to my non-paddling wife :) If I mention the 'S' word again today she may bash me over the head with something large and heavy...

[barryd]

Am I the only guy whose (original design) Cetus skeg works fine?

Not a great fan of the design though - too fiddly, can't see what it brings to the party over the wire system.

Mark

Yes Mark extremely fiddly and difficult, yesterday I was wishing for the fingers and hands of my ten month old son, and the patience of the Buddha himself...

Sadly I have neither...

[MikeD]

Not a great fan of the design though - too fiddly, can't see what it brings to the party over the wire system.

Mark

After replacing a skeg cord in less than 10 mins. with just a knife and a straw, compared to around 20 minutes with the old wire system involving wire-cutters & a very small allen-key, I think that field maintainance is more viable with the new system, and the fact that it flips-up on contact with rocks or sand if forgotten......

On the other hand, I am not looking forward to this new system in the depths of winter with water temps well under freezing........ even a wire system was at times un-usable due to ice in the skeg box & skeg pipe last year, maybe a hydro skeg would work better ? do they have anti-freeze installed ??

Mike

[MikeB]

Ah - so THATS why the Inuit didn't have skegs on their boats!

My wire skeg flips up on contact.

As to icing up - I admire your courage!

Mike.

[NickB]

I had a bungy down, string up system on my Meridian (late 70s early 80s) what a pile of fiddly cr@p, no positive push down meant that whether it deployed or not was pretty random! and that you didn't know whether it was down or not! (except for the handling feedback).

My Onion has had the P&H wire skeg for over ten years, never been maintained beyond a very occasional silicon spray and slide (I have never drawn the cable out for maintenence) excellent system and if (when!!) I ever get to change my boat a bungy driven skeg might be something that crossed the boat off the options list regardless of other features!!

[MikeD]

Ah - so THATS why the Inuit didn't have skegs on their boats!Mike.

Good point :-) My hope is that I will not have to use a skeg during the winter..... I find that at my perfect 80Kg (+ 5 - 8Kg kit) weight (I am on the other hand a little under-tall !!!!) the Cetus LV that I use for day trips & teaching has yet to need the skeg.... no matter what the weather, it just powers into the direction I point it. It just goes to show how important kayak sizing is.... If I paddle a full size Cetus or Quest LV without a good amount of kit then she skeg is more or less a must.

As to icing up - I admire your courage!

One of my favorite paddles is night paddles in the depths of winter, seeing the sunset and later looking up to a star filled sky, what is not so much fun is finding your vest & spray-deck are encrusted in sea-ice as you return to the take-out.... but then again it makes a good excuse to break open the Bowmore :-))


Mike

[Douglas Wilcox]

Mike, might I particularly recommend the 16 year old cask strength Bowmore?

Douglas

[MikeD]

Mike, might I particularly recommend the 16 year old cask strength Bowmore?

Douglas

Douglas you are a scholar & a gent., with excellent taste :-) That is one of my favorites, I generally like it with good time to enjoy the complex flavors.
After a long, hard, cold & exhilerating paddle in sub zero temperatures I have found that this is my tipple of choice is the really big Ardbeg Uigeadail

I am now looking forward to getting back into a kayak once again after a period of r&r after back surgery, this did not affect the plaeasures afforded by the water of life.......

Mike

[nickcrowhurst]

maybe a hydro skeg would work better ? do they have anti-freeze installed ?? Mike

Yes, antifreeze and water mixture.
Nick.

[wideblueyonder]

I have a Cetus - fantastic boat but Skeg control went on about the 4th paddle. Very quick and helpful response from P&H with immediate offer to replace etc however, required return to P&H for fixing.

Replaced with a Hydro Skeg this Summer and over the moon - so simple/smooth to use. Looks very complicated but seems to be very low maintenance and certainly not prone sticking rope/bent wire issues. Big outlay however but I think, long term will be well worth the investment. Few words/images etc here

[Chris W]

I also paddle a Cetus LV nowadays. With me weighing in at a mere 77 kgs (12 stone), it's ideal for long day trips. Putting it through its paces in swell at St Albans Head and Hope Cove I've found that it tracks and turns/ edges very effectively without deploying the skeg at all. I assume that's because of the balance they've achieved between the length of the waterline and the amount of rocker under the water line. I haven't had any problems with the skeg so far, however, it does seem to require a strong left thumb at times to raise the skeg!! Having said that, I've only paddled the boat 7 times since I started paddling it about 6 weeks ago, so time will tell......

Chris.

[wideblueyonder]

To be honest - I also found I was able to cope with a decent amount of wind by use of edging and adapted strokes over the 3 months I spent 'skegless'. The tracking is generally very good for a boat that is so responsive/manouverable.

However, with the bigger winds and over long day paddles, it was tiring continually edging/adapting strokes etc and I started to long for the skeg.

[Douglas Wilcox]

I weigh 90kg and have been paddling a Cetus on camping trips. Like Chris and wideblue, I initially thought this boat did not need a skeg at all. However, I changed my mind on an exposed 15 km crossing from the south end of Colonsay to West Loch Tarbert on Jura. Three days before, an intense low pressure with winds up to force 9 had stirred up the Atlantic and we had a westerly force 4+ wind and irregular 2m swell on our starboard quarter. The slider mechanism had got jammed (with the skeg up) by Colonsay's fine sand getting in between the thumb slider and its box on the cockpit edge. Despite being able to correct the Cetus's continuaI tendency to broach (in these conditions) with edging, I was cursing the lack of skeg by the time we got across. My three companions had a very pleasant time in their Quests, with fully functional skegs. Earlier, In similar conditions, with just a little skeg deployed, the Cetus was an absolute joy to power down wind and swell.

Douglas

[Chris W]

Hello Douglas. No, I've got no qualms about dropping the skeg in a cross wind!! The relatively low, flat front deck seems to minimise the exposure to wind pretty well, whilst shedding water from waves before it reaches the deck. So far so good. Incidentally, I tried a full size Quest last week. It didn't feel excessively big to me but the seat position seemed rather high (and to the owner, despite weighing 100 kgs), making it a hard boat for me to hand roll and for him, not as stable as he was expecting, unloaded. Is that typical?

Chris.

[Douglas Wilcox]

Hello Chris, the original GRP Quest seat sat really low in the boat and could be lowered even further by taking some of the foam out from the front edge. The later plastic seats with the foam pad on top are fitted incredibly high. I could not believe how unstable my daughter's Quest LV felt with this seat. I lowered it and then no problem. Six of my regular paddling companions also have Quests, we have all lowered the seats!

Douglas

[Mark R]

incredibly high.

I think not.

[Douglas Wilcox]

Hello Mark, let me be more precise!

When my daughter's Quest LV arrived, I could not fit in it and even she had to squeeze in. I removed 4 inches of foam from under the rear of the seat and 3 inches of foam from the front of the seat. As delivered, my older Quest with a GRP seat had 1 inch of foam under the front of the seat which I reduced to 1/2".

It is not just P&H that put a lot of foam under their plastic seats. I had no trouble fitting in SPS's demo Nordkapp LV but when my own arrived I could not fit in under the thigh braces. My own boat had several inches of extra foam that the demo boat did not. It also had a different plastic seat that was much wider preventing it fitting low in the hull. Fortunately Valley supplied several of us, who were in the same situation, with plastic seats the same as that fitted to the demo boat.

I had noticed that the P&H plastic seat in my daughter's Quest LV also had a wide profile, which did not allow it to fit low in the hull, so I fitted the spare (narrower) Valley one into the Quest LV.

One of the reasons I like Rockpool is that their seats come fitted as low as possible as standard. Of course this might not suit folk that like high seats.

Douglas