Environmental impact - clearing trees

[JimmyP]

To reply to the post above, all the paddlers who paddle it can control their boats and have been paddling in the lakes for years, yes we are students but we paddle the river most often, will continue paddling the river and we all hav paddled the line on the left successfully without landing on rocks , maybe stu can't paddle that line because he can't control the boat but others can.

The line on the right also has a rock at the very base of the fall and in normal levels you can land on it, and I have seen a very near vrtical pin. The reason the tree was removed was for safety reasons, as mentioned in this post http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=44433&p=360645#p360645 A number of people have swam and been caught dangerously because of the tree, therefore it was removed, it can grow back and probably will, hopefully growing away from the river.

Jay

Who gave you the right to remove that tree?

[El Pres]

Like Stuart, Ive paddled the river quite a few times over the last few years and to be honest,I never even noticed the tree.
I'm well aware of my paddling ability and limitations, so it cant have been that much of a hazard.

Having cleared several hazards from rivers, I suppose we make desisions based the information we have, and our own values.

Just to add on this interesting subject, where do we "draw the line" say, next doors branches are overhanging into your garden. Whats the environmental difference? I dont know.

[Jay Oram]

Hey, you criticised our paddling first.

It was only ever a risk to those not in control of their paddling

Overall, I agree with everyone here, it should be looked at on a case by case study. We have run the river with the tree and found it to be a large unnecessary risk, with different groups of paddlers, locals and students. Everyone has said it was a good idea to remove for safety reasons.

Jay

[Dave T]

We have run the river with the tree and found it to be a large unnecessary risk, with different groups of paddlers, locals and students. Everyone has said it was a good idea to remove for safety reasons.

Jay Im local to this river and have ran it a lot in the last 10 years from low to flood without any problems involving that tree for myself and anyone else in my group. If you/ someone in your group have had problems with that tree everytime you did the river maybe it would of been an idea to get out well above it and portage or paddle something else. The river right line is easy enough to make in any level and in my opinion if you can't make that maybe you should practice on easier water rather than hacking down a tree that has been there a lot longer than 10 months! It has been paddled for a lot of years now with no problems so its massively irritating for someone who is staying in the area for a relativey short time (3 years?...) to come and destroy it.
I also noticed on your blog you have lots of posts involving access, do you think this kind of behaviour will help with the public image of kayakers??? Unfortunately this is done now but next time a living tree gets in your way that has an easy route around it maybe paddle round it or get out and walk before you get your saw out!

[Jay Oram]

Me and my family and local paddling club have been paddling in the lakes since I was little and I have paddled the Caldew for about 5 years and true, I have always run the right line and still can, it just so happens that I came to university in cumbria and paddle the same rivers. No one has had trouble before but having paddled with students at the university and run harder rivers, the tree seemed to be a big problem.

Maybe the tree was much smaller in years before, maybe the large flood recently filed the tree with gunk and made it worse; we made a judgement and to be ohnest none of us have to justify what we did to people online, if everyone did it would be an endless argument.

I think in regard to access, we should show we have our own ideas and take things into our own hands, if something is unsafe, fix it. I suppose one of the problems with access is that no one will do anything in case it will upset someone else, just do it and stop talking!!

[callwild]

Yes Jay you obviously feel you dont have to justify anything, but you must realise your actions do have a major impact on others and the area so can be called into question and asked to be justified. As I have said we all make similar decisions which can be awkward at times but what we are trying to get accross and you should possibly take on board is that to remove that particular living tree which did not really hinder paddling of the river was inappropriate and that in the future more consideration for the environment should be taken.
You obviously thought you were doing paddlers a service by announcing this and dedicating blog space to it so I can understand a bit of dissapointment when you find out many are not so enthusiastic, but if you post things on the internet you have to accept the consequences of people commenting.
To admit some humble pie and learn from the experience shows more maturity than trying to justify it, so I can only hope you think more in the future and as a possibly future outdoor instuctor teach those that you accompany in the outdoors to also consider the implications and respect all aspects of the environment.
You say

if something is unsafe, fix it.

No not if its not yours to fix, if its unsafe, avoid it.
The loss of this particular tree will be in my thoughts every time I now go to the Caldew as it makes a change to this fall which will remind me of this.
Its not a personal attack on you but a a guide to future actions. We can all learn from comment and debate.

and by the way if you really want to do far more paddlers a service with your saw I can think of at least 3 seriously dangerous DEAD trees sticking into the main flow on the Greta which could do with being removed. :) :)

[JimmyP]

to be ohnest none of us have to justify what we did to people online

You do if you are going round vandalizing OUR natural heritage and then telling people online about it.

[El Pres]

Jay
From this thread

Me and my family and local paddling club have been paddling in the lakes since I was little and I have paddled the Caldew for about 5 years

From your Blog

Thursday, 19 June 2008
University Paddling
My first year of university is over and it went so quickly, I had never paddled in the Lake district before September last year

Which one ?

[TechnoEngineer]

You do if you are going round vandalizing OUR natural heritage and then telling people online about it.

Oh come on, please! That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? It's hardly as if they went around demolishing the "six oaks" remaining in Sevenoaks, is it?

[caveman_si]

Me and my family and local paddling club have been paddling in the lakes since I was little and I have paddled the Caldew for about 5 years and true, I have always run the right line and still can, it just so happens that I came to university in cumbria and paddle the same rivers. No one has had trouble before but having paddled with students at the university and run harder rivers, the tree seemed to be a big problem.

Maybe the tree was much smaller in years before, maybe the large flood recently filed the tree with gunk and made it worse; we made a judgement and to be ohnest none of us have to justify what we did to people online, if everyone did it would be an endless argument.

I think in regard to access, we should show we have our own ideas and take things into our own hands, if something is unsafe, fix it. I suppose one of the problems with access is that no one will do anything in case it will upset someone else, just do it and stop talking!!

While I have no issues with removing dead trees accross rivers I do draw the line at whole living trees just next to a river especially when according to those photos it appears to be the only tree for miles. Possibly an important habit in the area. On one hand you say youve run it for 5 yrs but on the other cant remeber if it was smaller in the past, if you cant rememeber how much of an issues was it? Back to chopping down a live tree, did you look at protecting it so it can grow in the future? Did you consider not cutting it down? The drop looks like it goes in the left and it looks like it portages fine so again why cut it down?

[banzer]

Chopping a few overhanging branches from a tree = no problem
Chopping down a living tree = not so cool
Removing a dead tree from a river = no problem. IMO, talking about disrupting habitats, changing natural flow patterns etc. is all a bit excessive. We're only talking the odd bit of wood here and there, not some massive eco-ravaging calamity.

I like the suggestion that Stu might not be able to handle his boat. Most guidebook writers I know are, in fact, rubbish kayakers. ;-)

[geyrfugl]

How about this one ? Consider it a wezzit, too. I think we would have liked to clear this one but didn't have a saw with us at all. Instead we walked round this rapid, which was a pity as it looked one of the most challenging on this river. Anyone know if it's still there (once you have solved the wezzit) ? It's on my list of possible rivers this season ...



Andy

[pete thorn]

Environment Agency officers tell me they are tasked with ensuring removal of major tree blockages, as they become huge blockages in flood conditions, as other debris hooks up on it. When this temporary dam gives way, a whole bundle of debris and water crashes off downstream, causing mayhem, as in the Lynmouth disaster. The EA have specialist teams who do this work, though we might have to wait a while for them to arrive. This is also the responsibility of riparian owners. The National Trust do a lot, but aren't trained or equipped to deal with bigger stuff, apparently.
See current situation on the East Lyn in South West.

[callwild]

How about this one ? Consider it a wezzit, too. I think we would have liked to clear this one but didn't have a saw with us at all. Instead we walked round this rapid, which was a pity as it looked one of the most challenging on this river. Anyone know if it's still there (once you have solved the wezzit) ? It's on my list of possible rivers this season ...



Andy

Is that the Greta, at the Morrit Arms?
As for the tree; I wouldn't worry about clearing that as its fallen in and uprooted, probably eventually die or get washed away anyway in a flood, in the short term it could cause problems with other debris piling up on it. There are plenty of other trees in the area to sustain the habitat, it could be awkward to stop and portage in higher water. It could possibly be best to try and swing it around to run along the bank so clearing the river but leaving it in place.

Stuart Miller

[RustySub]

I have to agree with everyone. I've never had a problem with that tree and it was an easy portage if someone wasn't comfortable with it, it was also a fairly easy one to miss. With the current access problems thrown at paddler, chopping down a tree that is clearly one of very few in the area so that also makes it enviromentally significant, it doesn't do much to help us.
I've also noticed some negative views towards students on this thread as well, can I just ask that we're not all tarred with one brush.