Good idea or bad?

[Mark R]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but UK sea paddling still lacks a really decent website; one which offers technical info, collates reports and news and gets paddlers together.

It has crossed my mind that I could try to set up such a site under the umbrella of this site, dividing the river and sea aspects more clearly. I could give it a shot, but preferably someone else would do the editting and updates for the sea side of things.

Any thoughts???? Ideas?


-----------Mark Rainsley

[MikeB]

VERY good idea! Count me as a supporter and if I can help, I will. Cautious though about making promises I can't keep (work / study / time paucity etc).

Still to build a site for Dumfries - been promising that now for ages!

Mike.

[Helen]

Still to build a site for Dumfries - been promising that now for ages!

Funny this should crop up today - hope your ears were buring Mike cause you were being talked about! Now that Rab has his supa dupa video/digi camera thingie (very hi-tech!)we're getting some great river footage and stills - would look just great on a website - all we need now is - yes you've guessed it - THE WEBSITE! Forget about work/study/having a life etc - Build us a website! (Please)

Helen

[MikeB]

Exams in May, and then I'll play!

Seriously, I think that Rab's stuff (and indeed pics from the superb Raasay/Rona trip etc) would be ideal for the site.

If anyone can "beat me to it", I have no prob with that! :D (Being kind of aware of 'overpromising' ;)

Mike.

[Craig Addison]

Mark, have a word with Richard Seaby, re website, he was talking about doing something along these lines a couple of years ago, but nothings materialised yet, perhaps he can help with your idea.

Craig.

[Richard Seaby]

My problem has always been to find a good format for the information. (and the time to do anything about it!)

Should it be done by trip, eg Lymington to the needle and back

Or by the launching site - eg information about where you can go from Lymington

or by area- eg nice paddles in the Solent.

Then each of these results in difficulties on how to manage the information on tide, hazards etc. Most of the major hazards are the same for all sea trips I suppose - boats, tides and weather, but how to put them into a useful page?

I have played around with several formats - I like the idea of a similar system of heading to marks site - anybody fancy suggesting some! Here are a few of the top of my head.

Launch site
Access
Ideal Tide
Ideal Wind
No go tide
No go Wind
Hazards (out of the ordinary)
Round trip
Destination
Time required
Lunch Spots
Alternative routs/ weather runaways.
Commitment required/grade
Possible camp sites
Useful contacts

The final list would depend on the organisation of the site - by trip, site or area.

Any thought anyone?

I had a quick hunt for domains - UKseakayak, seapaddles, seaguidebook (all .co.uk) are still available - are there any preferences? the seaguidebook would keep it under this site.

Richard

[sub5rider]

"anybody fancy suggesting some"

Pubs!

I've been mulling this over in the light of my one and only sea trip so far...


GPS waypoints?
Campsites definately, water sources, shops?
Organisation by touring area? By island/island group ?

Tidal info for specific trips, eg around Holyhead via Inland Sea, around Anglesey.

[Jim]

I can see how this presents problems, have you thought about something similar to the layout of a yachting pilot, only more specific for kayaks?

I think basing it around launch sites, or popular towns/ports would be a good idea, although launch sites might be impossible! Whilst there may not be that many spots you are allowed to launch in England (at least without spending money) there must be thousands in Scotland (although the rugged nature and lack of roads will narrow it a little).

For each launch site/port you could list the hazards/points of note/tide streams etc. from between halfway to the previous port to half way to the next port.

You could then include distances to or around other interesting destinations from that port, and then link to a deeper level with descriptions of possible/popular trips.

For example if you read Pauls account of a trip from Ullapool and my account of the summer isles this year, you will notice we paddled in much the same area, but used very different start points and routes to take in the same sights! Paul started from Ullapool, where granted there is plenty of parking and shops and stuff - and you can get a bus back there from other places. But it does mean you have to paddle out of Loch Broom before you can start to explore the islands. We started at Old Dornie, which is the middle of nowhere (has a pub nearby), right beside the northernmost isles but there is no way you would ever catch a bus there to collect cars! In addition to that either group could have started from other points on Loch Broom, anywhere between Old Dornie and Achiltibuie, on Little Loch Broom (Dundonnell say) or around Gruinard bay - we looked a crossing to Priest Island from Mellon but abandoned it (fortunately, as the others weren't there). Both groups finished in Lochinver, Paul explored Gruinard and Enard bays in addition to the Summer Isles, we crossed Enard bay to explore the area around of Point of Stoer. The only way I can think of to make sense of all this would be to have Ullapool as a launch site/port and then list all the possible alternative launch sites near there under it, plus all the islands (well the big ones), intersting villages, arches and caves etc. Lochinver would be the next port, the previous one could be Dundonnell, or perhaps Poolewe or Gairloch depending on whether it is better to break the coast into manageable chunks or to use towns that have services!

Just some thoughts, I didn't think I'd thought that much but obviously I have!

JIM

[adrian j pullin]

Richard's list looks pretty comprehensive. My thoughts on it are:

Launch site - definitely
Access - legal and physical (can you get cars near the beach or whatever)
Ideal Tide -
Ideal Wind -
No go tide -
No go Wind - I would group these under a general heading of go/no go conditions. Some never matter (e.g. the trip may go at any tide) some a critical.
Hazards (out of the ordinary) - yes
Round trip - don't understand what this is for?
Destination - yes
Time required - yes
Lunch Spots - yes
Alternative routes/ weather runaways. -yes
Commitment required/grade -yes but how do you assess it. I don't think there is a grading system like rivers
Possible camp sites - yes
Useful contacts - yes, including local coastguard info

I would add chart/map info. Which charts and O.S. maps cover the area.

As for other ideas:

Never been that interested in pubs on paddling trips. I've always gone, paddled and then gone home. Maybe cafes as well?

GPS: How many people use these things? Are they reliable? Are they cheating?

Organise by geographical area, so people can pick their base (or plan trips from home for those of us who live near the sea).

[sub5rider]

"GPS: How many people use these things? Are they reliable? Are they cheating?"

1. Lots - but not as many now as used to...(see 2)

2. Yes - if kept dry

3. No. They're a useful adjunct to map & compass*. Almost worth it for cross-track error alone. And I like to know how far I've paddled/walked/ridden. Would not go to sea without one. Which rather curtails my paddling at the moment.....


Nigel

* But PLEASE don't let's get into THAT debate

[Jim]

"Ideal Tide -
Ideal Wind -
No go tide -
No go Wind - I would group these under a general heading of go/no go conditions. Some never matter (e.g. the trip may go at any tide) some a critical."

Also depends on the group and the point of the trip, thus difficult to quantify. It is worth knowing wind directions that will be offshore or will create dumping surf and prevent landings with approximate strengths I guess. Also notes about the wind/tide conditions that create overfalls or make them considerably more serious would be helpful. Locations of tide races and streams with approximate strengths and timings is essential for many locations, but surely most people will try and time their trip to make use of these rather than cancel?

"Commitment required/grade -yes but how do you assess it. I don't think there is a grading system like rivers"

Maybe Richard is thinking of making up a system? Not unfeasible, perhaps difficult!

"GPS: How many people use these things? Are they reliable? Are they cheating?"

- Lots as far as I can tell. We had between 4 & 6 in a group of 13!
- They are exactly as reliable as any electronic device you take to sea. Longevity depends on how you protect them, I was tricked into leaving my dry bag behind! SA is off so my cheap unit regularly reports accuracy of 7m or less, with WAAS accuracy is down to 3m, that's less than a boat length. As far as I can tell there are no plans to turn SA back on.
- Absolutely not! I agree with any argument about the danger of relying on electronics for navigation, but apart from making life a bit easier GPS offers so many benefits you otherwise wouldn't get:

> Speed. How can you tell exactly how fast you are going at any time otherwise? With GPS you can stop paddling and find out how fast and in which direction you are drifting with wind/tide.
> Waypoints/routes. You can see whether you are going high or low of the direct line to your next waypoint, and alter bearing/transits to get a shorter crossing.
> When you find a cave, or small beach (perhaps the only one on a rocky island) you can mark it and then have a 10 fig GR to help you find it again or tell someone else. Much easier than trying to triangulate your exact position in a sea boat. Also consider trying to find a location on someone else's triangulate GR - you have to identify features that confirm you are in the 100m square and then paddle around it searching - the GPS will take you about a boat length away from it first try!
> Track log. Ever wanted to do a post paddle analysis of a trip, how far off course did the tide push us etc.???? Transfer your GPS log back to your PC and overlay it on an electronic map and it's all there!
> Work with maps and charts? How do you get around the fact that charts use latitude and longitude (often with no grid at all) rather than the OS km grid squares you get on a map? With a GPS you can set the unit to whichever system you need (lat/long or BNG) and enter the waypoints directly from the chart or map. On the water set it to whichever is most convenient (map usually, BNG) and all the waypoints from the other are automatically converted for you so you can read off the GR, or more usually just paddle to the waypoint.
> Ever wondered how long you have left to dark and if you can get to your destination before then? GPS uses your position to calculate when the sun will set (you need to factor for twilight or overcast conditions). It also uses your position and current speed to tell you hw long it will take you to get to your next waypoint if you maintain that speed. Wonderful for those "s**t, we really need to get a push on guys" decisions!
> Fun. Playing with electronic toys is fun, everyone knows that!

As to what GPS info to provide, GRs for launch, landing, camping, etc. etc. are all that's required. You can just type these into your GPS and away you go (with map and compass). Obviously you get the GRs by getting folks with GPS to mark such spots when they are out and about (or use saved track logs from older trips) - the information is useful for everyone if you use standard OS GRs (don't forget to include the major grid letters!).

JIM

[Mark R]

I'm not sure how practical a guide to the sea is, it really wasn't what I had in mind. Although I've heard some worthy suggestions for what kind of 'sea guide' info might be useful, I suspect that...

a] much of this can already be trawled from other more authoritive sources.
b] much of what is suggested is too ambitious for most sea paddlers to put on paper...?

I would see the priorities of a sea kayak community as being...

> Community pages (ie. this)
> Techie geeky articles, reviews and reports (this is what excites sea paddlers in the way that ww paddlers get excited about guidebooks)
> Trip reports
> A really decent set of links focussed on UK sea paddling, weather etc.
> Notes and info on local conditions/ launching etc. *where directly applicable to sea paddlers*

...and yes, I also checked the same urls myself! I did note that beardyweirdies.co.uk was available.

How about it, Richard, others? I could set up some kind of framework and you could edit away at your leisure.

The main thing is that somewhere is identified as a base for UK sea paddling on the web. Once this is achieved, the site can go wherever its users take it.


-----------Mark Rainsley

[Jim]

" I'm not sure how practical a guide to the sea is, it really wasn't what I had in mind."

"> Notes and info on local conditions/ launching etc. *where directly applicable to sea paddlers*"

Surely over time this would turn itself into a guide, assuming people contribute.

I daresay there are hundreds of trips that don't even need tidal considerations (which I suspect is going to be the hardest info to weedle out of people) - take the summer isles for example, with a maximum tide of 1 knot in the narrows of Loch Broom (10km or more south) and barely 1/2 a knot anywhere in the archipelago tide streams are not worth mentioning. What is worth mentioning is that landing at low tide may leave you facing crossing a vast expanse of greased boulders, if there is a landing at all (the tiny beach on Priest island was fast giving way to large rocks by the time we left it, which explains why Paul couldn't find a way ashore!).

Most of my few expeditions have been in areas others here know, but I could add notes on a few other places I've pottered around in playboats and the like in lesser detail for others to flesh out.

JIM

[Mike B]

The idea is excellent and the principle is sound - whether its possible to create "listing" similar to the manner in which the river guide is outlined is another matter entirely.

Fundamentally, the sea offers such a vast range of different situations and variety of launch points, routes and conditions, accordingly its going to be almost impossible to produce a "guide" in the same format.

But Jim touches upon some relevant points - tides and landings. Others have mentioned pubs and shops. All these things are very relevant to a sea paddler, as is that "informed" knowledge that a particular place has a nasty race at given tide states, but that in other conditions is fine.

I've planned my own trips based on the knowlege gleaned here, elsewhere and from conversations with people in pubs. Maybe I'm excessivly cautious, but I do want to know whether a particular coast is problematic for camping or whether I'll be able to get round that headland. Its also good to know that I should be able to get water at "x" and that "y" is a bugger to get out of at low tide.

Yes, I know about charts (now) but even now I also want to have the insight of others who have been there. Perhaps that makes me less of an adventurer than I might be, but so be it. There is also a time and a place for exploration and if I feel in that mood, then I'll just ignore the guide!

Lets use the existing generalised trip format, but with a formalised template to allow inclusion of things like good launch spots, tides, watering holes (H2o / alcoholic variety), shops, good camp sites etc.

As to the techy stuff, I'm all in favour of that! If we end up with a practical resource for boat design, kit selection, safety kit and techniques and deabte on environmental issues like differing views on the ethics of burning tyres or disposing of our waste, then we've achieved something valuable.

The down side of course is that by publishing the material about places to paddle and such like we also run the risk of popularising those places we enjoy for their solitude. I guess the same argument applies to the rivers and I'm not advocating isolationism of any form, but it is perhaps worth considering.

Building a selection of trip reports into a guide does seem like a good idea, bu it does seem to me that there is a need for some editoral work - many people will have "done" broadly the same trip/area and gathering and editing their experiences will be a bit of a challenge. More so than with river trips.

The Garvellachs are an example. The objective is the same for most people. But the ways of getting there are varied. Thro the Dog or the Corrie? From Crinan (no!), Cragnish area, Croabh Haven, wherever.

Jim's Summer Isles trip, with its various starting points is another one. But its exactly that info that interests me. THe detail of the beaches is very useful, and has already helped me in deciding NOT to go there with the double, if we were "on our own" (clearly the rock gardens are inpractical to cross with a loaded Aleut, even with a trolley!!!)

Lets go for it.

Mike.

[Jim]

" The down side of course is that by publishing the material about places to paddle and such like we also run the risk of popularising those places we enjoy for their solitude. I guess the same argument applies to the rivers and I'm not advocating isolationism of any form, but it is perhaps worth considering."

See Cameron McNeish's views on honeypot syndrome. I think Mark and most of the rest of us beleive that the guidebook helps alleviate honeypot syndrome by offering choice. Last year we stayed at Acairseid Mor on Rona, one of our group thought this was some kind of secret spot, but the current inhabitants of the cottage he'd bivvied in 20 years earlier (when it was derelict) told us that the anchorage gets chock a block with yachts in the summer (it's in the pilot of course) so perhaps we are all kidding ourselves about such "secret spots" anyway??

"(clearly the rock gardens are inpractical to cross with a loaded Aleut, even with a trolley!!!)"

Well to start with we began by completely unloading the singles, so you aren't really at much disadvantage there! We later realised that the rocks were so smooth and greasy we could carefully slide our boats a fair way up before emptying them. Admittedly another 10 minutes on Priest island and we'd have all been waiting on the next tide.....

JIM

[MikeB]

"so perhaps we are all kidding ourselves about such "secret spots" anyway??"

Yes, maybe! I suspect Big Harbour being in the pilot and having fresh water etc has a lot to do with the loss of secrecy! When they put their pontoon in later this year it'll be even busier. Certainly the plans being talked about for Rona will bring a lot of people into what was a somewhat deserted area.

Comments re honeypots noted - agreed.

There ARE still secret places - I guess its up to the individual whether he chooses to divulge their location. After all, its a real shame when you discover that your own secret place is the same as someone elses!! :D

In the so-called wilderness areas off Vancouver Island, we saw and met more kayakers than you would if you were paddling off the West Coast of Scotland. Says something really.

Mike.

[Mark R]

Maybe I'm being presumptive. Are there any UK sea paddling sites beyond Craig's (BCU sea touring site) and commercial sites?


-----------Mark Rainsley

[chris]

There's this: www.sesk.btinternet.co.uk/

[Mike B]

www.nwsk.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

www.stornowaycanoes.org.uk/Index.html

www.irishseakayakingassociation.com/

[Richard Seaby]

Hi Mark

I think we should just set it up and see what happens. I think all the tecky, trip reports, gear reviews would be fairly simple. Maybe just a if we are dealing with individual trips we could have a simple list at the end giving the technical details and useful info?

I am away for the rest of the week now - but I am happy to have a go when I get back.

Keep the suggestions coming!

R

[Jonathan Theobald]

Plymouth cc www.ppca-canoe-club.org.uk/ and Penzance cc www.pzcc.net/Frameset.htm both have lively sites.

Penzance has an impressively comfortable clubhouse that has a bar and views of both harbour and coastline.

[Steve B]

Presumably such a community would be concerned with what we conventionally regard as "sea kayaking", which doesn't of course include kayak surfing. Would you suggest moving any surfing discussion back into the ww pages? Or would we be better to have a separate discussion group? I know there has never been a lot of surf discussion and of course no guides, but most of us who live within reasonable driving distance of a break take our ww boats and ww skills onto the 'sea' now and then. I've always thought the spiritual home of kayak surfing was closer to ww than sea but no doubt some will disagree.

Steve B.

[PaulC]

Hi

and er mainly Scottish sea and open touring at www.scot-canoe.org/touring :)

PS Latest hot pic at www.scot-canoe.org/touring/reports.htm

Paul (pants weather again this weekend by the looks of it.....good time to do exams Mike!)

[MikeB]

What pics are these then? (As he tries to avoid revision - - - - )

Mike.