Does this question belong here?

[Steve B]

I feel a philosophical moment coming on...

We've had a couple of surf-related threads in the 'Sea' section, and while it's of no real consequence and certainly not 'off-topic', I don't tend to associate surfing with 'sea paddling'. To me it has much more in common with white water and playboating, it just happens to take place on what is ok technically the sea. What do real sea paddlers think? Do you claim surfing as part of your discipline?

Steve B.

[Mark R]

I have no idea what you're quibbling about, Steve. This forum is clearly marked, 'sea and surf'.

;-)


-----------Mark Rainsley

[Mike Buckley]

Damn cheek of the fella! The memsahib is most displeased y' know! These "surf" chappies have nothing to do with sea-paddling, don't y' know.

The fact that "surf" is usually created on that liquid medium known as 'the sea' doesn't make the person who plays in one of those tiny , short, plastic things into a "sea paddler".

Sea paddlers are serious, grizzled, bearded (usually) and frequently pickled (sometimes in salt - sometimes in somethign else ;) ). Sea paddlers are capable of sustained exertion, often over several hours. They can be quite good at paddling a sea-boat as well.

A sea-boat is elegant, sleek, beautifully formed and designed to be at one with its natural element for long periods while carrying its paddler and sufficient supplies for an extended sojurn on the briny with intermediate stops on secluded yet romantic isles.

A sea-boat comes from a long and proud pedigree of such paddling craft, oft dating back to pre-history.

A surf boat doesn't do or have ANY of these attributes!

Surf dialogues should rest within "Rivers / surf". Or, as a new topic.

There are such things as TRADITION you know! Damn cheek. IN my day, whippersnappers like that would have been horsewhipped and sent to the colonies. If we still had national service there'd be none of this balderdash, mark my words!

I remain, Sir, Your obedient servant, Major Charles Smitthers - DSO, VD, PraT (Hons). (Ret'd).

[Mark R]

Mike, you're a snob! The right surfing on the right day has an aesthetic quality that even sea paddling can only aspire to...


-----------Mark Rainsley

[Jim]

Mike wittered about sea paddlers being capable of sustained exertion over several hours, crikey man, have you never surfed? moderate to big surf requires more stamina than any other form of canoeing I've tried (actually Polo tournaments and white water races take a lot too).

Surfing is also an essential but often overlooked training activity for the bearded pickled sea paddler, sooner or later he will get caught out and have to land his 17 foot (and the rest) craft through the surf, if he's* going to avoid breaking it he's going to have to have some surf experience.

JIM

* Female sea paddlers probably don't need to practice, the surf wouldn't dare wreck their boats...

[Mike Buckley]

Ok, ok - point taken. Surfing a sea boat is fun and yes, I'd accept that it's an essential skill.

However, I would contend that the arts of surfing and of sea-kayaking are two distinct disciplines.

That a sea kayak can be surfed does not make a surf kayak into a craft suitable for undertaking a sea trip and that is the important distinction.

So, surfing really needs to have its own dedicated board. IMHO anyway.

Mike.

[Craig Addison]

Problem is, that whenever things are sectioned into groups, some will agree & some won't, we could go on forever creating seperate groups, does the inland need more groups,eg. freestyle, river running, playboating, slalom etc. IMO the sections are about right, inland for everything inland (rivers), & sea for....hmmm....lets see, oh yeah, sea! this will of course include surf kayaking/skis, the two groups will from time to time carry items that should maybe be in the other, but is of interest to both, & this is inevitable.
How many hedings do we want? & how many are we going to check? One or two is probably ideal, there are not to many posts to trawl through to find anything that you are interested in, & anyway surf is on the sea.

Craig.

[Chas C]

Craig wrote "anyway surf is on the Sea",

but only when its not an a river :rollin

Chas

[Craig Addison]

And especially when it's not in the washing machine!! :lol

Craig.

P.S. are you getting a long pointy one for christmas this year Chas? I know how disappointed you were last year when Santa failed to deliver.

[Chas C]

P.S. are you getting a long pointy one for christmas this year Chas? I know how disappointed you were last year when Santa failed to deliver.

In complete confidence Craig (keep this to yourself) I have to tell you I sat in one this summer at Scout Camp for about 5 mins, in the sea, scraped my shins, got wet, leaned the wrong way, landed on shingle.

I think I might stick to nice short boats until my body gives in for good.

Chas

[Mike Buckley]

The opinion was expressed that "the sections are about right, inland for everything inland (rivers), & sea for....hmmm....lets see, oh yeah, sea! this will of course include surf kayaking/skis, the two groups will from time to time carry items that should maybe be in the other, but is of interest to both, & this is inevitable."

NO NO NO - harmony and mutual co-operation are unthinkable. We must do everything possible to divide the various strands of our sport.

How about Play (rivers/surf/waterfalls) and Serious (sea paddling, with beards, loaded GPS and extra salt)?

[dave miller]

All sea kayakers should learn to be at least competent surfers. I can't understand why surf is not part of sea kayak awards any more.
Not all surfers are sea kayakers, the difference is more to do with attitude and intent than boat.

I suggest discussion categories would more usefully be:
- play & surf
- touring

Touring is about travelling through the environment, type of boat or water makes little difference. People tour on grades 0 to 6, canals, WW & sea.
Personally, I tour on all types of water, I also play on WW & surf. The difference is what I decide my priorities are for that day, and the right boat is the one that suits that purpose best.

The whole beardie thing is total cr*p. Narrow minded beardies are no worse than narrow minded playboaters.
There's a world of difference between specialising in one discipline and closing one's mind to everything else.

[Mike Buckley]

<the whole beardie thing is total crap> hmmm - how does that stack with your assertion about open minds?

Still, I suppose that it's an opinion.

The concept of touring/play is indeed a useful distinction however.

Mike.

[Jim]

I'm wondering if this comic debate has spiralled beyond comedy on account of my forgetting to stick any smilies in my last post?

Anyway, back to the point, and remember not to take it too seriously:

Surf is part of the sea and surfing is a part of sea paddling, in much the same way as park and play is a part of river paddling, they aren't the whole and those who concentrate on them cannot necessarily do the rest but surely it isn't reason enough to fragment ourselves further?

Personally I'm a beardie river runner who happens to prefer a playboat (which I don't fit in and I'm too heavy for) for that. I don't mind the odd park and play session, although I'm crap it these days (oh how I long for the days when spuds were proper playboats and 3 point cartwheels were good), I sometimes lark around in the surf and I've been known to slog around the coast in a geet big pointy thing. I've also messed about with open canoes, decked canoes, white water racers and slalom boats and probably some other types of canoe and kayak I've forgotten - think how many pieces I would need to be shattered into if I had to have a different fragment for each!

Anyway, lets think about what surfers and sea kayakers have in common and why they shouild stick together:
Both prefer composite boats
Both prefer the denser briny water, in which their kayaks draw less than in that thin fresh crap
Both can read tide tables
Both smell of seaweed and fish
Both think that tap water tastes funny
Both think that bottled water tastes funny
Both think that rivers taste and smell funny
Both are covered in guano
Both have consideraby more weather sense than other kayakers!

The last one is the biggy I reckon! How many river kayakers know any more about the weather than how to watch the TV forecast or look at a website? A few maybe, but how many study the forecasts and charts and determine how the pressure systems are likely to move and what the effect on wind and swell is going to be? Probably only those who do a reasonable amount of sea paddling (surf or touring) as well.

There's plenty in common and after all the section is called Sea and Surf (and always was, honest) ;-)

JIM

[Mark R]

At risk of letting this thread go around in a few more circles, here is my reasoning behind creating the two categories...

There was originally just one forum. I had no intention of adding multiple forums (see www.unsponsored.co.uk/cgi...nboard.cgi for an example of this gone utterly mad).

But...I do have a personal love for sea paddling...I recalled from uk.rec that sea paddlers were often drowned out (those were the days...) by the volume of posts from other disciplines. With this in mind, I put the 'sea' forum there just to offer an opportunity for sea paddlers to 'locate' each other. Craig Addison (runs the BCU sea website, is Sea Committee Secretary) is also a moderator of this. The original idea was that if it took off, Craig might want to take it elsewhere to a more 'sea paddling' website...most likely his BCU site I suppose.

As for adding surf...I guess that I was just being obtuse.

;-)

Has this sea board been a success? I would like to think it has got some folk out paddling together. Some good information has appeared, but there are not too many contributors - relative to the number of sea paddlers.

Any thoughts on how it might be improved? Would it be more effective anywhere else? Any suggestions welcome.


-----------Mark Rainsley

[Craig Addison]

The subject of a bulletin board for the BCU sea site has been talked about over the last few days, and my thoughts are this, that the sea section is working as well as it probably will, and with it being part of the guidebook community, it is a useful resource for all paddlers, if it were to be moved then I guess we would loose a few contibutors, as it would be another site/board to keep an eye on, not so easy as just picking the sections from a list, I read both sections & (probably selfishly) would be loathe to move the sea section, as it would mean another board to keep an eye on. There are other sea kayaking message boards around, that attract other sea paddlers, ideally one board would be much more useful than the ones that are around at the moment, there just aren't enough sea paddlers to fill all of them.
I know many river paddlers that also paddle in the sea, so at present, we have a one-stop place for most paddlers.

Craig.

[dave miller]

Mike, my reasoning is that as soon as people categorise others into beardies, grommets, barge paddlers, slalomists, goat boaters etc have already labelled them and assigned attributes. It is a great way of quickly deciding they are lesser people

I suggest one category - paddlers.
And yes, it is only an opinion.
(This is not aimed at you Mike, just discussion, 'cos it's important if our sport is to survive).

[Steve B]

Mark wrote: "As for adding surf...I guess that I was just being obtuse."

Well it made me laugh out loud when I saw what you'd done, not an easy thing to do on a Monday morning.

Do you know that my tongue-in-cheek question started what is already the seventh longest thread in the Sea [and Surf] section? (If you'll allow me to use the type of statistic much loved by weather men - I actually heard 'driest since 1998' a few days ago!)

Steve B

[Jim]

Of course the board is a success, it gets used, even in quiet periods it seems rarely more than 4 or 5 days between posts (Mark could make real stats I suppose).

As for not having too many boards, good idea what you have is just about right. Some breakdown is required so the sea paddlers can find the relevant messages. The only other board that may be of use is a canoeing board - it strikes me that the canoeists didn't follow from uk.r.b.p and aren't using it anymore either, maybe an experimental canoeing board would be useful - does the moderator ever canoe?

As for the old inland board, I guess it's useful to look back through for information but is there a better way of archiving it?

I didn't check the link of the bad example of multiple forums, I've come accross plenty in my time and totally agree with mark, simple is better!

JIM

[Mike Buckley]

As it happens, on one level, a little bit of me does actually like the bearded, macho, sea-gull eating image of sea-paddling - I can apply a similar process to my river paddling.

The reality of course is that sea paddling and river paddling are only parts of paddle-sport generally so, despite the interprepations put on what I've said, I'm really not into any real form of sectarianism in paddling.

However, when in sea-paddling mode I may well choose to have a little fun - the difficulty of course is when remarks made in jest are then interpreted as being serious. I might change to river-paddling mode and have some fun there too. Probably at the expense of open canoeists.

But if we take this concept to its logical conclusion, this site, by its very name and original purpose, IS NOT intended as a paddling resource for the entire paddling community. It IS a site for people who want to paddle rivers, be it touring rivers or big, scary, I'm-going-to-die rivers. It is called the UKRiversGuidbook after all! Although I also note that there are trip reports on all sorts of places not in UK.

That it has evolved over time is probably a tribute to the open-minded and intelligent application of the resource in a way which is inclusive of most branches of the sport. Although I see remarkably little evidence of any involvement of the polo brigade or perhaps the marathon paddlers.

That isn't a criticism, it's a measured reflection flowing from the debate so far. The site is aimed not at paddlesport generally, but at people who want to paddle rivers, go touring on lochs, lakes and sea and who also play in surf boats. At least, that is my perception of it and it could be a mis-perception. Yes, I know that there are reports on open-boating and indeed other varieties as well.

On a purely personal note, I question whether there is a need for a sea-paddling board as an independant entity and I really wonder whether it would get the traffic it would need. That might be because of the nature of sea-paddlers, the number of them, a whole range of reasons.

As to whether sea and surf should be on the same board here, I would suggest that the question is really meaningless. That we have ended up with one of the largest and most active debates in some time is however very interesting.

What would be very worrying would be a situation where there was a real and objective opposition rather than an open-minded discussion. There is nothing quite as annoying as total intrangisance and the refusal to accept that another's opinion is that to which s/he is entitled. In the same way that I retain the right to either disagree or, if I feel the need, to express my disagreement.

I have my personal view. Others may have theirs.

[Mike Buckley]

Another little thought! I doubt whether the number of people posting here is in any way representaitve of paddlesport generally - it's probably more indicative of a relativly limited number of people who enjoy using this medium to interact with like-minded people.

I suspect that a great many people don't actually want to get involved in a debate or indeed don't feel that they can contribute anything. It doesn't make their potential input any the less useful, it just isn't something they want to do.

The same happens in a pub conversation. And on other boards. Take a look at the SCA board if you want an example. Considering that it represents a closed group of paddlers in a specific geographich area, it's hardly used at all.

Maybe some people would rather go paddling and some would rather talk about going paddling? Some do both - perhaps.

Mike.

[Sue]

FWIW :) ......... I think the Sea and Surf combination is fine, I would not want any more splits, as two boards is plenty to look at. I read (most of) both Inland and Sea and Surf as I paddle in both categories, am also an open-canoeist and I have not got a beard, and refuse to grow or wear a glue-on one!

Sue

[Mike Buckley]

As a lady paddler, what's your view on the other interesting thread regarding the development of sea-kayaking?

Mike.