Rolling for real - discuss^

[geyrfugl]

"Most sea kayakers don't capsize"

Yeah, when I started sea kayaking that was the advice I got. Second
time out, I got backlooped. The tide was rising, the water in the
entrance to Amble harbour was getting deeper, and whilst every
second or third wave had been breaking when we started out, by the
time we'd played inside enough to be happy going out to Coquet
Island, we hadn't seen a wave break for half an hour. But out there
was a crossed swell - two sets of swells coming from different
directions. So sometimes two waves would add up to one big wave.
One of those came at me just as I passed the harbour entrance, and reared up to break right at my bow. Possibly if I'd known then what I
know now, I could have punched through it, but as it was I backsurfed,
buried the stern, cleopatra's needled and got a close view of the sea
bed... and swam. This was not a good location for a rescue, so I really
wished I'd been competent enough and orientated enough to have
rolled.

I've been backlooped again by a similarly "bigger than all the others"
wave, off Little Colonsay. That time my stern hit the reef (and lost an
inch off the boat), I was ejected from the cockpit, snapping the backrest.
A roll would NOT have helped.

I like to play in rock gardens and swell. Off St. Bees I caught the keel
on a rock as I was being swept sideways by a wave. A support stroke
saved me. But the second time, two minutes later, it didn't. This was
another very silly place for a rescue, so I made very sure my roll
counted. I should also have been wearing a helmet for this sort of
play - an often neglected precaution.

Whether you need a roll is somewhat a function not only of where (and
in what conditions) you paddle, but also of whom you paddle with. If they
are all much better than you, will never capsize and are happy to do a
rescue in the sorts of places you may capsize, a roll may not be so
essential. But if you are in their position and are out with people who
may capsize, you may need to go places you wouldn't choose to, in
order to get them out of trouble. Rule one of rescues is "don't get
dead yourself", so a bombproof roll is essential.

Learning to roll in a pool: good idea - but be aware that most pool
sessions don't use buoyancy aids. Rolling without one is different
than rolling with one, so always move onto rolling with one before
moving to "real life" rolls.

Upper body strength: you need that for all-day forward paddling, You
should NOT need it for a roll. It's all in the trunk and hips, the paddle
should evolve towards being more of a timing aid than a support. If
you think that sounds unlikely, go to the Qajaq USA site and look at
the video clips of some of the Greenland competition rolls. The
"Straight jacket roll" may need a specially designed low-volume
rolling boat, but you can see from it how much the body does a lot of
the work. It's fun to learn a lot of the Greenland rolls because they
mean you can roll quickly in a lot of odd situations without taking a
lot of time to set up in the familiar position.

One thing the Plas-y-Brenin course taught me was how, if you have had
the paddle ripped from your grip, you can lay back, get half your split
paddle off the aft deck and reverse screw roll up with that. Didn't tell
me what the hell to do next, however :-)

Andy

[Ceegee]

geyrfugl wrote:

get half your split
paddle off the aft deck and reverse screw roll up with that. Didn't tell
me what the hell to do next, however

Start kneeling and paddle C1 style of course ;0)

Jokes aside, I spent last weekend in the harbour playing with my home-made greenland paddle.

£20 for an 8' length of western red cedar 4x2 and a bottle of boiled linseed oil!

It REALLY makes a difference, I just FLEW up with extended and partially extended (i.e. about 3/4) rolls, it is almost impossible to get the blade attack angle wrong, and its SO buoyant, it makes its own way to the surface. My 8 yo, who did her 1 Star last year, did several balance braces lasting up to 20 seconds on the first attempt. Everyone should try one! My Lendal Archipelago's are going on the back deck!

[geyrfugl]

Damnation ! I capsized in flat water playing with my homemade GP and
I couldn't roll up for toffee with it. Couldn't balance brace with it, either.
I used about 20 coats of Tung oil in a distilled white spirit carrier, but
I can't imagine that makes my paddle that much heavier :-(

What boat are you playing in ? I'll have to have a go with the Anas, that
ought to be an even easier boat to balance brace in than my Cormorant..
and I should try my off-the-shelf bought Greenland Paddle which has
wider blades.

Mutter ... this is particularly irritating because I recommend people to
play with Greenland paddles when learning to roll. It was the first time
I'd used this one and I hadn't expected to capsize, so I probably didn't
try terribly hard..

Of the paddles below, all with some relationship to GPs, the bottom one
is a narrow bladed 45 degree europaddle, which I can roll with perfectly
well. The next up is an Aleut Paddle to the design in Wolfgang Brinck's
Baidarka book and is ***** useless. The next is a ridiculously expensive
(but very attractive) Feathercraft one with a carbon loom (for use as a
split). I find the high gloss finish on this far too slippery. The top one is
my own first GP. It was laminated out of two 5/8" Western Red Cedar
boards (I have a huge amount of this as reclaim from an old ceiling) with
thin lamina of African Padauk on the loom (the darker wood). It looks
beautiful, but I haven't got the hang of it yet...

Andy

[Owen]

"Most sea kayakers don't capsize"


One thing the Plas-y-Brenin course taught me was how, if you have had
the paddle ripped from your grip, you can lay back, get half your split
paddle off the aft deck and reverse screw roll up with that. Didn't tell
me what the hell to do next, however :-)

Andy

Its much easier if you carry your splits on the front deck (not that I ever do). I know a few paddlers who even put a T-handle on one half to make it easier.

Ceegee wrote

"almost impossible to get the blade angle wrong"

I find this with cranked paddles; just loosen your grip and the blade finds its own level.

[andreadawn]

Don't suppose any of you GP users have seen the Dubside Greenland rolling video have you? I'd like to spend a bit more time experimenting with my GP this year.

If I can get over yesterday that is. I thought I'd have a nice leisurely paddle on Ullswater with a bit of rolling practice in a secluded bay. I've done quite a bit of rolling over the winter and generally it's been going rather well (it's only taken me ten years to learn!).

Yesterday though, I got the cold water gasp reflex as soon as I hit the water, something that hasn't happened to me before. I felt like I'd inhaled half the water in the lake and then spent what felt like an eternity thrashing around upside down with no idea where the surface was or how to get out of the boat even. I got totally disorientated and when I finally found the spraydeck release strap spent ages trying to pull it directly backwards. Somehow it came off eventually and I bobbed to the surface where the world was busy spinning around in a rather nauseating way. The 20 metre swim to the shore was rather trying.

I guess it's good to find out once in a while how badly wrong things can go as long as you don't die in the process! Not an experience I wish to repeat. I spent the rest of the paddle back thinking about how much I could make by selling my boats and what I could do with the proceeds!

Andrea.

[Ceegee]

Oops - sorry Andy - maybe just luck???

For practicing static braces, I (but not my daughter) cheated a bit at first and stuffed some foam in the back pocket of my PFD.

Your paddles look great - mine is the same style as your home made one - single piece (WRC (- added a little teak armour to the tips). I went for 86" lenght and 3 1/2" blades, slightly squared tips.

I'll admit that bracing is actually HARDER than rolling - its all or nothing. And yes, it does slice if you paddle with an angled blade entry (as they say one is supposed to) and you feel you could pull yourself in that way - anyhow, early days.

In answer to your question (boat type) Nordkap Jubilee.

Andrea - try also Andrew Elizaga's blog for a great and inspirational rolling video.

http://dashpointpirate.typepad.com/the_dash_point_pirate_woo/2006/10/index.html

He also links to Dubside. Seems quite a SOF/GP clique in Washington State. I'm building an SOF at the moment and emailed Andrew for some advice, as I want to (learn to try and) do what he does with his boat. He obviously knows Chris Cunningham, whose book I'm using, and responded with some very useful tips same day - very friendly!

Cheers

Steve

[Geoff Seddon]

That's not limited to cranked shafts Owen, most people overgrip and as a result loose the feedback from their paddle. Try sculling without gripping the loom at all, ie. cup the shaft in your top hand and push/pull with an open bottom hand. The angle at which you push on the shaft determines the blade angle in the water. This works even with shovels, but the better the paddle the less twitchy the stroke.

[chriscw]

Bonnie

Knowing you and your boat I would recommend that you follow the suggestion of learning in a pool. Whoever is training you will have their own way of doing it but the main thing I wanted to say is that a variant of the pawlatta is certainly what you should ask to be taught. It is very easy to set up for under water, reliable to do and DOES teach you good rolling technique. Its main drawback is that it takes a fraction longer and a bit more space so its not suitable for most white water situations. For rolling a touring boat on a canal, slow deep river or on the sea though it is a good roll and you will be able to do it.

I normally teach people to sweep out when doing it which really gets you doing the hip flick thing without thinking about it. If any roll feels like hard work for your arms you are probably not doing it right.

Rolling is normally progressive and you will probably start with hip flick practice on the bars at the pool, followed by capsizing and reaching for a paddle held by a training partner and learning the Eskimo rescue followed by a trainer guiding your paddle as you roll and finally rolling on your own with a training partner standing by to right your boat in the event that you fail so that you do not spend to much time practicing tipping water into a swimming pool from your boat and trying to pretend that all the leaves, frogs, mud and bird's nests are not from your boat!

Good luck and let me know if you need help I should be paddling again as soon as I've finished rebuilding my shower room.

[Kayak-Bloke]

I spent my first 8 years paddling just touring and Sea Kayaking. I never once capsized by accident.

Later when I branched out into running rivers and surfing in a playboat I really struggled to get to grips with learning to roll. It was so ingrained in me just pull the deck off if I capsized!

Glad to say my roll is fine now.
Learning to roll (and later hand rolling) helps reinforce lots of the skills needed to stay upright in the first place!

Better to have a roll and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Remember it's not just a fancy skill. It's self rescue. No need to swim. You're safer and it's safer for those that are with you as they don't have to rescue you.
Plus let's face it emptying your boat soon loses its charm.

I'd recommend that anyone who picks up a paddle learns to roll early on. Later when your going through techniques such as sculling, edging, bracing etc if you push it too far then you just roll up and start over. Not swimming means more boat time and more time learning!

Hope this helps.

[CaptainSensible]

I capsized when I went out yesterday. I'm not sure if it qualfies as an accident or not; I was seeing how far I could edge the boat...

Anyway, I had to bail out and walk the boat ashore (Hallelujah) = outing over (I lost a [cheap] pair of specs too = sorting out some contacts today). I had the beginnings of a cold yesterday morning, and I don't think yesterday afternoon's antics have helped.

Had I been farther out (swimming depth instead of chest/walking depth), I would have been in deep doo doo. The water would have been colder too, which is why I wasn't farther out. I have no intention of getting out of my depth until I have perfected a roll. I guess this only applies to people who go sea kayaking on their own though.

[Kayak-Bloke]

Captain,
I refer you to my post (just above yours).

If you crack a basic roll on flat water you can practice edge control and leans and if you get all carried away...

Beats those miserable trudges back that's for sure.

[Owen]

Captain,

Isn't there someone you could go out with?

It really frighten's me how many novices (from your last few posts I think you are a novice) are going out solo. If you can't roll you wont be able to do a re-entry and roll either. Other kinds of self rescue are harder to do especially in rough water.
By far the easist way to get back in after a capsize is to do a T-rescue, they are dead easy to do but do require someone else to help; and a bit of practice.