CKUK vs OP

[Mark R]

I've just spent bathtime perusing the latest issue of two mags...Ocean Paddler and Canoe Kayak UK. CKUK is not a specialist 'sea' publication, but has a sea kayaking supplement this month (I think they do this annually??) as well as (illogically?) various sea additional paddling articles and features in the main mag.

Somewhat surprisingly, CKUK wins almost hands down, to my mind at least.

I won't go into 'why' I think this right away, but would recommend paddlers to take a look at both this month and see what they think...?

[wideblueyonder]

I've got both, read both and really enjoyed both. Does one of them have to 'win'???

I just enjoy having two good magazines available - one multi discipline, the other more specific.

Duncan

NB: Full disclosure etc etc - I do write for OP most issues.

[Mark R]

Does one of them have to 'win'???

I'll rephrase my observation; one does a markedly superior job of representing and promoting our sport, and making it interesting/ entertaining/ accessible in the process.

Like I say, I'll be interested to see what others think.

[OwenBurson]

Afternoon Mark,

I think you should rephrase it again though as 'you think' one does a markedly superior job. It is a matter of opinion, and not a statement of fact.

Have a good day, I'm going back on the water after warming up inside for a bit.

[Mark R]

It is a matter of opinion, and not a statement of fact.

Absolutely...so based on this month's offerings, what do you think?

[PeterG]

I like Adventure Kayak. http://www.adventurekayakmag.com/adventurekayakmag_spring12/ PIck of the current issue is the final phrases on page 27, and not the running out of coffee!

[TechnoEngineer]

Too often I've picked up a copy of CKUK in a shop, saw what looked like an interesting article, only to read it properly at home and find that it's just two pages of superficially stating the obvious. The only thing that stands out for me in CKUK was a group test on throwlines they did a while back.

OP always wins for me, even if it's just one article from Jeff Allen that makes it worth having.

That said I'll pick up a copy of the latest CKUK and see what I think.....

[OwenBurson]

It is a matter of opinion, and not a statement of fact.

Absolutely...so based on this month's offerings, what do you think?

What do I think? Well, first, I'm not really a magazine person, but I always buy OP from whatever canoe shop I happen to in when it comes out or I buy the digital copy. I always have a quick flick though C&K if I can, but very quickly put it back in the rack, because I feel that with that quick flick through I've read it.

I haven't seen this months C&K, but it's supplement, that I think you were talking about, would have to be a monumental leap forward in depth of insightful content that I doubt it would compare with Douglas Wilcocks' Loch Fyne article, I've been there many times and it has made me want to go back to enjoy it again; I didn't agree with everything in Nick's article on posture and connectivity and felt that in some place he placed emphasis in the wrong places, but I guarantee that one of his aims of the article was to get the reader to question and challenge what he was writing and think about it applied to them, and it certainly made me do that. Phil's article on turning was interesting to see some else explaining the concept and again made me think. Having lived and worked in Pembrokeshire for quite a while many years ago, obviously Martin's guide was enjoyable as was the article on sea food. Nigel's search and rescue insight was very useful.

I will make sure I take a look at C&K as soon as I can to see what fantastic sea kayak specific content they came up with that could possible counter OP this month. It is not a sea kayak magazine and I don't think it has ever tried to be so why compare a general magazine to a discipline specific publication.

What I find odd though Mark, is why you felt the need to make such a statement, worded in such a way, in the first place.

[Mark R]

I will make sure I take a look at C&K as soon as I can to see what fantastic sea kayak specific content they came up with that could possible counter OP this month. It is not a sea kayak magazine and I don't think it has ever tried to be so why compare a general magazine to a discipline specific publication.

That's specifically what surprised me; given that it isn't intended as such, I thought it did a rather good job this month. It's a very different - I would argue more inclusive, accessible - approach to OP's, and much less technique/ coach focussed. But I preferred it.

What I find odd though Mark, is why you felt the need to make such a statement, worded in such a way, in the first place.

As I said, interested to hear what others think. This is something which has always interested me, and I've always tried to put my money where my mouth is and contribute positively to print media.

It's a personal interest because I like reading, because I like writing (which is also an occasional source of income) and mostly, because I think the print media has a massive potential role to play in our sport, one which arguably is underplayed in the media currently. It's a key part of the public image of sea paddling, a key means by which a significant proportion of paddlers get into it (or get put off?) and a key to motivating/ inspiring others. I think we're missing a trick right now, both mags have limitations and could do better - CKUK is editted by active paddlers (albiet infrequent sea paddlers) and is (I feel) doing a better and better job of making sea paddling seem accessible and fun, OP is of course firmly aimed at coaches/ diehards/ purists, has articles from some impressively credentialled folk and looks lovely...yet I oddly find it difficult to actually read or get into, even being quite keen on sea paddling as I am. That's my view but mainly, I was hoping to gauge the feelings of others about our sea kayaking print media.

This is - I guess - to some extent a discussion of what our sport is about and who it's for.

[No Kayak]

Print media is sadly a dying form of influence on pretty much everything. Looking into the future, a magazine such as OP (as beautifully presented as it is), stands far more chance of being a successful online publication than it will a hard copy, coffee table tome. In the UK, the same could be said for Sea Kayaker or any other specialist media.

If you're trying to bring new people into the hobby, think about the demographics...

The traditional Sea Kayaking audience is an older one, that is more likely to revert to traditional print media, such as magazines. The younger audience you perhaps should be trying to attract inwards, is becoming more and more inclined towards digital media (from magazine type content through to investigating potential purchases). There's a danger in pandering too much to the existing market, who probably already have the gear and established loyalties, at the expense of encouraging incoming paddlers from a new and younger demographic.

For traditional print media outlets, it's a tough position, at the moment. The investment should really be towards the digital end of the business, driving content and traffic delivery. The downside to this, is the better the digital side does, the more it has a direct and negative impact on the viability of the print one.

From the perspective of this forum, I do wonder why Mark doesn't set it up to drive more traffic (than it does already), grow the content and content turnover and try to really monetise it? As long as doing so does not impinge on the enjoyment of the consumers using the site, I don't see anything wrong in making a this one a revenue earning hub for all things paddling?

Could UKRGB be better than CKUK and OP, is the question!

[Mark R]

I don't see anything wrong in making a this one a revenue earning hub for all things paddling?

There are most certainly no plans for this*. All we've ever considered is how to cover the (significant) financial loss already made by running the site, and there is currently no plan as to how to achieve this. But this is a separate discussion.


*Although there may be some confusion/ misinformation about this. When I paddled in the Kayakathon last year, several different high profile sea paddlers whom I had not previously met, seperately asked me how much I was making from UKRGB. They seemed to assume it was some kind of business.

[pugwash]

Print media is sadly a dying form of influence on pretty much everything.

Not sure I'd agree with that, print media are still making lots of money for their owners, the issue is that they arn't growing any more, which can upset the financial director. The thing about print is that it can fulfil that unarticulated need, ie I can read about kayaking in Jersey, not knowing that I need to go there, but after reading the feature I go off to the island and have a nice paddle. The old electic interweb still can't really do that. The other problem with the internet is that it isn't edited, so much of what's out there is rubbish, and sometimes its difficult to tell which is which. Just my tuppenth worth, but after 30 years working in specialist magazines, and having seen many many balance sheets, people telling me they are dead tends to raise a wry laugh. C&K is great for newcomers, but would say that as I occasionally write for them!

[No Kayak]

I certainly didn't say they were dead, but they were dying. I also didn't say that was for the better. ;)

[Adrian Cooper]

impressively credentialled folk

Not only a writer but a logodaedalus to boot. :-)

[Mark R]

An internet search has completely failed in helping me to understand what that word means...something to do with Cretean mythology???

[TechnoEngineer]

logodaedalus Someone who is cunning. ingenious, or intricate in the use of words. This term is related to Daedalus, the Athenian artificer of Greek mythology ...

[Adrian Cooper]

Logo = word
Daedalus = artificer (maker of stuff)

Daedalus was Icarus's father who made the wings for him. He also made a wooden cow suit for Pasiphae so that she could copulate with a bull (she was cursed by Poseidon)

I always like to think of the word as meaning someone who makes up words but I think it is supposed to be a bit more subtle than that.

Sorry, I am boring you all.

[liquidusblue]

Thanks Adrian, not boring. I've got a book at work which I write words into in order to try and get them into technical reports in future! Words like discombobulate & capricious. I can see logodaedalus as being a challenge!

Other than National Geographic I don't tend to buy any magazines. I Tend to get most of my info from the web or peoples blogs. Age wise (27) I think that I fit into that funny demographic which is too old for radio 1 but too young for radio 2.

That said I have taken glances to just to see what's around. I think some of the OP articles that I have read have that timeless quality to them that National Georaphic does. Although OP articles to me are for people who already sea kayak. Although it only takes a glance at one of the pictures in the magazine to be inspired and think WANT.TO.GO and be hooked! which was me about 2 years ago on a beginners sea kayaking course at SKC.

M

[TechnoEngineer]

Martin - Radio 4 FTW......;)

[Jim]

Thanks Adrian, not boring. I've got a book at work which I write words into in order to try and get them into technical reports in future! Words like discombobulate & capricious. I can see logodaedalus as being a challenge!

My boss was trying to get us to challenge him with a new word every week, it didn't exactly catch on, 'Perturbation' has been on the white board for at least a year now......

[Strad]

Words like discombobulate & capricious. I can see logodaedalus as being a challenge!

M

awesome word, we used to have a similar idea at the motorbike club I went to we would have a word of the week that we had to use as much as possible through each week. Discombobulate was one of them, I also liked ramfeezled and perturbated...

[liquidusblue]

heh! seems like kayakers are amused over similar silly things!

However I'll stop being rambunctious now and stop hijacking the thread as I'm starting my perigrination to studland sea school in a minute.

M

[Douglas Wilcox]

Owen, thank you very much for your very kind comments about the Loch Fyne article.

Comparing OP with CKUK is tricky as the two magazines are directed at different readerships and so the same article in both magazines might get a different response in each.

I have fairly regularly written for OP and I have also written for CKUK. What may surprise you is the amount of interaction that the editors have had with me before an article is written. For example Rich, the OP editor, wanted the last issue to appeal to a broad range of sea kayakers. My last couple of articles have been on St Kilda and the west coast of Islay which require relatively advanced paddling skills, so he asked me to balance some of the more advanced articles in this issue with something that would appeal to newcomers. I thought Loch Fyne would be a highly suitable area given its interesting geography, its relatively sheltered waters and its lack of exposure in the sea kayaking media.

We also discussed whether it should be a first person narrative or in guidebook style, like my recent St Kilda article. Rich felt it would be more appealing and more accessible to newcomers in narrative style. I am really pleased that an experienced sea kayaker like Owen was not put off by this approach or the subject matter.

I have read both magazines, I have written for both, it's great to have a choice.

Douglas

[Mark R]

Has anyone actually looked at the two latest editions, side by side? As I suggest, the comparison is interesting.

[Jim]

Has anyone actually looked at the two latest editions, side by side? As I suggest, the comparison is interesting.

Hmm, that would require me to purchase CKUK and unwrap OP.... I must find time to read magazines more instead of the internet!

[Adrian Cooper]

Thanks Adrian, not boring. I've got a book at work which I write words into in order to try and get them into technical reports in future! Words like discombobulate & capricious. I can see logodaedalus as being a challenge!

My boss was trying to get us to challenge him with a new word every week, it didn't exactly catch on, 'Perturbation' has been on the white board for at least a year now......

We did this as kids, likewise it didn't last long. Two memorable ones were 'lacrimose' and 'moribund'

[ThePaddler]

Interesting post. After 20 years of paper magazine publishing, I have just published my first totally digital online canoe/kayak mag called thepaddler.co.uk magazine - I would be interested to know what you paddlers think.

[Mark R]

I had to search through a lot of huge adverts to find the mag you are talking about - this is the correct link...

http://issuu.com/thepaddler/docs/thepaddler_1

...and having had a quick peruse, it looks pretty good indeed. Enjoyed the article from Sea Kayak Cornwall...

[ThePaddler]

Good to see you found it Mark - issue 2 is out next Saturday and it's looking good. Will have an IOS6/Android version out by Christmas too.

[wideblueyonder]

Cracking online magazine. Really enjoyed reading through it. Looking forward to the next issue!