Valley, NDK, TRace, Rockpool, P&H- Strongest Lineup Overall?

[MarineMammal]

My folly comment was a response to your prejudice that there is such a thing as a 'true' sea kayak.

Then why say it like this?:

But to pretend they don't exist (and don't utterly dominate the market) is folly.

You seemed to be complaining more about me not giving SOTs the respect they're due due to their high sales. Obviously, that isn't the case.

Far as what is and is not a 'true sea kayak', well, 'right tool for the right job' and all that.

SOTs can do a lot, and I don't hate them. Their commercial success is deserved, and I think can be learned from a bit.

Nor do I think that a phony 'us vs them' mentality has to exist between SOTs and more traditional boats. IMO, SOTs can actually be a 'gateway drug' to other types of kayaks, and even vice-versa at times.

But realistically, can SOTs do absolutely everything as well as what the hardcore would consider a 'true' sea kayak? No, not really.
At least I've never heard anyone maintain such with a straight face.

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[MarineMammal]

For the record... We initially considered using the 'X' designation. The X-1 would be the fast boat series (inspired by the Bell X-1, some of this imagery lives on in the Pace18 logo), X-2 for the expedition boats, X-3 for the touring/day boats and X-4 for the play boats. The 'X' thing stuck, but the names became a little more descriptive.

Hi, Aled. I'm a fan. Keep up the great work. :)

And yes, you TR folk do seem to like rockets. I dig the little 'rocket exhaust coming out of the back of the kayak' graphic that helps describe speed on the spec sheets.

Far as the names go, yes, names like 'Xcape' do sound better/more evocative than 'X-2'. But there's nothing in the name that tells you it's an expedition-style boat for beginners. The site could make things like that a non-issue by explicitly stating such.

I hope I haven't offended anyone on this board (or Aled) by making said suggestions. Here in the US, ppl are fairly chirpy/unabashed about such things. In the UK, perhaps there's more of a 'don't tell the man how to run his business' -type sensibility. Even though Mr. Williams is a (terrific and amazing) boat designer, not a web designer.

(unless he is??)

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[MarineMammal]

As for derailed? Well, we're discussing who has the 'strongest line-up overall'.

If we're measuring that by market share/ volume sales/ popularity/ ubiquity, well...I've given you the definitive answer.

Sure, but it's an intentionally broad question. The two most obvious metrics, when discussing 'strongest line-up' :

1) Sales/popularity, i.e. 'the mass market/rec market'
2) How well said line-up meets the needs of the 'hardcore' sea kayaker

By metric #1, Ocean, as you say, probably wins. Though I wonder if Hobie gives them a run for their money.

By a blend of #1 and #2, P&H/Venture probably wins, though here in the US I guess you could make an argument for Wilderness Systems/Dagger/Perception, all owned by Confluence.

By metric #2 alone, well, that's an interesting and very debatable question.

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[bobt]

[quote][/quote]though here in the US I guess you could make an argument for Wilderness Systems/Dagger/Perception, all owned by Confluence.

Ahhh, so Wilderness Systems don't get sold in the UK?

Perhaps you could answer my question about how good they might be?

[MarineMammal]

Perhaps you could answer my question about how good [Wilderness Systems' boats] might be?

Check here... this page has a TON of user reviews on most of the Wilderness Systems boats, including the more 'recreation -type kayaks for the kids' you said you were interested in earlier:

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showKay ... l?manf=176

Perhaps also consider starting your own thread on your topic, so as to more fully answer your question and not sidetrack this discussion. Good luck.

[Graham T]

I too am a fan of Tiderace but also other marks of kayak, I am not sure what cetus, anas acuta, Nordkapp,Delphin, conjure in my mind however Xplore tells me to go take a journey to explore and Xcite did intimate to me this is for some fun exciting playtime, Pace well could be racy and oh yes I rather like my Xtreme even if I do not consider myself an Xtreme paddler I knew from the name what it is suppose to be capable of. The Xtreme makes a great day boat for me by the way, and I wonder if some overlook it because the name suggests otherwise.

[MarineMammal]

I too am a fan of Tiderace but also other marks of kayak, I am not sure what cetus, anas acuta, Nordkapp,Delphin, conjure in my mind...

That's sort of the point... they don't have to conjure anything, because of the site. Go to P&H's site. The Cetus is right there under the 'Expedition' category, and the various flavors of Delphin are all right there under the 'Play the Sea' category. It's partway explained before you even look at the boat (though the description is missing for the Cetus HV).

Meanwhile, Valley's site, which, while having its definite shortcomings and errors (2250 lb Aquanaut LVs?!), does mostly seem to have longer and more helpful write-ups immediately accompanying each kayak. On the whole, they spell it out a bit better up front.

...however Xplore tells me to go take a journey to explore and Xcite did intimate to me this is for some fun exciting playtime, Pace well could be racy and oh yes I rather like my Xtreme even if I do not consider myself an Xtreme paddler I knew from the name what it is suppose to be capable of. The Xtreme makes a great day boat for me by the way, and I wonder if some overlook it because the name suggests otherwise.

Fair enough. But what's the name Xtra imply? Xcape? From the name alone, what kind of boats are those? Who are they for?

But again, the name alone isn't so much the issue... and those are cool names. It's that if the name isn't a explainer or differentiator, then the site should be, yet said site doesn't always explain too well who and what the boat's for, and what's different between models.

Both the Xcape and Xplore are expedition-style boats. One's more for folks newer to paddling, the other's aimed more towards the intermediate/experienced paddler. How's the average person supposed to know that? The Xtra and Xtreme are both play boats. What's different between them? How would the average person know it?

I guess if one assumes that Tideraces are only for ppl who know a lot about boat specs or who at least read the magazines a lot, it all makes sense. But I think there's ppl with money to spend who don't necessarily know a ton about boats, and "the dealer will explain it all to you" argument only works if said customer hasn't already cut you out of their short list based on what they know or think they know from online information.

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[Graham T]

Sorry I thought you had a problem with the names not being descriptive. I know a bit about boats but more importantly what I may be looking for. Once I know that what it is I want I look around read all the bumph available and then speak to the people who should know. In this case Dan (Tiderace) suggested one of this years designs (forget the name) and based on spec alone (wider/shorter from memory) I did not even wait to try . There are likely several kayaks to which would fit any bill in the end you pays your money and makes your choice

I guess if one assumes that Tideraces are only for ppl who know a lot about boat specs or who read the magazines a lot, it all makes sense. But I think there's ppl with money to spend who don't necessarily know a ton about boats.

I have done my share of trying buying and selling kayaks I like what I have but wish to try more. I do not despite the appearance this may give have money to burn (if I did the quiver would be considerably larger) and unless money is no object the rule of search, ask and go try until you are happy is a good one. Unless you are able to identify what it is you wish to do with your new (or second hand )toy then there is a problem with making any thoughtful choice. All kayaks are going to be a compromise in my opinion and the clearer you are about what it is you would like from it the better. Combine this with your physique, ask for advise from more than one retailer or manufacturer and a short list to try ought to become clearer.
Factors such as age and strength for lifting on/off a car roof, the availability of a suitable supplier may influence such decision also. There are a great number of kayaks which might be perfect for me which I have never even looked simply because thay have not come across my path and I can not try them all.

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Are we suggesting that SOT's are (in general) fit for the same purpose as traditional sea kayaks? I always saw them as the equivalent of a T in the Park £5.00 disposable tent, when compared with a Vango. Yes they do the same thing but one of them will make you more likely to die if you're half way up a mountain and a storm hits you.

If I'm going for a 25-30 mile paddle, in my 18foot sea kayak and someone was to turn up in a 12 foot long, 3 foot wide SOT I'd have serious doubts about them making it out and back. You want to muck about in sheltered waters and do a bit of fishing, without having to learn a whole bunch of balance and handling stuff? Yeah SOT will do you fine but it's not a proper sea kayak, just as a lilo is not a proper inflatable dinghy.

Why are they so popular? Because they are dirt cheap and (I'd guess) most people don't mean to do it as a serious hobby, rather than something for the kids to play on, once or twice a year, while on holiday.

[ArnoG]

Are we suggesting that SOT's are (in general) fit for the same purpose as traditional sea kayaks? I always saw them as the equivalent of a T in the Park £5.00 disposable tent, when compared with a Vango.

If I understand correctly, Mark suggest that both of those are tents. So when discussing the strongest lineup for tents, Higear and Halfords should be indcluded not just Mountain Hardwear and Hilleberg.

A.-

[MikeB]

The main problem with Vango is getting any indication of what their tents are for, based on the names they use anyway - - back in the world of kayaking, it's obvious that if you buy a Nordkapp you intend to go to - err, Nordkapp. Paddling the thing on the Clyde just doesnt cut it.

[MarineMammal]

Getting a bit more focused and ignoring SOTs, websites, sales figures, tents, and Wildy rec kayak recommendations for a moment...

Who really DOES have the Strongest Sea Kayak Lineup Overall™, strictly in terms of how it serves the needs of 'hardcore' sea kayakers?

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[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Are we suggesting that SOT's are (in general) fit for the same purpose as traditional sea kayaks? I always saw them as the equivalent of a T in the Park £5.00 disposable tent, when compared with a Vango.

If I understand correctly, Mark suggest that both of those are tents. So when discussing the strongest lineup for tents, Higear and Halfords should be indcluded not just Mountain Hardwear and Hilleberg.

A.-

I'd go even further and say that those candystripe windbreak things should also be included, given that they bear pretty much the same relationship to a tent that a SOT does to a kayak. The marketing guys are trying to change the definition of "Kayak" to something it patently isn't. Kayaks are closed cockpit, that's one of the things that makes them not canoes. If you're going to call a SOT "kayak" then you might as well call an oil tanker "kayak" as well, or a Cessna single engine air-plane, or an electrical tin opener ...

The word has to mean something otherwise it's just a synonym for "Thingumybob"

[MikeB]

No - I'm not sure about this - surely a beach umbrella has as much right to be included as a stripey thing-wotisit? I note with interest that one of the foremost designers of the craft we use has suggested that a SoT isn't (errr) a kayak. Mike.

[MikeB]

Getting a bit more focused and ignoring SOTs, websites, sales figures, tents, and Wildy rec kayak recommendations for a moment...

Who really DOES have the Strongest Sea Kayak Lineup Overall™, strictly in terms of how it serves the needs of 'hardcore' sea kayakers?

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What? I thought we'd done this to death already. Which might be why the thread has de-railed and gone off on extraneous tangents. It's not Tahe - it might be T/race - it could be Valley - possiby P&H - NDK even - they all have decent boats in a range of sizes and constructions. What other criteria are there for goodness sake? Then again, define "hardcore".

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

EXTREME!!!!!

[bobt]

Perhaps you could answer my question about how good [Wilderness Systems' boats] might be?

Check here... this page has a TON of user reviews on most of the Wilderness Systems boats, including the more 'recreation -type kayaks for the kids' you said you were interested in earlier:

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showKay ... l?manf=176

Perhaps also consider starting your own thread on your topic, so as to more fully answer your question and not sidetrack this discussion. Good luck.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I did start my own thread on it and this question was ignored which is why I hyjacked this thread. TBF, the thread title asks who has the strongest line up and that could have included Wilderness Systems.

Thanks again for the help.

[Bod]

BobT

We do have Wilderness Systems in the UK. They are distributed by Palm (Dagger Europe). I have only paddled one of their wide-bodied 12ft touring boats although it was quite capable for what it was. Thinking about what you said, given that they do SoTs, recreational boats and longer boats in plastic and composite, I would agree that they have a very diverse line-up. They are just not that big in the UK. I can't see why your comments should be discouraged by MarineMammal from this diverse thread.

[Mark R]

Perhaps also consider starting your own thread on your topic, so as to more fully answer your question and not sidetrack this discussion. Good luck.

You do not have any authority to tell folk what they can or can't discuss or where, on this forum. Discuss as you please, all.

[Graham T]

Okay I'll jump in and say SKUK has the strongest line up if you order one of theirs with the lay up for center use not just strong probably near bomb proof !!!!!! yeah tongue in cheek but this question seems pretty much unanswerable with any great consensus

[MikeB]

Beginners boat - http://m.youtube.com/#/profile?desktop_ ... yaks&gl=GB

[No Kayak]

Okay I'll jump in and say SKUK has the strongest line up if you order one of theirs with the lay up for center use not just strong probably near bomb proof !!!!!! yeah tongue in cheek but this question seems pretty much unanswerable with any great consensus

[tongue in cheek]You'll just need two people to carry it and one to finish it off[/tongue in cheek] ;)

[dpround]

Re SOT kayaks, I was just trying to make the point that there will be vast numbers of people who have started out with SOTs looking for a more serious sea boat. As a coach I know that lots of people have very serious hangups about spray decks. There seems to me to be a real hole in the market and all the big traditional sea kayak manufacturers are letting it go to whoever. If I were a starting up a company right now, this is the area I would focus on - but I wouldn't stand a chance if one of the big players with the name brands did wake up. On the original question of strongest line up, I would say that all the sea kayak manufacturers are very exposed right now and could see their long term market share significantly decreased by whoever takes this opportunity and captures the SOT generation.

There are lots of comments about SOT speed. In my experience this is not a real issue, though undeniably the top speed is lower. I can easily outrun the local canoe clubs group potter on a OK prowler elite. What these OK boats do not do is offer any connectivity, secondary stability, edge control etc etc. These features could easily be achieved with the appropriate hull form to allow the development of paddling skill.

SOTs are a very wet ride in any significant conditions, so I don't see a real problem with having the seat below the water line. IIRC the OK drifter does just that, but your feet are above it, which really tests your flexibility if you want good posture! Really though, speed is not the issue, hull form and connectivity are.

Please understand that these opinions are in no way formed by personal desire. I would not buy a SOT crossover boat. I have my NDK explorer and am happy with that.

David

[Jim]

(Jim, fancy explaining "GM"?)

Sorry, I had to explain it in a meeting in Exeter yesterday, the early start, 4 flights, 2 meetings and late finish, coupled with the stress of explaining GZ and GM to some important people as part of a further explanation regarding how we want to load something, has left me washed out - no more technical explanations from me this week I'm afraid. Anyone that wants to know can try finding me in or around Ravenglass at the weekend, but note that I might be sleeping when I'm not paddling. It's easier with a pencil a paper to sketch on at the same time.

[Jim]

Sure, but it's an intentionally broad question. The two most obvious metrics, when discussing 'strongest line-up' :

1) Sales/popularity, i.e. 'the mass market/rec market'
2) How well said line-up meets the needs of the 'hardcore' sea kayaker

These metrics weren't part of the original question, are you sure you aren't changing the rules to dismiss a valid argument?

I guess if one assumes that Tideraces are only for ppl who know a lot about boat specs or who at least read the magazines a lot, it all makes sense. But I think there's ppl with money to spend who don't necessarily know a ton about boats,

Surely this is not a description of a 'hardcore' sea kayaker?

How about a sort of anecdote proving that boats with open cockpits should be a part of our sport?

Years ago when we were Sea Scouts my brother had a bad experience getting trapped in a closed cockpit kayak due to panic after he got run down by our raft (catamaran made from angle bar frame and lots of plastic drums), when he finally got out of the boat he managed to come up under one of the hulls of the raft so was even more panicked by not being able to get to the surface. This experience put him off kayaking for a lot of years, he took to canoeing instead (we had lots of different types of boats to choose from but it was before SOTs) and right through school canoeing was his thing, he even built canoes for school projects. Then at some point he regained some confidence to try kayak again, and whilst he hadn't become quite as strong a kayaker as me last time I was out with him, he was right up there and running rivers with some of Scotlands best. He has also taken to sea kayaking and owns a Greenlander Pro which he has been away with us in some reasonably chunky conditions. However 2 years ago he and his girlfriend went travelling ending up in NZ where they found some work as sea kayak guides. The last time I spoke to him they had bought sea kayaks but actually spent most of their time paddling SOTs (including multiday trips) guiding groups of all abilities, and were finding them really good boats to get on with.

So what we can draw from that, is that had SOTs been around 20 years ago, my brother might have stuck with kayak right through (we always paddled canoe a lot anyway, he just got to a point of never paddling kayak), and even though he has now (long since) dealt with his own problems with kayaks, he is now having a lot of fun with SOTs and paddling exactly the same things he would use a closed cockpit sea kayak for.

As for the oxford dictionary definition of a kayak, it might be as well to remind them that some of the earliest European kayaks (Rob Roy McGregors for example) were open cockpit affairs with a plan form more akin to a modern SOT, from what I can tell they used to have seat backs and often masts and sails too. So no, I don't buy the argument that a SOT is not a proper sea kayak for any of the reasons being argued, and I do believe that they should be more widely accepted by us self proclaimed 'proper' kayakers.

[Jim]

Okay I'll jump in and say SKUK has the strongest line up if you order one of theirs with the lay up for center use not just strong probably near bomb proof !!!!!! yeah tongue in cheek but this question seems pretty much unanswerable with any great consensus

I try to avoid saying anything that simply slags off a manufacturer, so I need to choose my words carefully here because SKUK/ND does have some great designs and it may not come accross that way!

It doesn't count as a strong line up, because until recently there have really only been 2 designs of single kayak from them - the Romany/Explorer/Pilgrim lines are very clearly inter-related and essentially follow the same form. The point is that it is a very good form so what you have in effect is something like 10 boats almost the same but subtly different, so in terms of finding the perfect one for you, there must be one somewhere in the family. Likewise the Greenlander family are closely related although the race is quite a bit longer. The Cadence looks like something new and possibly interesting, not quite marketed as competition for the Taran, Pace, XP18 etc. but at first glance certainly looks to be heading towards that growing niche....

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

As for the oxford dictionary definition of a kayak, it might be as well to remind them that some of the earliest European kayaks (Rob Roy McGregors for example) were open cockpit affairs with a plan form more akin to a modern SOT, from what I can tell they used to have seat backs and often masts and sails too. So no, I don't buy the argument that a SOT is not a proper sea kayak for any of the reasons being argued, and I do believe that they should be more widely accepted by us self proclaimed 'proper' kayakers.

Respectfully disagree, the Rob Roy was indeed a closed cockpit (albeit a very large cockpit) You sat below deck and had the option of a spraydeck and/or sail attachment.

Even the Rob Roy, however, with it's closed cockpit and hull/deck layout was never considered a Kayak - it was a Canoe. Kayak's were a very specific design, invented by Inuit and made popular much later.

An SOT is essentially a surfboard with a seat or a plastic dinghy. I have nothing against the craft, the people who choose to use them or the fact that it can be a gateway drug to kayaking but it is not a kayak. River kayaks, waveskis, playboats, etc.. are an obvious evolution of the kayak but SOT's I'd say were more of a hybrid thing.

Kinda like how a motorbike is not generally considered to be a two wheeled car.

[Jim]

Hmmm:

http://www.pyranhafest.com/timeline.php
"Pyranha develop the Worlds first self draining kayak, and it also features the first removable deck. The ROB ROY Mk 1"

OK, maybe I got the Rob Roy canoe mixed up on account of Pyranha cashing in on it as a Kayak. Funny but theirs looks a lot like a modern SOT....

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Having had a good, long hard think about this, I'm starting to see the other side of the argument now. Based specifically on surfskis which, essentially have all the hallmarks of what I'd call a kayak, but with an open cockpit. Maybe it's all getting a bit -ship of Theseus- where does it end, I wonder? Brookbank are selling SUP's, if they end up joining the Kayak family then that'll open the door to any kind of surf/bodyboard/waterski...

At the other end of the spectrum we have those huge, custom transatlantic fellas. Stick a sail on one of those and you're half way to including any kind of yacht. I'm sure it's already been done by the odd lone nutter but sooner or later outboard motors will become popular. Another couple of years and the answer to the question - "what is a kayak" will be "anything from a plank of wood to a cruise liner."

[Aled]

if they end up joining the Kayak family

Done! http://www.paddleexpo.com/