Valley, NDK, TRace, Rockpool, P&H- Strongest Lineup Overall?

[MarineMammal]

Just curious as to current opinions on this one (and yes, I agree that all 5 companies are quite good)... who has the overall best sea kayak lineup going right now, and why?

Preferably stated from a position of having tried a number of boats.

(hopefully ppl will agree to disagree agreeably on the topic – this isn't paddling.net/a pirates' den, after all)

...

[andyE]

Preferably stated from a position of having tried a number of boats....

That's what you need to do, it's a bit like shopping for shoes you need to try them on to see if they fit.

[Graham T]

For me the best balance of reliability of construction (no QC issues) balance of weight/strength/toughness, finish and spec and ergonomics I like Tiderace.
When it comes to design I also like them but think this is more linked to individual paddlers likes and requirements.
For comparitive purposes I have owned
SKUK Greenlander Pro still have
Valley Anas Acuta carbon/kevlar
Valley Nordkapp LV carbon/kevlar
Tiderace Xcite Polish hardcore
Tiderace XploreS Finish hardcore hardcore still have
Tiderace Xtreme Thai hardcore still have

I have some background in glass construction all be it long ago (dinghies) and have looked closely at offerings from Rockpool and P&H as well and would own kayaks from any of the manufacturers mentioned.

Not sure that helps and further opinion would not be for open forum at this time, because it would be my opinion from what matters to me, and how some comments are open to being misconstrued.
So I also think you need to weigh up what is important to you, what useage the kayak is going to be put to and try as many as possible (not easy) and in the conditions you hope to paddle in, a half hour on flat water will not tell you much except if it fits or not and floats !.

[MikeB]

Define "lineup"? If you're looking for a boat you need to consider exactly what the important criteria are, for you. And then, having spent hours trawling the spec sheets and looked thro the data on the various websites, all of which are of varying content and quality, you'll then have a short list to try. You may however find that your personal, ideal boat, wasn't even on that shortlist.

If the question is more generic, as in "which manufacturer makes the best boats?", then all of your suggested ones make good boats.

Or, is it about who offers the widest range of choices?

Mike.

[MarineMammal]

Just to clarify... I personally am not necessarily looking for a boat right now.

The question is more of a 'state of the industry' one, as in "Who's doing it best right now, and why do you think so?"

Consider it more of a 'sitting round the table while having a few beers' bull session.

My apologies on not being able to supply a round via the interwebs.

[Graham T]

Hmmmmmmmmm can you stipulate we do not include marketing in the equation please !!!

[MarineMammal]

Hmmmmmmmmm can you stipulate we do not include marketing in the equation please !!!

Graham, I so stipulate. We're talking product and product lines here, not marketing or websites of any kind.

There's already a separate thread on that, for Valley at least, as we all know. :)

...

[No Kayak]

It's an incredibly subjective topic where the answer will be different from paddler to paddler.

Overall in the sea kayak market, I'd say Tahe (including their sub-brands such as Zegul) have the most comprehensive lineup. They have covered composite from the point of view of boat types/styles/price points, and in plastic they're well on the way to having the same. They offer a kayak dealer a comprehensive opportunity to provide any open minded customer walking through the door, the opportunity to find something suitable in their lineup. In all their product areas, they are open to development and introduction of new product as soon as it is required.

Of the others on the list provided, it's a mixed bag.

Valley have composite and plastic covered, though until the introduction of the Etain it was all pretty old and staid with regards to market appeal. The Etain and Gemini boats will cover the composite position of P&H, though unless the plastic of both in all sizes come through, P&H will still in my eyes have the edge in that regard. From an outside point of view, I'm not sure what the role of the Nordkapp is supposed to be with respect to the Etain? There is no real differentiation in price point or supposed capability, so in essence they compete, and dealers will be reluctant to support older product in terms of stocking it. They obviously paddle differently enough to have their own places in the range, but whether they compliment or compete is a fudged position.

NDK have an old, though tried and tested product line. There is seemingly little effort to appeal to anything other than the established kayaking crowd with NDK, so the offering is almost entirely composite (the plastic Romany is generally unloved within the industry). The growth areas of 'play' and 'speed' seem to be missing at first glance (the Cadence isn't really a sea kayak, as such)- maybe they will introduce yet another Romany spin-off to fill those gaps, who knows? What people do get from NDK, is a tried and tested product that's well proven by proper expeditioning (not that that is unique to them).

Tiderace are a mixed bag. Various factory moves have meant varying speeds of development and quality throughout the years. In composite, there's a contemporary mix of product, effectively taking what was done at NDK and Rockpool and modernised it, then adding new things to compete with new trends, such as the Pace 18 to take on the Taran and XP18 etc. The exped boat lineup maybe mirrors Valley a little, with the Xplore taking up the Nordkapp role and the Xcapes being the Etain, looking after less adventurous paddlers. No plastic means Tiderace will likely stay a low(ish) volume composite only at the top of the price point, though relatively low start-up costs for new models means low production runs of new models can be justified.

Rockpool have an interesting range. The Alaw boats have a lot of competition in the marketplace, though Mike does a great job of keeping the low-volume ethos and 'mysticism' of the brand going. People really do feel like VIPs buying from Rockpool. John Willacy coming on board has obviously been a fillip and the Taran has spread the Rockpool word, perhaps even being responsible for really launching the idea of the fast sea kayak for the everyday paddler. The problem with Rockpool is the low level of resources and production. No plastic and questions over the ownership of the company make proper expansion into niches at any appreciable volume nigh on impossible.

P&H have the best volume setup in the market, at the moment. They have managed to persuade the market it wanted the Delphin, and the Cetus/Scorpio is cosy enough a platform that it will suit pretty much any paddler as an A-B machine. On terms of shifting volume, they do a great job, but their lineup more or less comprises of two designs, and that's about it. Spreading those designs over different sizes and composite/plastic lets them fill most of the places it needs, but I'd question how fast can the development keep going to keep pace with the way the boats are marketed?


All the manufacturers have their strengths and weaknesses. The best range or quality of product will not necessarily make the most successful company in this market.

[MikeB]

No Tahe bias there then. This being the company who make a large double with no bulkhead between the rear cockpit and the large centre hatch. Lethal thing if you ever had to deal with a flooded one, imco. The dealer network seems to focus more on the generic paddling dealers rather than the specialists sea kayak retailers though. Which may - or may not - be a good thing.

Other than that, I'd broadly agree with your overall observations.

Except to suggest that your comments on Tiderace are a little short of the mark. I'm somewhat uncertain as to how you manage to define them as "low volumn", but I suppose you can prove that. The lack of a plastic offering really isnt a significant issue I'd suggest. Yes, there were issues with getting started but the quality of the product in the current line up is superb. Yes, I have one.

Valley make very good boats and seem to be on the ball with new product, notwithstanding the failings in their web presence. (Lets not go there again.) Yes, I had one. A Nordkapp.

P&H offers some fine boats, no doubt the result of the Pyrhana tie up. Yes, I had several. A Quest and an early plastic Capella, as well as a glass Capella and a later plastic Capella.

I'd add Northshore as another serious contender if you look at quality, design, price and overall performance. Whether they are shifting volumn is another matter of course. But they are superb boats.

Accepting your criteria is very broad in the basis of your question, the proof of any pudding in this market is how many people buy mainstream sea kayaks. Worldwide. The other key criteria is how active and responsive the manufacturer is in designing new products for emerging markets, and in marketing those products. Like it or not, marketing is a very significant factor here. Part of that is the effort being put into demo days and I suggest that's very heavily driven by the manufacturer, even though it appears to be from the retailers who do it.

Mike.

[Douglas Wilcox]

I am fortunate enough to have a P&H, a Valley and a Rockpool. I like them all, I think you call that Pick 'n Mix.

Douglas

[MarineMammal]

Accepting your criteria is very broad in the basis of your question, the proof of any pudding in this market is how many people buy mainstream sea kayaks. Worldwide. The other key criteria is how active and responsive the manufacturer is in designing new products for emerging markets, and in marketing those products. Like it or not, marketing is a very significant factor here. Part of that is the effort being put into demo days and I suggest that's very heavily driven by the manufacturer, even though it appears to be from the retailers who do it.

You know that is very true, marketing and 'sea kayak evangelism' is incredibly important, not only for the manufacturer, but the health of the sea kayak industry as a whole.

My 'stipulation' was primarily to placate the gent who was apparently terrified of this being 'Valley's website stinks' thread #2.
Regardless of the quality of Valley's website (or lack thereof), I think we can steer clear of that, while still being able to talk about marketing as a whole.

Some points I'd add, possibly a bit tangential:

1) World economy is still rather shaky, and ours is an expensive sport compared to many others.

2) Some note that sea kayaking is becoming a sport of the middle-aged and old, with not so many youngsters coming up. At least here in the US and Canada, it seems to be so.

3) Given 1) and 2), perhaps cost is a barrier to entry for the young. This would perhaps seem to make plastic boats and simpler/smaller/lower-cost composite boats like the Gemini(s) increasingly important (so yes, I wouldn't mind seeing rotomold boats from the likes of Tiderace or, gasp, even Rockpool).

4) This would also make marketing/'kayaking evangelism' to the young of vital importance.

5) Is it a good idea to 'go to the market', whatever/wherever it may be?, such as 'conventional' sit-on-tops (i.e. not skis) and shorter 'transitional'/day-tourer boats? Is it sheer heresy/infamy for the legendary British brands to do this? P&H's Venture line already does, but we note that those boats are not branded 'P&H'.

The classic trade-off is, of course, potentially more sales vs watering down your brand. Which is the more important consideration? Is the correct way out of the issue what P&H did with Venture, or perhaps what Valley may be 'starting to do' with the Geminis?

Not that those are the only choices... some manufacturers might happily remain niche, such as Rockpool.

...

[Bod]

Rockpool have an interesting range. No plastic

That only works if you ignore the plastic Rockpool Alaw Bach?

[Jim]

The problem with Rockpool is the low level of resources and production. No plastic ......

As an informed industry insider you don't seem very well informed, when I picked up my Taran in August Mike showed me a polythene boat (Alaw Bach I think) and I'm sure he said they were selling in large numbers in the market that had requested them (not the UK). There doesn't seem to be a place for it in the UK market where polythene boats are generally considered only suitable as a cheap introduction to the sport, and no-one would be prepared to pay the price even if it could be shown to outperform the composite version.

I will agree on the principle of 'niche' insofar as Mike tries to do things differently with an eye to innovation and progress, the Alaw was the first non-chine/SOF style boat to have a definite bubble to allow a high knee position which suits a niche market, the Bach is a nod toward the main market, but generally the Rockpool boats were different when they first came out, although the principles do get incorporated by other manufacturers so they don't look as different a couple of years on. of course this means they can't really be considered for the best lineup, simply because there is no pretence of catering for everyone, which I think is what MarineMammal was looking for in the question?

I can't really answer that question since prior to the Taran most of my experience outside of my Sea King was with Valley boats, and they certainly have had a pretty good range over the years (and some of the classics can still be custom ordered making the range larger than first appears). P&H have always had something popular, whether it was the Orion (onion), Quest, or Capella and the Delphin seems to be the latest cool toy so definitely a contender. Tiderace seem to lead the way in alternate sizes and hi-tech construction options, to be honest though I didn't clearly see how the different models suit different roles, but that is perhaps because I only really think of boats in terms of 2 roles - day tripping and camping, so the whole lineup question must be about suiting different kinds of people?

I think all the manufacturers have something to cover the 2 roles, after that it is about paddler preferences and no-one can really cater for them all, which is presumably why we have so many succesful manufacturers!

[No Kayak]

The problem with Rockpool is the low level of resources and production. No plastic ......

As an informed industry insider you don't seem very well informed, when I picked up my Taran in August Mike showed me a polythene boat (Alaw Bach I think) and I'm sure he said they were selling in large numbers in the market that had requested them (not the UK). There doesn't seem to be a place for it in the UK market where polythene boats are generally considered only suitable as a cheap introduction to the sport, and no-one would be prepared to pay the price even if it could be shown to outperform the composite version.

You're thinking of the thermoform Alaw Bach. This was actually a deal made by Chris Mitchell (of Eddyline in the US) and Chris Reed of Reed Chillcheater. As far as I'm aware, those two (and perhaps others) paid for the tooling, and Eddyline make the boats in the States on their behalf. To the best of my knowledge Mike had little input into the whole thing and is simply paid a royalty on each boat. English law regarding unregistered design rights (the Alaw/Bach is an unregistered design) would mean they would be obliged to offer a royalty agreement with whoever held the rights to the design.. You will notice there is no mention of the thermoform boat on the Rockpool website

Karitek have tried to sell them in the UK, but I don't believe the numbers have been that great. Desperate Measures were also doing the same, but appeared to be offering them at a healthy discount and seem to have dropped them now altogether.

The costs of Eddyline producing those boats for a manufacturer are so great, that even with a high retail price, the margins are too small to allow manufacturer, distributor and dealer each a sustainable margin. Having worked with a lot of the US dealers stocking the product, it seems it doesn't sell that well without resorting to heavy discounting there either, which then defeats the entire object.

In any case, it's not a 'plastic' boat in the sense of the rotomoulded ones produced by other manufacturers to sell at volume, as was the point in the discussion regarding the competition.

[Jim]

In any case, it's not a 'plastic' boat in the sense of the rotomoulded ones produced by other manufacturers to sell at volume, as was the point in the discussion regarding the competition.

Like I say, the problem is mainly that the market considers 'plastic' to mean cheap rotomoulded. Even if the thermoformed boats were shown to be better than composite, the stigma of being 'plastic' would prevent them selling at the necessary price point to make them viable here. Perhaps I wrongly got the impression that they were selling OK in the US?

I thought you were being a bit disingenuous by saying Rockpool don't have a plastic boat, but I guess if it is effectively an Eddylines boat with royalties to Rockpool then your point is valid.

It does fit with Mikes drive for innovation, I had no idea it wasn't a composite boat until he pointed it out to me, it is something very different to the rotomoulded offerings we are used to. Of course being a composite snob myself I was in to pick up my Carboin/Kevlar/Epoxy Taran which was exciting enough that I don't remember all we talked about! :-)

[MikeB]

Surely, in a sense, a "composite" boat is "plastic"? As in GRP = Glass Re-inforced Plastic?

That said, while many of the latest "thermoformed / plastic" boats are excellent (the plastic Northshore Atlantic for example), some of the early ones really are not too wonderful in comparison with their "glass" cousins. Witness the original square-hatch / MkI Capella which was nothing like the glass varient at the time, that being a rather nice boat.

I'm quite surprised though that the Carbonlite / Thermoformed Composite Construction concept hasn't taken off more in the UK market. I paddled with a chap using one recently, and it was a very nice boat indeed. Mike.

[MarineMammal]

The problem with Rockpool is the low level of resources and production. No plastic ......

As an informed industry insider you don't seem very well informed, when I picked up my Taran in August Mike showed me a polythene boat (Alaw Bach I think) and I'm sure he said they were selling in large numbers in the market that had requested them (not the UK).

My apologies for jumping in, but just to be sure we're on the same page... we are talking the thermoform Alaw Bach that's made for Rockpool by Eddyline in the US and sold in the US, yes? (the 'Alaw Bach TCC'). There is no rotomold Rockpool, correct?

I mean sure, as many of us know, ABS/thermoform boats are still technically 'plastic', but all else being equal they are quite a bit more expensive than the rotomold boats (that I've ever seen).

The Alaw Bach TCC goes for $3000 US, and I'm slightly miffed they don't have an ABS Alaw (sans Bach) available for us slightly-bigger boys.

If the Bach TCC is selling in 'large numbers' as you say (and I don't know that it is), then an ABS Alaw probably would too, stands to reason. Or, ZOMG (as we say on the US Internets), an ABS Taran.(!)

(Ah well, one can dream.)

There doesn't seem to be a place for it in the UK market where polythene boats are generally considered only suitable as a cheap introduction to the sport, and no-one would be prepared to pay the price even if it could be shown to outperform the composite version.

Really? Not disputing this in any way, as I'm not a UK boater, just slightly surprised.

It's interesting to me because, over here on the left side of the Atlantic, the US market seems quite price-sensitive, and is perhaps more accepting of rotomold boats (note I don't say 'plastic', as ABS/thermoform boats almost 'look composite', and thus aren't subjected to as much 'boat snobbery').

Then of course you have to ask, "Well, price sensitive to whom?". The hardcore/boat snobs, or the mainstream? Thing is, can the hardcore alone sustain the market indefinitely, especially if, as some maintain, 'the hardcore' are mostly well-off middle-aged and old people, with not a ton of youngsters coming up?

I will agree on the principle of 'niche' insofar as Mike tries to do things differently with an eye to innovation and progress, the Alaw was the first non-chine/SOF style boat to have a definite bubble to allow a high knee position which suits a niche market

I have to ask, was that position a Mike thing, or an Aled thing, or both?

I ask because Aled designed (co-designed?) the Alaw/Alaw Bach, and his (relatively) new baby Tiderace seems to espouse the same kind of position in its boats.

of course this means they can't really be considered for the best lineup, simply because there is no pretence of catering for everyone, which I think is what MarineMammal was looking for in the question?

The question is intentionally left open-ended so that ppl can decide for themselves a bit what constitutes the 'strongest' or best overall lineup.

I personally tend to think that mass appeal is a 'good thing' for sea kayaking as a whole (along with 'gateway drug' –type cheaper-but-still-capable sea kayaks), but I fully understand how others might consider a maker who caters to the hardcore as having a 'stronger' overall lineup. Some ppl don't give a fig about mass appeal, and that's certainly valid too in its own way.

Tiderace seem to lead the way in alternate sizes and hi-tech construction options, to be honest though I didn't clearly see how the different models suit different roles, but that is perhaps because I only really think of boats in terms of 2 roles - day tripping and camping, so the whole lineup question must be about suiting different kinds of people?

To turn to marketing again (which I guess really is inextricably woven in with maker lineups), it is rather confusing initially to figure up what TR's lineup is all about at first glance. The boat names are all very similar-sounding, and their website doesn't seem to do a very good job of explaining precisely who and what each boat is 'for', at least not unless you dig around a bit (so yes, Valley is not alone in having an arguably flawed website).

From what I understand, the Xcape and the Xplore are their expedition boats, with the Xcape slanted towards being reassuring to beginner paddlers, while the Xplore is for the more seasoned expedition paddler. The Xcite is sort of an 'all-around' boat, that can both play and tour reasonably well. The Xtra is a playboat, and the Xtreme is 'cutting edge' monomaniacally-focused playboat. The Pace18 is pretty obviously their ski-inspired 'go fast' boat.

I think all the manufacturers have something to cover the 2 roles, after that it is about paddler preferences and no-one can really cater for them all, which is presumably why we have so many succesful manufacturers!

Sorry to make this post so Aled/Tiderace-heavy, but Williams did say on these forums something about there being, in his view, 'four basic' categories to sea kayaks these days (my possibly-flawed two cents added in parentheses):

– Rough water 'play' boats (self-evident)
– Traditional Inuit-style boats (boats such as the NDK Greenlander, for example)
– Coastal touring/expedition boats (I'd guess that'd include 'day tripper'/transitional boats as well)
- Fast touring/sea-racing style boats ('ski-inspired' boats such as the Taran and Epic 18X)


If you look at it that way, then not every maker covers all bases. Question is, should they or should they not?

Sorry to gab on, but the topics are interesting.

...

[swagstaff]

Re price of Thermoformed.
The Hurricane Tracer 165 imported by System X sells for £1350 and can be demoed at Sea Kayak Oban. It looks very nice.

[MarineMammal]

Re price of Thermoformed.
The Hurricane Tracer 165 imported by System X sells for £1350 and can be demoed at Sea Kayak Oban. It looks very nice.

The Tracer is quite cheap for an ABS/thermoform boat ($1750 here in the US). But, ABS boat prices are all over the map, frankly, even if you avoid things like the Alaw Bach TCC and its royalty payment situation.

For example, the equivalent Eddyline ABS boat, the Journey (no day hatch, like the Tracer, but about a foot shorter) goes for $2400. I would guess this disparity is in part because the Hurricane brand has little 'sea kayaker cachet' in the US (I have never seen a Tracer on the water), while Eddyline has some (and perhaps thinks rather highly of itself). Hurricane is mostly known here as a maker of recreational kayaks and sit-on-tops (as in for fishing, not skis).

I think the easiest comparison is like to like. As in the Perception Essence, which comes in both ABS and rotomold.
Same boat, just different construction processes.

In ABS, it goes for $1800. In rotomold, $1300. So, the ABS version is almost 40% more.

If you'd prefer rotomold comparisons to the Tracer, that's a bit tricky, because the Tracer is a reasonably long (16' 5") yet only two-hatch boat. Most rotomold boats of its length have a day hatch, while most RM boats that are two-hatch like the Tracer are considerably shorter.

But, you could find a 15' rotomold 2-hatch boat here for $1000 (Perception Expression). Or you could have a 17' RM boat with a day hatch for $1300 (the Essence, again).

ABS/thermoform is more expensive, really.

...

[budgester]

2) Some note that sea kayaking is becoming a sport of the middle-aged and old, with not so many youngsters coming up. At least here in the US and Canada, it seems to be so.

3) Given 1) and 2), perhaps cost is a barrier to entry for the young. This would perhaps seem to make plastic boats and simpler/smaller/lower-cost composite boats like the Gemini(s) increasingly important (so yes, I wouldn't mind seeing rotomold boats from the likes of Tiderace or, gasp, even Rockpool).

4) This would also make marketing/'kayaking evangelism' to the young of vital importance.

...

I was going to say I hope I'm not beginning to get old, but I guess being 40 next year kinda makes me middle age.

I think one of the main issues has got to be it's not only the cost of a Sea Kayak, but getting it places, you need a decent sized vehicle unless you live right on the coast, plus all that extra safety equipment. (Spare paddle, VHF, Flares, GPS, Pump,Dry bags, Drysuit, Trolley, etc etc.) Can easily get you to £2000+ start up cost.

To get started on flat water paddling, you could easily ebay everything you need for about £400 so a fifth of the price, and how many clubs actually have Sea kayaks and the coaches to run trips, training and sessions ?

These youngsters can throw a small playboat in the back of hatchback and go park and play at a White Water park, or have fun on weirs and do all sorts of trick on flat water.

Plus with petrol prices at the moment you are looking at probably around £100 a time to get to the coast and back from london, with 2 sea kayaks.

Or get 4 smelly WW paddlers in one hatchback with 4 boats on the roof and your costs come down considerably.

Or lets look at another comparison.

The Teifi tour - £10-£20 includes camping, shuttle.

A typical Sea Kayak Symposium £100 - £150

However with Sea Kayaking, it takes a bit of patience, planning, and training to do it safely and successfully, so maybe it's all that time, while the kids are in bed that we are planning our next weekend escape.

[MikeB]

My apologies for jumping in, but just to be sure we're on the same page...

Are we? With apologies for seeming to leap to the "defence" of T/race, I wonder what website you're looking at? You say they dont describe what their boats are intended to do - surely not? How much more info do you need? Witness this example.

"The Xtra - Perfect for surfing, rockhopping and day touring

The Xtra is a short, nimble and stable sea kayak designed for manoeuvrability through the rock gardens. It incorporates a hard-chined hull mid-section for outstanding surfing ability. This highly controllable boat provides security and fun for those seeking adventures close to shore"

Audi designate their cars as "A" series. BMW as a number series. P&H use star signs. What on earth is negative about using a rather snappy "X" designation - it's certainly very quickly built a strongly recognisable brand in a competitive marketplace.

Taking the discussion a stage further, I'd suggest that one of the key factors for any mainstream manufacturer in todays market is to offer a range of boats, in a range of sizes. That situation has improved notably in the past 5 years, and the ability to choose a boat type, and then actually get one that fits properly, really is a quatum leap forward. No a leap that every mainstream manufacturer has made in a coherent, structured way either.

Another aspect is that mass production of something which used to be a bespoke, handmade product results in the prospective purchaser being able to now buy a high quality boat off the shelf. That this also means a standardised product may be either good or bad, depending on perspective. Its easy to make a virtue of the fact that any product is made to order, and the automotive industry is a prime example. Go back 20 years though, and your brand new British Leyland Maxi would be picked from the massive stock which had been lying around some disused airfield for years. Today, there is no BL but you'll have trouble buying a new Beemer if you want it today.

As to the market being predominantly "older" people, I'm not 100% behind this although I would agree that many sea paddlers are indeed more mature in years. That the sport requires time may be part of this. Disappearing for a weekend, or even a day's paddling, calls for time, something which might be more difficult for someone with a family. Then there is also the little matter of where do you store 18' of sea kayak, not to mention the ability to move the thing around the countryside - so transport is essential. Again, perhaps there may be a bias to a more established , older person, as a result.

That said, if we look at the large number of what we might term "sporty models", intended for "playing", then that surely suggests a focus on those folk who may, perhaps, be younger than the inaccurate perception that most sea paddlers are "old blokes".

Mike.

[Jim]

I hadn't realised there were other thermoformed boats in the UK, like I said before it was just a comment in response to no Kayaks claim that they have no 'plastic' boats which in British terms means anything not composite, but RM PE is the basic assumption...

From what I could tell, the Alaw Bach TCC was worth much more than a RM boat, I just don't think the UK market is yet ready to see the difference :-)

I will agree on the principle of 'niche' insofar as Mike tries to do things differently with an eye to innovation and progress, the Alaw was the first non-chine/SOF style boat to have a definite bubble to allow a high knee position which suits a niche market

I have to ask, was that position a Mike thing, or an Aled thing, or both?

I ask because Aled designed (co-designed?) the Alaw/Alaw Bach, and his (relatively) new baby Tiderace seems to espouse the same kind of position in its boats.

This is a question I will try to steer away from. Aled and Mike worked together so there is bound to have been input from both of them and there is inevitably some similarity in some of the designs of the companies they each head up as a result.

Having met both Mike and Aled, I found them to be equally enthusiastic about innovation in kayak design and whilst the cynical might see the Pace 18 as a counter to the Taran, I think Aled's own interest in Skis had far more influence on it's evolution.

The 4 categories I don't consider quite so clear cut. There are traditional inuit style boats that work as dayboats/playboats and others that work as expedition boats - to me these are a subcategory within :-)
Any big boat is an 'expedition' boat, any small boat a day boat. The fast touring category is only just starting to emerge as distinct from the race category which I had overlooked, in the past sea kayak race boats have been extremely niche, mind you it's a bit of a dodgy one to overlook given what I paddle these days, mind you, I just wanted it for an easy paddling expedition boat, although I have upped my rate of day trips enormously so use it mainly for that :-)

Jim

[No Kayak]

Thermoforming sits in an uncomfortable position with regards sea kayak manufacture. Its properties sit in between plastic and composite, as does its natural retail price. There's no evidence out there that people on a low budget see thermoform as an upgrade path from plastic (rather, they prefer to move to composite proper), and you don't really want people moving down from a high margin composite to a low margin thermoform. You also have to take into account that most sea kayak manufacturers do not have the capability to produce thermoforming in-house, which further erodes the margin and therefore desire to spend time and resources developing it.

Manufacturers who have the technology in-house, and especially those who do not have a composite range (such as Eddyline), can make business sense from thermoforming, as the costs of production are reasonable and they are not competing with their own higher margin product.

When you discuss companies such as Rockpool or Tiderace, and that they do not have 'plastic' in the range, the specific inference being made is in the importance of a PE boat being missing and the circa £1000-£1300 price point gaping in the model line up. This is where Valley, P&H and, I imagine quite quickly, Tahe all have a more complete product range.

Thermoforming is a fairly meaningless blip with regards to the brands being mentioned.

[Chris Bolton]

...the importance of a PE boat being missing and the circa £1000-£1300 price point gaping in the model line up

I'm not sure I follow the significance of having a range of boats without gaps, for the sea kayak market. A range is good if you're selling on brand loyalty, but I don't think many people buy on that basis. I bought a Rockpool GT last year, and 20 years before that I bought a Vyneck from Pure Perfection Custom (aka Howard Jeffs) - I don't buy boats often enough for branding to be relevant. I just look at the boats on the market when I want to buy one, look at the philosophy of the builders and designers and decide what fits my needs. A continuous or complete range has no relevance at all, to me.

Chris

[Mikebelluk]

I have owned P&H, Rockpool and Valley boats, but always come back to this one in the end.... designed and built to suit my needs!

[MarineMammal]

My apologies for jumping in, but just to be sure we're on the same page...

Are we? With apologies for seeming to leap to the "defence" of T/race, I wonder what website you're looking at? You say [Tiderace] dont describe what their boats are intended to do - surely not? How much more info do you need? Witness this example.

"The Xtra - Perfect for surfing, rockhopping and day touring...

Mmm... well, first off, there's little need to leap to the defense of Tiderace, as no one hates them. I REALLY like a lot of what they're doing (4 sizes for the Xplore(!), tough builds, cutting-edge boat graphics, a willingness to break with tradition on things like paddling position, etc, etc).

However, it wouldn't be accurate to characterize my comments as saying that 'TR doesn't describe what their boats are intended to do.' What I actually said:

[i]MM: "...it's rather confusing initially to figure up what TR's lineup is all about at first glance. The boat names are all very similar-sounding, and their website doesn't seem to do a very good job of explaining precisely who and what each boat is 'for', at least not unless you dig around a bit."

(Btw, steel yourselves now folks, we've somehow ventured back into discussing kayak company websites. Why is this always so controversial here?)

Instead of just simply having categories ('Expedition', 'Play', 'Day Touring', etc) as many other manufacturer sites do, they rely on a paragraph of prose. Elegant, but in some cases it's clear, while in others it isn't so much.

For example, you kind of have to parse out/guess that the Xcape is the boat for beginners:

Xcape Series
An efficient expedition sea kayak for the discerning paddler

Refinement through and through. The Xcape is renowned for its stability, its predictable control in the wind, its ease of tracking and its slippery and efficient hull shape. Designed to take the hard work out of expeditioning, the Xcape will glide through challenging conditions and while away the miles.


You could say that the mention of 'stability' would point out who it's for, but it also says the Xcape is for the 'discerning paddler', which can imply experienced. Also, LOTS of manufacturers say their boats are 'stable', even boats that aren't so much/are intended for advanced paddlers.

Then compare the descriptions for the Xtra and Xtreme. Both are described as playboats to some extent, but how the two are different from one another isn't really or immediately clear.

I've actually seen the question asked on other forums about what TR's lineup is and what each boat is intended to do, and the responses were, often enough, "I'm not sure" or sorta/kinda guesses. Perhaps it's less of an issue in the UK where folks are more familiar with TR, but elsewhere, I'm not so sure.

Audi designate their cars as "A" series. BMW as a number series. P&H use star signs. What on earth is negative about using a rather snappy "X" designation - it's certainly very quickly built a strongly recognisable brand in a competitive marketplace.

Well, for one thing, many of Audi's A series and BMW's 'number' series cars have been around for decades. Given that much time (and also, that much advertising), you eventually figure out what and who each is for.

Tiderace, meanwhile, is a very young company, founded I think 4 years ago, and it's only had a pretty wide range of models in the past two years or so, IIRC.

Also, with BMW's numbering series, it's pretty easy to figure out that the 'higher the number, the fancier/larger/more powerful/more expensive' the car (and Audi does go 'A1', 'A3', 'A6', etc as well). But what does 'X' in front of every kayak mean, in terms of differentiating it from all the other 'X' boats? Nothing.

On the plus side, I agree that 'X' is sort of 'cool' sounding, and gives a 'futuristic feel', at least here in the US (many experimental Air Force and NASA planes begin with an 'X' designation, like the X-15 or X-33). But as a differentiator between models, well, it doesn't do that, rather it makes all the models similar-sounding.

Taking the discussion a stage further, I'd suggest that one of the key factors for any mainstream manufacturer in todays market is to offer a range of boats, in a range of sizes. That situation has improved notably in the past 5 years, and the ability to choose a boat type, and then actually get one that fits properly, really is a quantum leap forward. Not a leap that every mainstream manufacturer has made in a coherent, structured way either.

I would agree with all that.

As to the market being predominantly "older" people, I'm not 100% behind this although I would agree that many sea paddlers are indeed more mature in years. That the sport requires time may be part of this. Disappearing for a weekend, or even a day's paddling, calls for time, something which might be more difficult for someone with a family. Then there is also the little matter of where do you store 18' of sea kayak, not to mention the ability to move the thing around the countryside - so transport is essential. Again, perhaps there may be a bias to a more established , older person, as a result.

That said, if we look at the large number of what we might term "sporty models", intended for "playing", then that surely suggests a focus on those folk who may, perhaps, be younger than the inaccurate perception that most sea paddlers are "old blokes".

Well, again Jim, no one said that "most sea paddlers are old blokes". What *was* said was that many are middle-aged and old, and that there's doesn't seem to be enough youngsters coming up.

You yourself lend accurate support to that, in mentioning the transport and storage issues... young ppl, who on average tend to have less money and are perhaps more likely to live in high-density urban areas, also tend to have smaller cars (sometimes no car) and smaller domiciles. In my 20s and 30s, I definitely rented many an apartment that had no place to store a sea kayak.

I do agree with your excellent point that the energetic 'play boat' category does appeal to the younger, more athletic, more thrill-seeking paddler, and has the additional virtue for them of often being a cheaper rotomolded boat.

It is one of the reasons for optimism for the industry, I think, though I'm not certain it's enough all by itself.

...

[Mark R]

I understand that these folk outsell all of the others by a country mile...

http://www.oceankayak.com/

[MarineMammal]

The 4 categories [Aled mentions] I don't consider quite so clear cut. There are traditional inuit style boats that work as dayboats/playboats and others that work as expedition boats - to me these are a subcategory within :-)

To be fair to Aled, he did also mention that there was some overlap between the 4 categories he cited, and specifically pointed out the 'boundary blurring' that's been happening between expedition boats and racing boats of late.

...

[MarineMammal]

I understand that these folk outsell all of the others by a country mile...

http://www.oceankayak.com/

And not a true sea kayak in the bunch...

Bad thing? Good thing? I dunno.

...

[Jim]

...the importance of a PE boat being missing and the circa £1000-£1300 price point gaping in the model line up

I'm not sure I follow the significance of having a range of boats without gaps, for the sea kayak market. A range is good if you're selling on brand loyalty, but I don't think many people buy on that basis. I bought a Rockpool GT last year, and 20 years before that I bought a Vyneck from Pure Perfection Custom (aka Howard Jeffs) - I don't buy boats often enough for branding to be relevant. I just look at the boats on the market when I want to buy one, look at the philosophy of the builders and designers and decide what fits my needs. A continuous or complete range has no relevance at all, to me.

Chris

Chris, I think you are in a similar situation to me with my ignorance of the boat categories, we have our own particular view of sea kayaking (which is pretty much all encompassing, but we do it all from the one boat) but have kind of missed the way sea paddlers have started to specialise - whether that means paddlers owning more than 1 boat to facilitate paddling multiple specialisations or if it means paddlers who only specialise in one area I am unsure.

One of the reasons I went for the Taran was that it looks pretty specialised, but feels like a good boat for everything (except maybe a complete beginner), my rudder has taken a few knocks in the raised position whilst I explore rocky channels and tunnels and stuff, I use it for day paddling (admittedly most of the group deploy sails if it's windy so I need the easy speed), I have used it for racing (and will use it for Seaquest on Sunday) in fact the only thing I haven't yet done with it, is the main reason I chose it and the main type of paddling I used to do before - camping trips (mainly due to weather and group commitments at Easter which reduced us to a couple of day trips instead).

Or to put it another way, what the likes of us need may not be representative of the market, and thus not representative of what manufacturers need to try and cover for maximum competitiveness. Starting to feel like a dinosaur!