St David's rescue^

[Mark R]

I was still focussed & not evan slightly bothered about carrying on

You're still not really getting this, are you?

I'm sure you were still fired up and undismayed by all that had gone wrong on day one, nothing wrong with that.

But those folk running the course had already failed you and your fellow paddlers in their most basic duty - to run a safe and controlled assessment. And the glaring irony of course, was that the course assessors were still happy to assess others (such as yourself) on their ability to run safe and controlled trips.

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

I was comfortable in the conditions so maybe, just maybe everyone is forming there own ideas of the conditions because one member of our group was not comfortable.

Did you speak with the guy later? What was his take? Did he enjoy himself or was he put off for life?

I think you're right about everyone forming their own ideas of the conditions. Some people are looking at those pics thinking "hells teeth, that's the water of nightmares" others are looking at them, scratching their heads wondering why you didn't just get back in and paddle round the point to meet up with your pals.

I get that broken nose guy and, probably empty boat were holding you back but, if it'd just been you and the other three, with no empty boat. Would you have launched? Would you even have landed in the first place?

I would suggest that to be able to safely lead groups, you should have significant experience and comfort with more challenging conditions than those you'd normally choose to lead groups in.

Could probably replace whole pages of guideline notes with just that one succinct statement. Well said Mark!

[budgester]

What with the 5* being a leadership award and not a coaching award, I wonder how much Leadership training is involved or assessed.

In my view leadership is a really difficult thing to quantify, the course organisers changed the location to something more challenging, thus over-riding the "leadership" decision taken by the candidates when they planned their own trip in less committing waters, unless the candidates chosen trip was dangerous, should not they been allowed to execute what they have planned and then be assessed on it? As this is surely what they are doing the course for.

Can you plan and lead a trip and keep people safe ?

Within the less committing waters, more scenarios could have been created to test and see how people lead within a group and how they manage a situation.

[ruralweb]

Hi Taran,
Im pretty new to this sea kayaking lark however I have great experience in leading and assessing other similar activities eg ski mountaineering, paragliding, sub aqua diving and some high risk military stuff. IMO you did nothing wrong at all - you planned a paddle for an assessment BUT the assessor did not allow you to carry it out. Yes as you say it was on the safe side but you should have been allowed to carry it out - if it was not up to scratch then you would have failed and have to do it again which would have been fair.

IMO the assessor was wrong to do what he did and failed to ensure the safety of the group - a 5* assessor should have all the bases covered and plan on the worst case with lots of get outs, shore watch etc - its not up to the student.

Ask for your money back and get another assessor on the case.

PS I read your blog and find it a great inspiration so please keep writing and taking lots of pictures.

[Douglas Wilcox]

There is a world of difference between the locations chosen for the 5* assessment on Skye that windy day in 2005 and Taran's experience on St David's Head.

These are Taran's photos:




This is the RNLI photo


In comparison: the original plan in Skye involved going round the Point of Sleat but because of the wind (which was forecast NW 5 to 7 increasing 8 for a time later) it was relocated to the NW end of Kyle Akin. On open water conditions on the day looked similar to Taran's photos.

I don't have any photos on open water as Callum McKerral (the canditate I was guinea pigging for) showed leadership by telling me to put my camera away in case I fell in, so I obeyed. But I do have some sheltered water photos:





I also have my GPS track:

This could have been a lovely summer pootle but I found it pretty testing on the day. The conditions round the outer reefs were very rough. As you can see the environment chosen for the day in Skye provided the

Testing Conditions/ Low Consequences'

referred to by Mark above. In contrast, St David's head does not offer escape options and so has high consequences in the windy conditions of Taran's assessment.

It is interesting that in similar wind conditions, two BCU 5* assessors chose venues with very different levels of commitment.

Douglas

[tg]

Am I the only one with a different slant on this....

... surely the Candidate is the Leader.

The incident happened on a 5 star assessment......was attending.

Leadership Course?

One of the Guinea Pigs was struggling a bit with the conditions & had capsized a few times which were quickly sorted

out.

Decision time?

... it was decided that he should paddle into

By whom?

... he had a boatful of water but unfortunately he capsized again ....

Why?

Just prior to this I was told ...

Once people start telling you what to do you are no longer the Leader. Game over.

..... before we were able to reach the coast guard. In the back of our minds was whether the other group were trying

to contact the coast...

They would've been worried I am sure.

......decided to take the offer of a lift from the coastguard .....

I'm not sure the RNLI (if it was such) would wave a happy 'Good bye, and good luck', once called.

This 5* mulllarky is a bit of a game eh? My understanding is that the Candidate is the Leader on this particular course so

looking over your shoulder would be a no, no, I would guess.

From this distance, and I appreciate the distance, it looks to me as if the assessor let things go to a point, and with

unfortunate further complications, the scenario deteriorated into one where the services had to be involved. I would'n't

place all the blame on them. Par for the course, isn't it?

'Could happen to any of us'; I've read that many times on here.

Would be nice to get a different perspective.

... shoot me.

[Taran Tyla]

Am I the only one with a different slant on this....

... surely the Candidate is the Leader.

The incident happened on a 5 star assessment......was attending.

Leadership Course?

One of the Guinea Pigs was struggling a bit with the conditions & had capsized a few times which were quickly sorted

out.

Decision time?

... it was decided that he should paddle into

By whom?

... he had a boatful of water but unfortunately he capsized again ....

Why?

Just prior to this I was told ...

Once people start telling you what to do you are no longer the Leader. Game over.

..... before we were able to reach the coast guard. In the back of our minds was whether the other group were trying

to contact the coast...

They would've been worried I am sure.

......decided to take the offer of a lift from the coastguard .....

I'm not sure the RNLI (if it was such) would wave a happy 'Good bye, and good luck', once called.

This 5* mulllarky is a bit of a game eh? My understanding is that the Candidate is the Leader on this particular course so

looking over your shoulder would be a no, no, I would guess.

From this distance, and I appreciate the distance, it looks to me as if the assessor let things go to a point, and with

unfortunate further complications, the scenario deteriorated into one where the services had to be involved. I would'n't

place all the blame on them. Par for the course, isn't it?

'Could happen to any of us'; I've read that many times on here.

Would be nice to get a different perspective.

... shoot me.

Some fair points there, maybe I'm wrong but I assume the role of the guinea pig unless I'm asked to assist or take over the lead. It wasn't my turn leading at this time so I followed orders.

[ruralweb]

surely the Candidate is the Leader

I agree totally but he was not allowed to lead so as you say GAME OVER

The assessor however has overall responsibility for anything that happens on the day - the candidate should be allowed to do what ever they feel is correct but once it goes wrong the assessor steps in and takes control. The candidate fails and everyone moves on.

[ruralweb]

It wasn't my turn leading at this time so I followed orders

Exactly how it should be IMO - keep well out of the way and let others be assessed.

[Jim]

Hi Jim, having had time to ponder the situation in bed last night I realise that we should have either not taken the weakest paddler with us or insisted on a change of venue suitable to his own skills. This is easy to say in hindsight but much harder to realise in reality. I didn't get a chance to lead on the first day so it wasn't my call to make though in all honesty I would have taken him if it was my decision.
Having experienced this now I will have some tough decisions to make in future when taking groups out in future.

Well I'm convinced you have at least started to learn what you needed to as a result of it so I'll say no more in that respect.
It's an expensive way to learn so try and get the most you can out of it.

Jim

[ruralweb]

Having experienced this now I will have some tough decisions to make in future when taking groups out in future

Most groups have differing abilities and you will never keep them all 100% happy so don't be led on by the most vocal in the group - the ones that are least happy will keep quiet and agree with whatever is planned. As mentioned earlier there is no shame in changing the plan 10 minutes after leaving the beach because you spot the quiet paddler having problems.

[Taran Tyla]

Having experienced this now I will have some tough decisions to make in future when taking groups out in future

Most groups have differing abilities and you will never keep them all 100% happy so don't be led on by the most vocal in the group - the ones that are least happy will keep quiet and agree with whatever is planned. As mentioned earlier there is no shame in changing the plan 10 minutes after leaving the beach because you spot the quiet paddler having problems.

To be fair I've changed plenty of trips with my local club members for there safety as well as my own. The question is & has been answered by the events on Thursday as to how far you push it on a 5 star assessment. To the abilities of the weakest paddler.

[ruralweb]

how far you push it on a 5 star assessment

Sounds like your original plan was better suited to the ability of the weakest paddler and the assessor failed to take this into consideration.

I remember when I was doing the instructor assessment for paragliding and the assessor deliberately set things up so that had I carried out the exercise in the prevailing weather conditions it would have been dangerous - I cancelled the exercise and passed the assessment.

[sleepybubble]

Finally I get an excuse to slip my pictures of a Five Star training into a thread without scarring people for life. That same safe venue that Douglas mentions.

can go from this ....



to this....



in the blink of an eye, and yet actually be quite easy to escape from if needs be.

and whilst some folk were paddling in survival mode....



Others just took it in as a normal day, and were messing around at the back of the group taking pictures and surfing. Both the venues used on that course were chosen for their escape routes, prevailing conditions, access to external comms if necessitated etc etc.

You can have your cake and eat it without choking on it.

Mark

some other pictures in this facebook album here for the curious. I don't take nice pictures like Douglas, I don't tend to get my camara out until it gets funny.

[Jim]

Am I the only one with a different slant on this....

... surely the Candidate is the Leader.

Yes, and in the same way a driving test examiner (in a dual control car) will use the brake pedal to prevent you hitting a bin lorry (my brothers failed his first test this way) ending the test and failing you, I think most of us, rightly or wrongly, would expect a 5* examiner to abort a trip before one of the volunteers ends up swimming a couple of km of whitewater.

As it is, we actually have no knowledge of what the assessor was thinking and planning and we don't know if he was hours too late stepping in or just a few seconds too late - which is why Douglas says the events should be reviewed by his peers.

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

As it is, we actually have no knowledge of what the assessor was thinking and planning and we don't know if he was hours too late stepping in or just a few seconds too late - which is why Douglas says the events should be reviewed by his peers.

We have to consider this, otherwise it's trial by t'internet. I always assume it's nearer the seconds thing myself, stops me getting over judgemental and shit. I mean, hey, if someone screwed up and that's what it turns out happened then I'm cool with that but what I don't do is automatically assume, based on the fact that a helicopter turned up, that someone's head needs nailed to a spike or anything.

The actual rescue sounds pretty well executed, given that xxxxx happened, effectively making reuniting the swimmer with his boat impossible, somebody got him up on the deck and landed him on the shore, you've seen the rip hanging off that headland in the photos - regardless of who was to blame for him being there in the first place, that's a solid bit of paddling.

[Dave Thomas]

Not actually the headland illustrated earlier in the thread (which was Strumble Head,further north and east)- but St Davids Head can form an equally chunky race in the right conditions (which largely prevailed at the time of the incident - the only missing factor presumably being wind against tide).

[Kayaks'N'Beer]

Was referring to this one

Can't see what's happening round the corner but I've no reason to expect it was easy going.

[Jack Sound]

Hi

I am a RNLI lifeboat crew member of the other station in St Brides bay, and a keen Sea Kayaker with a love for the rough stuff. I make no judgements about this event as I think people have made their point!
I would like to mention a few things.
There are a few posts from this topic and the Strumble head topic that imply because a mayday wasn't issued that it somehow doesn't count.
Whether emergency services are called because of a mayday or as more of a precaution, it still costs around £8,000 to £10,000 an hour for a RAF sea king helicopter, and the volunteer RNLI crews still have to drop everything to respond - food for thought.

I must emphasize however that outside help must always be sort, if things start going wrong - they can always be stood down if a situation improves.
The coastguard provide a very good service, but there are a few limitations worth knowing. Firstly the St Davids VHF aerial is not Milford Haven CG's main aerial, and because of this it must be manually switched over. We find when we first call them up from the inshore lifeboat reception is poor, but improves when they switch over to St Davids.
Secondly, the CG use a complex software program to estimate where different objects will be moved by the tide,and this is accurate in open water. However it cannot cope with the complexities of tide at places like Skomer and Ramsay Island, and can give wrong results - this is why I have an epirb.

I was aware that St Davids were involved in a shout (the term we use for a call out) because the Coxswain of St Davids was due to come down to our station to deliver and demonstrate a new type of lifejacket. His time of arrival kept getting pushed back, but when he arrived I was able to chat to him about the shout.
Bearing in mind he is the Coxswain of what is regarded within the RNLI as one of the more severe of its stations, he described the shout as "a good one" which tells me all I need to know.

Happy Paddling

Ben

[journeyman]

Whether emergency services are called because of a mayday or as more of a precaution, it still costs around £8,000 to £10,000 an hour for a RAF sea king helicopter

Ben, on the general note of costs, am I correct in understanding that the pilots of the sea kings log these flight times against their flying hours which they need to do on a daily basis, flying hours (cost) that would occur whether or not they were used for for a shout?

[Dave Thomas]

Was referring to this one. Can't see what's happening round the corner but I've no reason to expect it was easy going.

Ah, sorry! Yes, that photo, while not actually showing an area where I would expect a significant race as opposed to an increasing tidal flow - I would expect the confused breaking wavetrain to develop further to the west (left of the photo) ie nearer to the headland itself - does illustrate the general weather-induced conditions rather well.

[Douglas Wilcox]

Hi Dave I don't know if it makes any difference but in Scotland rescue helicopters are operated not just by the RAF but by the RN and by private company contracted by the MCA.

Anyay I think cost is the least important issue. After I called 999 to launch a rescue I felt guilty and ashamed that I had put rescuers' lives at risk as a result of my adrenalin seeking fun and pushing it to the limit. As an RNLI volunteer Ben has been very moderate in saying

volunteer RNLI crews still have to drop everything to respond

as his response to several comments through the St David's thread and the Strumble thread that implied that it was no big deal to call the coastguard as no one really needed rescued and the services were there to rescue us when we need help anyway.

The crews do more than "drop everything" - they risk their lives. It was a real wake up call to me that I had risked other peoples' lives as a result of my behaviour and attitude to risk at sea. I made a mistake but I learned from it and altered my behaviour. I can't think of anything worse than having to call the rescue services a second time (though if the situation required it I would have no hesitation in doing so). The attitude in both these threads, that these weren't really rescues frankly amazes me, as does the "carry on and pretend that nothing happened" attitude displayed by the professionals in this case. As I said before, I hope there will be some kind of BCU investigation of incidents like these that involve professionals. If professionals give the impression that it is routine to call emergency services, what message does that send to youngsters just entering sea kayaking? Thank goodness for an open forum like this so that at least we can let the rescue services know that not all sea kayakers feel like that.

It is not normal to call the rescue services. I have done it once and I know.

Ben thank you and your colleagues for being volunteers and being prepared to risk your lives. As part of my trying to make amends for risking lives after my 999, I became a RNLI governor supporter and I certainly won't forget you guys when I'm gone. I know very many sea kayakers support the RNLI. I hope all do.

Douglas

[Dave Thomas]

Hi Douglas. While I entirely agree with your sentiment, can I just clarify for the record that it was 'Journeyman', not me, you were replying to!

[Douglas Wilcox]

Whoops, sorry Dave and Journeyman!

Douglas

[PhilAyr]

Douglas Wilcox said ~

The attitude in both these threads, that these weren't really rescues frankly amazes me, as does the "carry on and pretend that nothing happened" attitude displayed by the professionals in this case. As I said before, I hope there will be some kind of BCU investigation of incidents like these that involve professionals. If professionals give the impression that it is routine to call emergency services, what message does that send to youngsters just entering sea kayaking? Thank goodness for an open forum like this so that at least we can let the rescue services know that not all sea kayakers feel like that.

It is not normal to call the rescue services. I have done it once and I know.

Douglas I agree entirely. The questions is though, will something be done about it by the BCU, or will it just be ignored and swept under the carpet ?

Phil

[CCL]

Douglas,

Your point about the safety and well being of crew members is important.

I am aware that (many, many) years ago (I might have been about half my age then!), in sporty conditions which then became much more serious, the lifeboat was launched to rescue kayakers/spectators in Ramsey Sound (not me, but I had the hairiest crossing back to St Justinian's of my life)

If I recall correctly, one crew member sustained a hand injury and another fractured a lower limb/pelvis? The conditions were very rough in the sound and yes the situation/kayakers was under control whilst over near the island but crossing back was truly treacherous and escalating. So yes, it was a proper 'shout', however you wish to define it.

Later that evening, and the next day, was subdued....all those involved directly and indirectly were reflecting on the wellbeing of the crew members who were injured and the impact of this on their home/family life, their job, their availability as crew in the future and most importantly their long term health. Yes, these guys (and girls) are volunteers but surely it is our responsibility to avoid needing to call them out?

I learnt a couple of things that day:
1. it is foolhardy indeed to be optimistic about any weather and when it will arrive - it was forecast, it did arrive and sooner than expected
2. I very much relied on local knowledge/leadership that day - if they had not been there/leading, then I would not have gone out...perhaps I should have made my own decision anyway and not 'gone with the crowd'.
3. Local knowledge/familiarity is key, but perhaps being very local can make one a little complacent?

I still love that whole area...and visit/paddle there as much as I can :)
Claire

[CharlieS]

Nervously venturing something to say; I feel much less well placed than most.
I'm not very good at puzzles ('Given that the assessor we're talking about has...') so this might just be experience of a totally different person or it might be experience of the same person in the same area.

I was the least able member (by some comical distance) of a 5 star training course down there not so long ago. A few things stand out in my memory.

1. I was very well cared for by the course provider and the other members of the group.
e.g. We planned a section of paddling against tidal flows of 2/3 knots and I was asked repeatedly & variously whether I would be OK. This was in the shed with all the maps before we got changed, before we drove to a launch point. I would have felt fine saying I wasn't happy, and had to promise them (nearly on my knees) that I paddled against worse all the time on the Thames & it was just the next day in the Bitches where I was probably going to get shown up.
e.g. The next day I did indeed fall in fairly often during a very safely conducted session on the Bitches. I hope I was a useful muppet for them to practice rescues on (though I suspect I was a bit in the way too). Great use was made of conditions that were testing me with low consequences (the huge eddies either side, lots of well positioned cover, buddying etc).

2. The overriding impression left on me was of cautious, conservative decision making and leading.
e.g. On the first day sea and wind conditions were almost 0, it was sunny and clear so I asked the provider up to what conditions would he take people like us on the trip we had planned (round Ramsey, and taking in as many Bishops and Clerks as we could paddle hard enough/get the angles right to get to). I don't know what I expected but certainly not, 'these conditions only. No more than this.' which is what he replied. I imagine others here would take people like me out on that trip in bigger conditions than that.
e.g. The model of leading we were taught involved stopping before every crinckle, and rock (let alone headland) for a discussion, a plan and checking everyone was OK to continue. Most of the people on the course were professional (4star) trip leaders and this was clearly their normal way of leading a trip. As a club paddler/ mates paddler it made me think that if I treated my groups like that they'd probably push me in themselves. (On a serious note it was that course that made me reflect strongly on tightening up what I do when I'm leading club trips, and just not taking the people who'd complain about over-caution.)

That's not to excuse anything that happened on Taran's assessment. I wasn't there; I'm not good at assessing sea conditions from a photo; I really don't know anything about it.

I do think it's useful to think about what has happened to other people so as to learn preventative lessons (I really like the suggestion of putting a walker with a VHF on the headland if there's a risk of separation and communication problems. That seems cheap & easy & practical to me.) So I'm grateful to Taran for posting the report.

I do think professional course providers should have some sort of review after serious incidents as Douglas is suggesting. I assume that some people here must know the individual quite well. Someone could ring them and ask if such a review is happening, or if they regard the RNLI as 'safety boat' for their courses. That wasn't my impression at all, but who knows if I've even guessed the right person.

Charlie

[SWPaddler]

When asking whether the BCU might look into the number of rescues, one committee which might do so is the Sea Touring Committee. But then we find that it appears not to have any elections, published minutes etc. Perhaps we need to push the BCU / CE into getting its committees in order so that they do have annual elections, AGMs etc.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=88430

[Douglas Wilcox]

Charlie what you have described was my experience of guinea pigging on a 5* assessment in Skye, I felt excited but safe.

SWPaddler You have raised a very good point. At the moment doctors self regulate through peer review and the General Medical Council though the government could review that if it was felt that a good job was not being done. I hope the BCU is strong enough and carries enough respect to provide self regulation of the coaching profession.

I know nothing about marine law but what would happen if a professional boat operator such as a seal boat or one of those RIBS that goes through the Correvreckan lost a passenger overboard and had to call the rescue services? Are there any parallels with professional coaches or guides? I don't know.

Douglas

[Mark R]

My assumption of who the course provider/ assessor was has only come from Googling '5 star sea assessment Pembrokeshire April', as I assume hundreds of other folk have also done this week. I have no specific knowledge.