P&H Cetus HV or NDK Explorer HV

[andymc131179]

Hi

I wonder if any of you out there have a view.

I am not new to paddling but I am new to sea kayaking its time to buy a boat.

I am 110kg and 6foot4 looking at a boat to coach from, day tip and expedition, currently my favourites are between the Nigel Dennis Explorer HV and the P&H Cetus HV.

Can I canvas peoples opinions, any pro's and con's to the above, is there others I should be looking at.

Many thanks in advance for all your advice.

Andy Mc

[MikeB]

Both are well respected boats, both of which I've paddled and I'm about your weight albeit 6'2". I found the NDK uncomfortable - the Cetus was nice, but in reality I was too big for it. There are well documented build / quality problems with some NDK boats - and certainly some of the early Cetus's had skeg control issues although this is probably now sorted.

I know Mark R paddles a Cetus and he's about your height, but lighter I think. He seems to like it but when I paddled one I wondered whether it would carry the same load as the Quest I paddled until recently. That might be worth a look at too.

Having changed to a Tiderace Xcape X last summer, I really am impressed with it in terms of speed, load carrying ability, sea keeping ability and general comfort. It's the first boat I've ever really had enough room in, in the cockpit. The thigh braces are superb and certanily better than most of the composite competition.

So there's another range to consider. Mike.

[Mark R]

I wondered whether it would carry the same load as the Quest

Cetus HV has significantly more storage capacity than a Quest.

[MikeB]

I wondered whether it would carry the same load as the Quest

Cetus HV has significantly more storage capacity than a Quest.

Hmm - now I'm wondering if I was in the HV - - perhaps not.

Vols: Front / Day / Rear / Overall.
Quest: 55.6 / 34.4 / 70.8 /365
Cetus MV (the original one - must have been the one I tried?): 61.5 / 30 / 71.4 / 332
Cetus HV: 68.5 / 36.8 / 77.3 / 379
XcapeX: 99 / 47 / 85 / 406

I've not bothered including the foredeck chocolate bar holder.

Mike.

[Mark R]

However...the Cetus HV cockpit area is less roomy, with a lower and flatter deck than the Quest.

[MikeB]

However...the Cetus HV cockpit area is less roomy, with a lower and flatter deck than the Quest.

And the choc bar holder is bigger than the Xcape's, but gets in the way of those of us with large feet. At least the one I tried did - and it seems it must have been the MV version.

[Douglas Wilcox]

Here is the Cetus MV with a Quest and Quest LV in the background.

This was on a 5 day camping trip round Arran and it took all necessary supplies, 13 cans of Guinness, bags of barbeque charcoal, lots of firewood etc but the trolley had to fit on the back deck. This Cetus MV has the shorter fore hatch so someone with short legs like me can get my feet round the front of it.

I had a loan of the Cetus HV for several camping trips. There was so much space you didn't need to think to pack. The MV requires a bit more thought but basically took exactly the same stuff as the HV, (this MV has a custom bulkhead which gives more room up front). I like the Cetus MV a lot. Mike (who was in the yellow Quest) had a shot in it and ordered one as soon as we got home.

Douglas

[gethroberts]

There are well documented build / quality problems with some NDK boats - and certainly some of the early Cetus's had skeg control issues although this is probably now sorted.

The build quality of NDK boats is superb these days and has been in all their boats that I have paddled since 2008. Visit the factory some time to check out their excellent quality control and customer care! It seems wrong to perpetuate old criticisms of a company that is producing such good products, especially whilst giving the benefit of doubt to another company.

I have been test driving many sea kayaks recently, with a view to replacing my Explorer HV. At 6'5" tall I've been surprised to find that no boats fit or suit me as well as the Explorer HV and Romany Surf do. The Tiderace Excite, Extra and Explore boats are unfortunately too small for my legs. Incidently, a friend of mine who is 6'4" gets on very well with his Tiderace Excite. I'd love to try an NDK HV/Surf sized cockpit on a Tiderace or a Valley Etain kayak. However, I can't say I'm remotely disappointed with the NDK hulls' performance in the slightest.

Andy Mc - Don't be put off by ungenerous comments about boats or manufacturers, especially when they are based on outdated criticisms, and keep an open mind whilst trying lots of different boats out.

Enjoy your shopping,

Geth.

[MikeB]

There are well documented build / quality problems with some NDK boats - and certainly some of the early Cetus's had skeg control issues although this is probably now sorted.

The build quality of NDK boats is superb these days and has been in all their boats that I have paddled since 2008. Visit the factory some time to check out their excellent quality control and customer care! It seems wrong to perpetuate old criticisms of a company that is producing such good products, especially whilst giving the benefit of doubt to another company.

Indeed so - and its nice that they're getting a handle on things. The key word was of course "some" - one new example of which was described to me in spring of 2010 as "requiring some work, but you expect that". And in truth, the Quest which everyone raves about had issues revolving round leaking hatches - and even my shiny Xcape has required very minor work involving a blob of Araldite to deal with a small leak at (yes!) the skeg box. The Cetus skeg problem is documented as being resolved however.

Now. Whether these are old criticisms or objective comment is debateable of course. Other than the one Explorer I've mentioned (and the paddler was of sufficiently high profile in the paddling world that one would expect he'd be supplied with a pristine boat), I dont know anyone else who's bought a new NDK recently. There are lots of brand new T/races, N/shores, VAlleys and P&H's that I've seen - but maybe the folk up here are just choosing differntly. And of course, the OP may not be buying a brand new boat.

I have been test driving many sea kayaks recently, with a view to replacing my Explorer HV. At 6'5" tall I've been surprised to find that no boats fit or suit me as well as the Explorer HV and Romany Surf do. The Tiderace Excite, Extra and Explore boats are unfortunately too small for my legs. Incidently, a friend of mine who is 6'4" gets on very well with his Tiderace Excite. I'd love to try an NDK HV/Surf sized cockpit on a Tiderace or a Valley Etain kayak. However, I can't say I'm remotely disappointed with the NDK hulls' performance in the slightest.

You need to try the X versions Geth. A standard Xplore cockpit is possibly even smaller than a Quest. The Xplore X is considerably bigger. The Xcape X somewhere in between. The NDK hull is certainly well thought of, and of course it has been around for a while. The other factor of course is the abilty to order a custom fitted bulkhead which may - or may not - help you and the OP.

Andy Mc - Don't be put off by ungenerous comments about boats or manufacturers, especially when they are based on outdated criticisms, and keep an open mind whilst trying lots of different boats out.

Quite. There are some excellent modern and innovative designs, and such a massive range of choices these days. It's interesting to see how competition is effecting the market, and which manufacturers are producing new designs to reflect the changes in the marketplace. The difference between "ungenerous" and "objective" may be relevant - or not. Mike.

[Lock and Load]

simply the cetus as the more storage, faster and modern plus the explorer is now a old school boat. Move with the times

[nickcrowhurst]

The result of 6 month's of polling by Sea Kayaker magazine for the best extended touring kayak, FWIW, :

http://www.seakayakermag.com/2012/Jan12 ... choice.htm

Nick.

[Fast Pat]

The result of 6 month's of polling by Sea Kayaker magazine for the best extended touring kayak, FWIW, :

http://www.seakayakermag.com/2012/Jan12 ... choice.htm

Nick.

Interesting, but probably more of a reflection of NDK market penetration than a true reflection of the models performance, also a heavy US slant in the other products reviewed - understandably.

I also have reservations about owners reviews and rankings in any area - no one wants to admit they bought a pup!

[No Kayak]

Shortly before the recession hit season of 2009, NDK dealers in the States were saturated with boats. I was speaking to dealers in 2011 who still had plenty NDK boats hanging around from that time, discounted, that were not moving. In other words, there is a lot of saturation of NDK boats in the States.

Additionally, Nigel has always done a great job at nurturing relationships with key tend-setting personalities in the US sea kayaking scene. People who go and see the best regarded specialists will often be exposed to NDK product in the first instance. That NDK have managed with much the same product line up and a reputation for questionable QC for such a long time is huge credit to Nigel's efforts.

With regards to the NDK products- like many other boats on the market, they have their place. Whether it's the preferred choice for a paddler will depend mainly on subjective fit and feel above anything else. If I was in the market, considering my own personal impressions and experience of their respective boats, I'd expect the P&H product to be a similar weight, maybe slightly lighter than the NDK, finished perhaps to a slightly better standard though maybe not as durable as the NDK layup. The NDK would benefit from being less money, particularly if you were to roll up to the factory with some pound notes. :)

[geoffm]

plus the explorer is now a old school boat. Move with the times

I have an Alaw Bach, a Rockpool GT and an Explorer HV so I guess I have experience of "modern boats" The Explorer is still a beautiful boat to paddle. The above quote is obviously written by someone that hasn't paddled an Explorer.

No Kayaks suggestion that clever marketing has aided the penetration of SeakayakingUK boats into the American market doesn't ring true. I know a few coaches in the US whose judgement I respect completely that paddle NDK boats by choice. There is no way that they would paddle them if they didn't consider them a top level kayak.