Is something wrong at Valley...

Sea Kayaking

Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby No Kayak » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:43 pm

Mark R wrote:
No Kayak wrote:My personal opinions are purely my own and do not and should not be classed as representing those of any former employer.


And yet...you've now taken an anonymous pop on this forum against every major manufacturer...except the one you were associated with.


That is an out and out lie.


Mark R wrote:My feelings on folk criticising named individuals without admitting to their own agenda/ commercial connections? Rather stronger. But I've made my feeling pretty clear by now, I have nothing more to add.


Any agenda you say I have is purely the work of your over-active imagination.

orton1966 wrote:Yes, Happy New Year from all at Valley.
The New Website is going live latter today (11/01/2010), I know for many including ourselves, this has been too long in coming but at last here we are. Whilst the site will now be live we are still in the process of populating some areas, so if you find a page isn’t working or something is factually incorrect please come back in a few days, when hopefully things will have changed.

So what’s new! Generally the intension is that this website will be more dynamic with information beyond a mere electronic catalogue. There is a news section where we will be posting the latest Valley and also general sea-kayak related stories. On a more personal level we are going to be incorporating some Blog entries from our friends active in the planning fraternity. Additionally we are adding some downloadable items, including a copy of the original Nordkapp Expedition report, from 1975, in sea kayaking terms this is a historic document with feedback that directly led to the finalisation of the Nordkapp design.

So for now enjoy the site but please appreciate certain content will be added and edited over the next couple of weeks, the aim being to have all areas populated and functional by the end of January. On a final note, anyone with images that might be good for the gallery section, these would be very much appreciated. Also if you spot an image, on our site, that you feel should be credited to yourself or that you feel should not be on our site please contact us and we’ll respect your wishes


So what happened in the intervening 2 years?
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby bobt » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:08 pm

Oarsome wrote:I have a one man business myself (not boating related), and most of my friends have small businesses too (most are one or two man businesses). Am I harsh? I don't think so. I think of myself as being realistic: You need to get the word out there, and get the word out professionally. Everything else is just excuses, and it just won't fly in the long run. You need to bring in new customers, and you need to give the could-be customers the information they want, the information they use to compare you and your products to the competition.


What's your website look like then?

I had hoped to get out on the river today as a first spring paddle. The ice is mostly off. Then a spring snow storm hit so I'm sitting in and reading this with morbid facination.

As a relative newbie to the sport, an owner of an old Valley Skerray and with a kayaking partner who is willing to go to great lengths to source valley products I may not have a truley valid nor unbiased opinion. But I simply can't see what the fuss is about. If I google valley sea kayaks I get on to a site which is, imho, completely prefessional, if a little incomplete. Hell's teeth, there are some complete shambles out there, and this isn't one of them. It certainly wouldn't put me off buying.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby MikeB » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:32 pm

I've had recent dealings with Valley - not related to buying a boat, but rather them being incredibly helpful with taking a boat in from one of their customers (who was buying a brand new boat from them in fairness), keeping it for a week or so, and then helping in it's onward move to Scotland - thanks are also due to Mike at Northshore here, and of course Valley now own N/shore.

All this done while they were somewhat focussed on getting boats ready for the recent Paddle Fest thing up in Scotland.

So very pleased indeed. It did take a phone call tho, emails dont seem to get actioned. As to the website, no, its possibly not the worlds greatest, but maybe they dont see it as a high priority.

Mike.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Oarsome » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:33 pm

bobt wrote:What's your website look like then?

It looks good.
And, no, I'm not going to link you to it, as I prefer my professional self to be separate from my private person and vice versa.

If I google valley sea kayaks I get on to a site which is, imho, completely prefessional, if a little incomplete. Hell's teeth, there are some complete shambles out there, and this isn't one of them. It certainly wouldn't put me off buying.

It's not about something being a "complete shambles". It's about having a website that is abandoned as your shop front.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby bobt » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:49 pm

Oarsome wrote:
bobt wrote:What's your website look like then?


It looks good.
And, no, I'm not going to link you to it, as I prefer my professional self to be separate from my private person and vice versa.

I wouldn't want you to. That said, how much feedback do your receive and how complex is your product range?

It's not about something being a "complete shambles". It's about having a website that is abandoned as your shop front.


I guess it is a matter of priorities and an understanding of the market. I know that you view the website as the "shop front" but I wonder what the market research would say about seak kayaks and internet shopping? I don't claim to know but I'd guess that a significant proportion of Valley's market is in its repeat customers and in its "word of mouth" referals. So if I had to prioritise then I would concentrate on existing client care. As asmall company, I would imagine that prioritising workload would be an ongoing challenge. I accept that all businesses need to keep an eye on the four key areas of: People, Operations, Marketing and Finance and that they need to be good at all of these in order to be at full steam but it is easy for me to say sitting here in the comfort of my living room.

For the website, the idea that it is simply a case of buying in the expertise is a little nieve. IT professionals (and I've dealt with a few) may not fully understand the concepts, nor have the passion to create a site which "fits" and perhaps the guys at Valley prefer the option of a slow build that is correct, rather than a quick fix.

As an aside, I work for a major company here in Canada whose website still leaves a lot to be desired. This with money and a team of IT professionals on hand.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Oarsome » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:48 pm

bobt wrote:I wouldn't want you to. That said, how much feedback do your receive and how complex is your product range?


I receive feedback every time I deliver. My business is living off customer satisfaction. Is it complex compared to manufacturing and dealing kayaks? You bet it is.

I guess it is a matter of priorities and an understanding of the market. I know that you view the website as the "shop front" but I wonder what the market research would say about seak kayaks and internet shopping? I don't claim to know but I'd guess that a significant proportion of Valley's market is in its repeat customers and in its "word of mouth" referals.

For how long will that work, considering the competition is not relying on repeat customers and word-of-mouth solely? Why even have a shop window if you abandon the shop and rely on people going around to the back door?

So if I had to prioritise then I would concentrate on existing client care.


As a few of us have been saying for quite some time, there's no to prioritize like that. It's a false dichotomy.

As a small company, I would imagine that prioritising workload would be an ongoing challenge.


Of course it is. But as I've been saying all along, you can outsource it and spend a very little time on it to keep it up to date. If you can't be bothered to show your stuff, don't be surprised when they shut down.

I accept that all businesses need to keep an eye on the four key areas of: People, Operations, Marketing and Finance and that they need to be good at all of these in order to be at full steam but it is easy for me to say sitting here in the comfort of my living room.

Updating your website to at least have the current products you offer is the bare minimum. Most of my work comes from word of mouth. However, most of my customers have strolled by my website to see if I could do what they wanted me to do.

For the website, the idea that it is simply a case of buying in the expertise is a little nieve. IT professionals (and I've dealt with a few) may not fully understand the concepts, nor have the passion to create a site which "fits" and perhaps the guys at Valley prefer the option of a slow build that is correct, rather than a quick fix.


What a load of tosh! It's an effing kayak manufacturer, not some advanced site with all sorts of different tie-ins, forums and whatnot. And even if they were going for "slow, but good", that would tell a story in itself: The management aren't able to plan ahead, and they abandon ship before the new one is in the water. That's even worse than anything else.


As an aside, I work for a major company here in Canada whose website still leaves a lot to be desired. This with money and a team of IT professionals on hand.


And again, we're talking of a kayak manufacturer selling a few kayaks. Not a huge company with (for example) Sharepoint needs and whatnot.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby ian the badger » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Nope decided not to join in. I have better stuff going on in my life than joining this pathetic and trivial debate by folk who think a website is the most important thing on the planet.

GET A LIFE.

I'm going boating.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby bobt » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:56 pm

ian the badger wrote:Nope decided not to join in. I have better stuff going on in my life than joining this pathetic and trivial debate by folk who think a website is the most important thing on the planet.

GET A LIFE.

I'm going boating.



And me. I really couldn't care less but was a little bored. It's still snowing so I'm off climbing (inside).
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Oarsome » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:22 pm

ian the badger wrote:Nope decided not to join in. I have better stuff going on in my life than joining this pathetic and trivial debate by folk who think a website is the most important thing on the planet.


No-one said it was the most important thing on the planet. Some of us have this strange capacity to focus on several things in life. Not everything we do, think, or comment on is the most important thing on the planet.

GET A LIFE.


Yes, unlike you who thought you get to decide what is being discussed when and where, and actually care enough to post regarding that.
I'm going boating.



Oh, I have already been out in my boat today. 20 kilometres. That should do it for now.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby No Kayak » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:05 pm

A website just forms part of the marketing effort. Online streams of customer contact would include the company website, then official blogs and social media presence regularly updated. The best example of a sea kayak manufacturer getting this working would currently be P&H, though there are others also doing a very good and improving job, such as Tahe. These add-ons to your traditional online presence can be extremely cheap to set up (ie. the only real cost is in time, as the Wordpress, Facebook and the like are free), and content can be created and managed by on-side paddlers rather than management of the company. There is no excuse these days to avoid engaging with your potential customers online, however small your company.

Valley are very good at travelling around and supporting events on the ground, where they can give very good input to support dealers and their potential consumers. Sadly, as has been pointed out, resources can be tight for small companies and there are only so many hours in the day and places you can be at the same time, so it's a small(ish) return from the effort you put in, with regards to marketing.

Symposiums are often well supported by manufacturers too, Valley included. Sadly, even well known events such as the annual NDK one on Anglesey are attended by only 250 or so people at the most. The Scottish paddling event at Perth only sees 1500 or so paddlers, only a smallish percentage of whom are sea paddlers, yet the cost of attending this event is high.

Advertising in specialist sea kayaking magazines (who themselves have only a small circulation, and print magazine circulation is falling overall) cost several hundred pounds a month to advertise in. The reach is extremely limited and therefore the ROI, in my subjective opinion, is hardly worth it.

The picture I am trying to paint, is that whilst the website and online presence is not the be all and end all, it is the most cost effective way a small company can reach and professionally present to the largest number of people for the smallest amount of cost. As a conservative industry, sea kayaking has been slow to react to changes in consumer buying habits- especially Valley.

At the end of the day, back in 2009 someone felt the need to ask the question that formed this thread. In 2010 Valley responded, and now in 2012 someone needed to ask again.

I am sure Pete and Jason will be fully aware of this thread and the new posts and, hopefully, it will result in consumers being given the opportunity to see what Valley can offer them. It would be a shame if people missed out due to a small part of the marketing process being missing.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby marcusdemuth » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:20 pm

Most pathetic thread in the history of this otherwise great forum.

Mostly negative, backward looking, and mind numbing entries, all written on a perfect paddling day (sunny, little wind) when everyone should surf his or her kayak (and not the web), and with a record number of paddlers paddling around the UK, and many more worthwhile things to chat about and to get excited about.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Oarsome » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:32 pm

marcusdemuth wrote:Most pathetic thread in the history of this otherwise great forum.

Mostly negative, backward looking, and mind numbing entries, all written on a perfect paddling day (sunny, little wind) when everyone should surf his or her kayak (and not the web), and with a record number of paddlers paddling around the UK, and many more worthwhile things to chat about and to get excited about.


Boohoo!

P.S. Not everyone surfs their boats, and not everyone lives in the UK.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby M-J-B » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:25 pm

Oops...

Obviously I tripped on a sensitive issue judging from the highly emotional comments lately.

Some of you who see no problems with the current state of Valley website and marketing seem to attack the criticism quite agressively with exaggerations, personal attacks and attempts to ridicule the whole issue. Surprisingly also the site admin drives the discussion off topic. I could comment many of the recent posts but I choose not to. (Arguing on the Internet... you know.)

But all of this kinda proves a point... Many people believe there is room for improvement in Valley marketing but some Valley fans prefer to shoot the messenger or hide their heads in the bushes rather than admitting the facts. Why? Are you afraid that saying things out loud (things that many are thinking) will suddenly cause a catastrophical avalanche for the company? Business as usual if we all just shut up? If a website is of no importance, why is critism towards a website so horrific?

A website is not a matter of life and death, nor is this site, but marketing is one of the keys to success for companies. A company neglecting the marketing is fading in the long run, a good reputation earned years ago will only get you so far... exitsting loyal customers will not live forever. (And who listens to old farts anyway?) Internet marketing is relatively cheap and effective nowadays. I would like to believe that having the best product is all that matters for a company, but that's not the case.

Why do I care? Because I am a Valley fan!

Back in the days (long before the dawn of Internet) there were only a few players in the kayak industry and the great reputation that Valley built up was certainly earned. Today there are many players on the market and many (old and new) players do agressive marketing that seems to do the trick for them. I know nothing about the economical statuses of the different companies but I would love to see the share of Valley products on the water increase instead of declining. Many relatively new companies produce interesting designs with excellent build quality and materials but I still believe none of them outperform Valley designs (including the old ones).

A couple years ago I was in the market for a new boat and I leaned towards Valley due to my long history with some of their designs. I had the opportunity to thoroughly test the competing designs but the Valley range of kayaks was not available for testing. Luckily I was able to briefly try out a second hand Valley model that was on top of my list. I was interested in a few technical details and accessories as I intended to order a custom built kayak. Price was the least important factor. None of the techical details were mentioned on the Valley website and a Valley brochure I received was badly outdated and therefore unreliable. I contacted three different retailers and received three different answers. I e-mailed Valley... and received nothing in return. I bought a Valley anyway, but without any of the custom options I had planned. I bought it because of my previous experiences with Valley boats and because I believed (and still do) that the Valley hull shape was best suited for my needs. Would I have bought a Valley without previous experience of their designs? No! Would I have bought it because some old beard recommended it? No!

It may well be that I live in a region that Valley considers uninteresting and it may well be that Valley marketing in their key market areas is better than Internet can provide... but I would love to choose my next kayak based on facts instead of gut feeling but sadly that would leave Valley out of the race. The only facts I have to go by regarding Valley is the outstanding design of their older kayaks. Valley build quality has let me down a few times so I would love to read about how they have improved their processes and materials in recent years.

For many years competitors have come and gone with lots of noise but Valley has prevailed, but I'm not sure history will repeat itself without effort. When a company becomes too confident and laid back the competition moves in. I'm not saying Valley is there - yet. I hope Valley will live long and prosper - and that I and many others have plenty of reasons and opportunities to buy their products in the future.

PS. Today I was out in the sunshine and light breeze paddling my Nordlow and I liked it!

PPS. Anonymity - Those who know me recognise my username and writing, those who don't are none the wiser even if I type out my full name. Those who are interested will find my name with a little digging - but still none the wiser.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby rockall » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:27 am

Well said m-j-b, very well said. I was going to respond myself to this thread, but you've hit the nail on the head, really.

A feature of this thread seems to be the brittleness of some of the Valley defenders (I won't call them fans, though they may be). I'm very surprised at the forum admin getting involved, derailing the discussion and forcing the issue of anonymity (does the forum signup ask for our names and addresses, then?..) Mark R, you level the charge of 'anonymous pops' and 'accusing named persons' at No Kayak. You must have insider knowledge of what's going on here, but I couldn't see in this thread that No Kayak made any 'accusation', just some observations, opinions and rather well made comments. Why are you so defensive? As m-j-b suggests, some people seem to be trying to shoot the messenger.

What the messengers (and I'm certainly one of them) are saying is that it IS noticeable to the buying public that Valley are not forthcoming with uptodate information and this has a negative impact on how some people perceive them. And it's not necessarily just Valley - it's any company which neglects its communication with the market. And people are saying this BECAUSE they love Valley! Because they admire the brand and what it stands for, because they want it to succeed. It's constructive criticism. Why are people getting hot under the collar about some helpful suggestions?

It's exceedingly odd to hear that Mark R would sooner get his product details from Googling for Valley (how do you think Valley information first got on Google, Mark?) or going to Facebook rather than the manufacturer's web site. That alone should worry Valley! But perhaps it demonstrates the point - he goes on the internet to find the information. So, QED, any company ignoring its internet communications (info site or social networking) is doing itself a dis-service. It's not necessarily going to fail anytime soon, it just looks slack and may have a negative impact on peoples' purchasing decisions. But bit by bit, incrementally, with busy competition, this eats at a company's good name. As others have pointed out, a web site is not just an information point (though it should contain accurate product information), it IS a shop window and may be the place first impressions are formed and comparisons made. Ignore it at your peril.

I have an old Valley boat (Skerray) and am still attracted to some of the current models. But I am also perfectly aware that my choices are much wider these days, and some of these offerings are pitched at me with much greater intensity and flair.

I do hope that Valley responds positively to this thread if it is watching, because its name, brand and products are still a byword for me and many others. But I, and these others, also realise it is being eroded - not irreparably so, but the thin end of the wedge.

I don't think this is the most pathetic thread ever on this forum. It's not backward looking or negative at all, it's actually quite positive and visionary. Apart from silly comments and diversions from people who seem to have their heads stuck in the sand, or maybe don't have to pay for their boats.

Once again, well said m-j-b, very eloquent.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Mark R » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:36 am

rockall wrote:You must have insider knowledge of what's going on here


Yes. But even without that, read over the posting history yourself.

This site only 'works' and has credibility if people are open, honest and sincere.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby rockall » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:40 am

I'm not here to witch hunt, but reading this thread (which is, to me, the issue) I can't see anything dishonest or insincere, nor anything other than common sense observation and commentary from that poster. But then I don't have insider knowledge...

If you have a problem or feel there is some hidden agenda going on here, why don't you pm the guy and have it out? But don't drag the rest of us into something we don't know about.

The essence of the debate in this thread is that Valley is failing in its marketing communications, a proposition which myself and others believe, sadly, to be true. This would still be the case even without the postings which seem to offend you. So let's debate the proposition and not the person.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby No Kayak » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:47 am

I would far rather companies with British interests (such as Valley, P&H, Tiderace, Rockpool, NDK and others) were successful in the world market, rather than Estonian ones who in my mind have unfairly benefited from EU grants to create an unsustainable situation in the marketplace.

If threads like this get people like Valley and others off their arses a bit more to engage with their customers, then that's a good thing in my eyes.

I sincerely hope this post isn't considered too anonymously unfair on our Estonian friends. ;)
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Kayaks'N'Beer » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:00 pm

I'm a web developer for a living so I know the value of a good website. That said however, I know who valley are, their pedigree and their build quality without having to look at a website. Are they potentially missing trick by not spending a couple of grand on a website? Well, yes probably but that's all it is for a company in their position. If you don't know who valley are then (I'd guess) you are a very small percentage of their customer base. The internet aint the be-all end all and (especially when it comes to buying a kayak) you'd be a few IQ points short of a vegetable if you made a purchasing decision based on how the manufacturers website looks. If I'm buying a boat 99.99999999% of the decision process is based on how it feels to paddle. T'internet aint that good yet.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby EK Sydney » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:35 pm

Estonian ones who in my mind have unfairly benefited from EU grants to create an unsustainable situation in the marketplace.

Knowing these guys pretty well too, that statement just isn't right, again I'm putting it up here because sometimes people read opinions on forums and assume them to be fact. What's being done in Estonia is a very nice story of a successful and smart company who have very strong community roots, not too different to the Valleys of the world, when you look at things objectively. Theyre just a bit bigger and an easy target.
But, I can forgive anyone who mentions beer in their forum persona.....
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby No Kayak » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:35 pm

EK Sydney wrote:Knowing these guys pretty well too, that statement just isn't right, again I'm putting it up here because sometimes people read opinions on forums and assume them to be fact. What's being done in Estonia is a very nice story of a successful and smart company who have very strong community roots, not too different to the Valleys of the world, when you look at things objectively. Theyre just a bit bigger and an easy target.
But, I can forgive anyone who mentions beer in their forum persona.....


Maybe I should have explained myself a little better...

The European Union have a grants facility for businesses within the EU. Within that structure they created country-level tiers to identify nations which would qualify for that grant money. As in the example here, Tahe are in Estonia, which is classed as an under-developed nation in EU grant terms, so as a company they qualify for grants in a way that someone like Valley, based in the UK (which is classed as a top tier developed nation) does not.

So through the grant system, tax payers in the EU (including those from the UK and other developed nations within the boundries who pay a raised amount) help fund growth of companies, such as Tahe, through EU funding (which is unavailable to Valley).

When I describe the situation as 'unfair', I relate it not to the accusation that it is unfair within the general rules of the EU funding model, but that it is unfair so much as other kayak companies who serve the same area of the market and have existed for a long time (such as Valley) cannot take advantage of the same facility (despite contributing to the pot).

Where does the advantage come in?

Firstly, I would not for one second say Tahe have done anything 'wrong'- quite the opposite. They have seen the advantage available and made the absolute most of it. Fair play and let them be a shining beacon of how to turn a small cottage business into the fastest growing enterprise in the industry.

If you imagine, for example, that Estonia has one of the lowest average wages in the EU. When you're building a composite kayak in a 'wealthy' country, your biggest cost (or at least on parity with materials) is your man hours. Generally your materials are specialist and come from a small pool of suppliers, such as cloths, resins, tapes and gelcoats etc. The costs of these are generally (though not exclusively) fixed from kayak manufacturer to kayak manufacturer. In other words, your geographical location does not really have a massive impact on material costs. For labour though, the opposite is true. Hence manufacturers in many specialist industries moving production to specific parts the Far East.

For example, someone making clothing or jewellery in Thailand would be able to do so considerably cheaper than someone doing the same in Australia, if you know what I mean. ;)

Anyway, back to Tahe...

We established labour as being the majority cost (or at least around parity with materials) in building a composite kayak. Seeming Tahe in Estonia are able to take advantage of lower wage costs, their cost of building said kayak is lower. This part is fair enough, as it's just a natural element of business. In real terms, Tahe should be able to pump out kayaks that retail at around 25% less than equivalents from developed countries like the UK, whilst maintaining the same sort of percentage margins as those other manufacturers.

On top of that, the EU funding then gives Tahe facility not only to sell into the market at a lower price (an advantage it naturally enjoys from lower wages), but at an even lower price that would not be sustainable to a business based on the margins being achieved. In addition, that EU funded cashflow then allows the company to sell at a market-unsustainable margin with incredibly generous terms on top of that (such as long invoice due dates of 90+ days, manufacturer supported 25% retail discounts on old stock in the showrooms, low startup retail pricing and help with payment for sending containers to Australia, for example).

As manufacturers and retailers of kayaks, 'we' know the value in the showroom not only of the brand name, but the price at which that product must be sold and the terms at which a dealer can buy it. For example, a Rockpool Alaw might not make sense to import into Australia to retail at more than $4100 AUD with pretty average buying terms, but a Zegul 520 which is as close as it gets to being the same tool is, when around 20% less, with transport costs to Aus thrown in and long payment times.

Of course, any company is entitled to investment from a whole variety of sources outside of grant funding, but as we all know, the last 4 years has seen commercial lending for businesses all but dry up in the Western World. Finances required versus the risk and small reward makes composite kayak production and expansion of it an unattractive commercial proposition for potential lenders outside of the industry.

So in one sense, the well established and well known brands in first world countries, who are typically lightly resourced financially, would have great difficulty in establishing third party commercial investment into the business over the past 4 years to match that enjoyed by Tahe at the tax payer's expense. Tahe's luck has been in acquiring that EU funding at a time when it gave them most bang-for-buck in the market place. It really couldn't have been better.

What will happen going forward, I suspect, is that once Tahe achieve the market share they need, acquired brands that compete with them (don't laugh, Valley could be on that list) and exhausted the EU funded 'flash expansion', they will then revert to increases in the price of their products to give margin where before it was missing. The competition that prevented them from raising in price will more than likely to be too weak to respond or part of Tahe themselves and be repositioned in the market place accordingly.

The job Janek and others are doing at Tahe is a breath of fresh air in many respects and would be an ideal example for people like Valley to follow in engaging with new and potential customers.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby EK Sydney » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:13 pm

No Kayak, remind me not to get into a round with you next time I'm up that way, even if you were buying I reckon I'd be bored sh*tless even I was half pissed.
Nice to have the detail up, however bent instead of the slur, maybe that one should have come first, as you say.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby EK Sydney » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:20 pm

Just sh*t stirring of course, I'll have a beer with anyone who is buying me beer......
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Kayaks'N'Beer » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:31 pm

EK Sydney wrote:Just sh*t stirring of course, I'll have a beer with anyone who is buying me beer......


Me too. Where's the best place to find people like this?
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby No Kayak » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:37 pm

Pubs! And I'd buy anyone here a beer. As long as it doesn't involve conversation mixing kayaks and business! ;)
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Jim » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:32 pm

I work for a small company. We have a very simple website which I can update when I have time, but for the most part all it needs is our name and phone number on it, most of the rest is a waste of time.

We don't advertise in any of the industry periodicals (unless they want to write a story on one of our projects and include our name that way). We spend almost nothing on advertising, and currently almost nothing on the website (self hosted).

Currently I am working a 48 hour week over 5 days, as are all my colleagues and we still have more work than we can handle. Our work comes from various sources, much of it repeat business and most of the rest by referalls, some is specialist stuff for which we are listed in a relevant place (we don't pay for listing but we do have to pay to be auditted and maintain out accreditation to do the work). Very little new business comes from the website, mostly it is used by old clients who find it easier to google our contact details than look in their address books.

A website is not the be all and end all, even today.

We used to outsourse our web and email to a local IT guy and recently have spent time talking to a web designer as part of a funding package from the local business support organisation. Our old IT guy was good, but we didn't have control and in the end there was a situation where his server fell over when he was away on a rare holiday and we were unable to do anything about it (email being the critical element). We talked things over and he was perfectly happy for us to move away since our needs were a bit different to most of his clients, at that point I built a mail server and rebuilt another server as a webserver - we had a quiet spell. 5 years on the mail server still runs without missing a beat, the webserver has been reinstalled once due to being compromised (one day I'll have time and hardware to virtualise it, maybe).
Enter the modern web designer that comes with the funding we applied for. After some explanation he was able to understand our setup, but was unfamiliar with the platform I use. He went away and came back with a proposal for new flashy website with dynamic content and all sorts - essentially he was aiming to run the site as part of a blog so that we could each add and update things on the website as we worked. WTF? This is not something that is really possible in our line of work anyway, it is certainly something we don't have time for, and someone would need to monitor what was being posted, possibly even approve it - who has the time to do that? on top of all this it would mean moving the site (and domain) to his hosted servers, which it turns out aren't really his but is some space he leases in another party's datacentre, thus the actual people doing backups and maintenance are some company we would have no direct line of communication with. OK we would keep the email server locally which is the actual mission critical part, but what would be the point in spending a shed load of money on a website that we evidently don't need taking on a new set of regular outgoings to commit to with our irregular income and at the same time losing all control of our website. There was none, the application was withdrawn and the new website cancelled. And we still have more work than we are able to complete and are finding it impossible to recruit, but that's true for everyone in the industry just now...... The specialists we need don't exist.

To be perfectly honest, I did look at the Valley website a year ago before I decided to buy my Taran, the current site looks the same and looks great. I am not aware of current developments so to me it doesn't really look out of date, sure there are bits that are supposedly under development but I can't see that anything I really need is missing?

When buying a kayak the manufacturers websites are only one tool to try to help you narrow down your choice of boats to try, the key thing is that you really need to go to a retail outlet and try some boats and talk to the retailer about the alternatives, and then where possible try them out too. Of course I broke all the rules and only tried one boat, in fact I wasn't even looking for a boat until I tried it so all my research was really about trying to find justification to try something else. Having pretty much decided what I wanted, my next step was to contact the manufacturer and talk about options and how to order (bearing in mind that manufacturers need retailers to sell and more importantly to demo their boats so in return may only take orders through a retailer, in this case they prefer to deal direct to ensure custom options are correctly recorded and implemented).

My conclusion from all this perspective is that this has become quite a non-thread. There really isn't much to discuss and certainly no need for the trolling to have run to 4 pages. If there is a point from all this, it is that rather than bitching on a forum, it is perhaps more useful to contact the manufacturer and ask them the questions, making mention of the fact that you looked on the website but didn't find the info, something I like to call positive feedback, let the manufacturer know which areas of the site you would have found useful if they were complete/up to date.

I find it perfectly plausible (especially having visited Rockpool's factory and seen their enormous production workload and limited IT capability) that VCP have not updated their website simply because no-one has had time. They are one of the oldest brands, they still produce (by special arrangement) designs nearly 40 years old which are still in demand and still used as the benchmarks by which various types of sea kayak are judged, in addition to some of the latest models which seem to be in high demand.
The last I heard their build list was almost 6 months long.
Maybe their website is not the be all and end all?
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby Oarsome » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:53 am

Kayaks'N'Beer wrote:I'm a web developer for a living so I know the value of a good website. That said however, I know who valley are, their pedigree and their build quality without having to look at a website. Are they potentially missing trick by not spending a couple of grand on a website? Well, yes probably but that's all it is for a company in their position. If you don't know who valley are then (I'd guess) you are a very small percentage of their customer base. The internet aint the be-all end all and (especially when it comes to buying a kayak) you'd be a few IQ points short of a vegetable if you made a purchasing decision based on how the manufacturers website looks. If I'm buying a boat 99.99999999% of the decision process is based on how it feels to paddle. T'internet aint that good yet.


Uhm, we're not talking about how the website is designed, how it looks. No, we're talking about it being abandoned, and how they don't have up-to-date information on their products on it.

As for trying out boats, that is fine and well at a certain stage, but I like to make an informed shortlist before I get that far.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby M-J-B » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:46 am

Jim wrote:I work for a small company. We have a very simple website which I can update when I have time, but for the most part all it needs is our name and phone number on it, most of the rest is a waste of time.


The key is to keep it simple an not pretend it's something else... and to answer the phone when someone calls. When you get many calls with the same questions you actually save time by putting the answers on the website. Build a flashy site and leave it unattended for a couple of years and those potential new customers that end up there looking for your number might end up calling someone else.

Jim wrote:our needs were a bit different to most of his clients


That's a key element in your post. Obviously you don't operate in a global consumer oriented business.


Jim wrote:When buying a kayak the manufacturers websites are only one tool to try to help you narrow down your choice of boats to try,


Exactly! And that's why they are important (as they play a role so early in the selection process). The importance is even more significant if there are no retailers in your region who allow customers to actually try the boats and have a wide selection of boats available. If you simply go to the nearest retailer without doing your homework you might end up with a dodgy kayak simply because the retailer is mostly interested in selling what he has in stock and his views on your needs might be quite biased. If you do your homework you are more likely to travel further just to be able to try the kayak you find interesting. A good website can make a kayak interesting enough for a test run. Some may also buy a kayak without testing if no kayaks are available for test, but the marketing has to be quite convincing for that to happen in Valley price range. (I'm not saying Valley isn't worth the money.)

A local example: We have many retailers who sell and allow testing of their kayaks, P&H and Tahe among others, but there is only one retailer (to my knowledge) who represents Valley and he has no kayaks available for testing. Then there is Tiderace, Rockpool... also available for testing to some extent. So over here Valley has the worst representation and the lousiest webiste... not a winning combination. Buying Valley is practically mail order without a catalogue. I'm sure the situation is similar in many parts of the world. I find it difficult buying Valley but easy looking at other alternatives.

Jim wrote:it is perhaps more useful to contact the manufacturer and ask them the questions,

Perhaps... if you are lucky enough to get an answer.

Jim wrote:I find it perfectly plausible (especially having visited Rockpool's factory and seen their enormous production workload and limited IT capability) that VCP have not updated their website simply because no-one has had time. They are one of the oldest brands, they still produce (by special arrangement) designs nearly 40 years old which are still in demand and still used as the benchmarks by which various types of sea kayak are judged, in addition to some of the latest models which seem to be in high demand.
The last I heard their build list was almost 6 months long.


Are you saying that the competitors do not have kayaks to build and instead spend their days fiddling with their webpages? Or are you saying that Brit manufacturers are lagging behind in production technology?
One would imagine the competitors would be even more busy as they do not have 40 year old designs that still are good... they have to spend a lot of time on developing new designs too. (I have already lost count on how many new models Tahe has introduced in the last five years or so.)

Jim wrote:Maybe their website is not the be all and end all?


Nope, but there is something wrong with it ;>
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby merimies » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:33 am

Jim wrote
To be perfectly honest, I did look at the Valley website a year ago before I decided to buy my Taran, the current site looks the same and looks great. I am not aware of current developments so to me it doesn't really look out of date, sure there are bits that are supposedly under development but I can't see that anything I really need is missing?

One woman from our club recently bought an Thermoform Avocet. It is a neat boat and she is really happy with it. On the web it is almost impossibel to find any information. Are they are sold in UK at all? I think if Valley is proud of the boat, they also could advertise it.
Hope they will go strong a long time, as I appreciate their boats very much.
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby rockall » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:34 am

Jim, I can fully understand why you rejected the web designer who came with the funding, and how it works better for you to do-it-yourself. If you say you don't need much more than a page with a telephone number and address, then I believe it - it's your business and you know what you need. And that is not a flashy web site. Fine.

But reading between the lines (sorry, I don't know what your business actually is/does) I'd hazard a guess and say you're in some kind of industrial consultancy/service type of business. And there is a whole sea of difference between your situation and Valley's. You are probably (again forgive me if I guess) in the business-to-business sector, Valley are in the consumer retail sector. This is a much more 'emotive' market where you're playing with the hopes, desires, aspirations, nay even longings of the consumer. You're selling to the person who's scrimped and saved and deliberated and who agonises over colour and minor detail. You're selling, effectively, to fusspots. In a competetive market your products need not just functionality but appeal, and your web site should reflect that, too.

Of course web sites aren't the be-all and end-all, and of course we'd be fools if we didn't go out and see the boats and demo them if we can, I think we all know that - although not all of us can so easily just drop by the shop or go to a demo day, your dealer may be many miles away. And this is where the web site can help, providing the 'hook' to get the consumer interested in your product, get them on your side, pre-load them if you like with positive vibes! I'll hold my hand up and admit that I have spent a happy hour designing my own boat colours at the P&H site, and damned good fun it was, too (got a gorgeous grey and yellow design I still lust after!). I haven't got a P&H boat, although I have demo'd some - but the experience still positively disposes me towards P&H products. If you'd like to use a sea kayaking analogy, their wave has caught me and taken me for a nice little ride!

So yes, yes, yes - we must try out a boat and talk to the dealer, it's common sense isn't it, you wouldn't buy even a secondhand car without doing that. But if you passed by the BMW web site, found it a year or more out of date, looking neglected and with incorrect product information, would you start to wonder about the wisdom of buying BMW, would doubts about the product and company creep into your mind? Apparently a few people here wouldn't give two hoots, but I imagine there's some pretty normal consumer behaviour patterns going down across the whole of the kayaking market ;)
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Re: Is something wrong at Valley...

Postby No Kayak » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:53 am

Another thing you notice with specialist internet fora, is the assumption that everyone out there shares the same knowledge and brand awareness of whatever subject to which it relates.

Sea Kayaking is a growing area of paddlesports- there are a lot of floating voters out there who will not attach importance to the sea kayak manufacturer's brand names or history in the same way many people posting on here will- the presentation of the brand and quality of the present product are incredibly important in attracting those people who have no prior knowledge or prejudice. It is for each brand out there to present themselves as a clean sheet to new entrants to the hobby.

Even someone who has made their first purchase, say a plastic sea kayak, who wants to move into composite, isn't necessarily going to be in with all the history and folklore. Many people will do a bit of their own research, walk into a dealer and order the boat they had already decided they wanted before walking through the door. That might not be the ideal way to spend £2500 on a boat, but we shouldn't pretend it doesn't happen- it does happen, a lot.

Lastly, sea kayaking is truly worldwide. Anything from a tiny business like Rockpool through to very large ones such as Johnson Outdoors supply to all corners of the globe. Whilst North America and Western/Northern Europe have years of knowledge on the subject and well established supply routes, the real growing markets, such as Eastern and Southern Europe, Australasia, the Far East and South America do not. There isn't a wise old paddling community or dealer network to rely on in getting impressions. These markets rely very much on the internet for information gathering and forming aspirations.
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