Tow Lines - sea boats

[Mike Buckley]

Gotta get the sea-posts to 100 somehow!

Thoughts please on tow-lines, but specifically for sea-boats.

I'm interested in thoughts from people using the new-fangled lines which have a nice little deck mounted bag and comparisons from those still using a line "looped" back from the rear to some point near the cockpit.

Thoughts on varying length (daisychaining/a hook/whatever) and also on any methods of re-rigging for storage once a line has been used for towing, but where you aren't able to land first to re-stow.

Length - usual suggestion is 5 mtrs - too long / not enough?

Mike.

[Craig Addison]

>Gotta get the sea-posts to 100 somehow!<

You b**!!*d I wanted to do that!

Have never used a line fixed to the boat so can't really comment on these, I guess as long as you can drop the tow quickly and efficiently then all systems should work well.
I still use my belt type tow line, I extended it for sea kayaks, on the length side of things, it is whatever works best for you, I'm not sure what length my line is, (I might go & measure it if you're lucky) but I based it on having a boat length between the stern of my boat & the bow of the towed boat. A short line is a pain in a following sea as the towed boat tends to catch up with you, whereas too long a line could get tangled around bouys etc. 5 mtrs is a good starting point, but dont forget you will probably be towing from a point fixed near your cockpit, so you will need to make allowances for that.

Just measured it, 7mtrs, so if you allow 2.5mtrs for the back end of my boat that makes for a 4.5mtr line between boats.






Craig.
www.bcu.org.uk/sea
Edited by: Craig Addison at: 3/17/02 12:36:06 pm

[adrian j pullin]

I have a fixed system on my sea boat. It consists of a cam cleat just rear and to the right of the cockpit, a loop centre behind the cockpit (to get the pull square with the boat) and a second loop (actually a ring on the end of a boat) right at the back, where a rudder might go. The line then comes back to the cockpit where it clips onto a loop on the left just behind the cockpit when not in use. I find it fine but it is fixed to my boat, so if I am in another boat I have no line.

An alternative system that I have seen that works very well is to carry a line and fix it with a quick release knot to the desk line just in front of the cockpit. This gives a reasonable pull angle, and transfers between boats without problem.

The other thing I would always say about tow lines is that they should not be relied upon in big seas. I have tried to tow in 10 foot swell and no matter how long the line is, towing is impossible.

[dave miller]

I use a deck tow, and a year or so changed my hardware.

Each side I use a bull's eye fairlead behind me (doesn't remove skin from knuckles) at a position near th gunwhale that I can easily reach with a straight arm.
Closer to the cockpit (easy bent arm reach) on each side is a clam cleat (I had trouble with unplanned releases from cams, the vertically oriented clams pull the rope down under tension).

The line for is sea paddling is 15m, gives anough distance in following seas to reduce the risk of towed boat running into the back of (and possibly injuring)you. The longer also absorbs shocks.
On flat water I use a shorter 5m line (boat clear of my stern), or a belt tow.

Site stern deck hardware where your arm naturally goes to, saves groping around or having to look round.

The deck tow is great for heavy tows in waves and for longer distances, but for short tows of unloaded boats the belt tow is best.

[Richard Seaby]

I just bought a new tow system form north something - a canadian comapany anyway. It comes in throw bag. the end you usually hold has a system for fitting under the combing (sp?) of your deck - I have only used it in calm conditions but it towed fine - a bit snug to get under a gasket tyoe spray deck but otherwise great - very neat - 15 m I think - movable from boat to boat - (great since mine is plastic and I dont like drilling it) and usuable as a throw line or a climbing line. Unusually the bag which hold the line attaches to the kayak you are towing.

I can find the make if you are interested

Richard

[Graham Dore]

I use a tow from a waist belt (the belt is around the outside of my buoyancy aid so is well cushioned). I have used this for some extended tows and it seems to work well for both single and tandem tows. The line is stored in a small bag at the back of the B.A. or is stuffed down the front after deployment and release (it can be re-deployed from there quite quickly if necessary).

I used boat tows for a while and found them OK but the cleat method I was using was a bit fiddly to quickly re-deploy after release.

One thing I did learn when using a boat tow is not to run the tow-line through anything near the stern of the boat - this causes the towed boat, raft or whatever to have far too much influence over the direction your boat will point. This is not such an issue for bog-standard straight line towing but can be a major factor on tandem line astern tows or when trying to re-position a raft.

With all systems, it is useful to have a small float on the business end so that, if you drop the hook, you don't have to reel in yards of floating line from the water to get it back.

On a long tow which ended after dark on a not inconsiderable sea I learnt that it is best to have a coloured line to give the towed person (assuming they are still doing some paddling themselves) a sporting chance of not catching their paddle in the line when the swells cause the towed boat to overrun the line. Mine was black on the occasion in question - it's yellow now!

[NickB]

I use a deck mounted system with the common fairlead and camcleat arrangement, the line being stuffed into a velcro sealing bag that is then stowed under an elastic net fixed between decklines immediately behind the cockpit.

Restowing is easy, the whole lot can be stuffed back in the bag and the bag replaced under the net without assistance.

Advantages of this arrangement are many; no stress on body during extended tows or whilst towing multiple kayaks or other weighty objects; easily, infinitely adjustable towline length just by locking the towline in the desired position and allowing the free end to trail in the water; rapid simple release in the event of an emergency.

In my opinion the length of towline needs to be far longer than discussed previously, my line is nearly 15m in length, this gives plenty of distance between the boats especially for a following swell. Another advantage of having this length of towline is that it allows the 'Husky' tow to be performed efficiently.

For those of you who do not know this one it is where two or more boats can tow the casualty(ies) at the same time with their towlines attached directly to the casualty(ies) boats. The towing paddlers sitting abreast to each other but a few meters apart.

Advantages to this include; should the towing paddlers stop paddling the casualty(ies) kayaks will not smash into their backs but harmlessly come up between them to instantly form a raft to give assistance etc; if the towing paddlers actively paddle backwards the casualty(ies) can be emergency stopped; directional stability is maintained around objects and the load of the tow is equally divided between the towing boats unlike 'line astern' towing.

Obviously this kind of towing is a team skill in its own right and in my opinion should be practiced in a variety of conditions in much the same way as rolling or rescues, but having used it in anger in moderate conditions and for the rescue of among other things a speedboat and a yacht it is well worth the effort and a lot less unpleasant than doing all the work yourself like when you are the initial boat attached to the casualty(ies) in a 'line astern' tow.

[Jim]

OK, I haven't used my towline, and I have already learned something about the length of it from other posters, but I'll describe it anyway!

The cam cleat is Port just aft of the cockpit, with a fairlead aligned centrally just aft of the pump flat and just forward of the bulkhead (yes I have a big space behind my seat!). My line is about 5m - was over but the knot has brought it back to 4.95m, which appears to be too short according to others with more experience. The length was determined by my Dad - He needed a towline and I said get some line for me so I don't have to cannabilise my river waist tow! He has a similar claeting/fairlead arrangement and then runs the rope aft to an extra loop of shock-cord threaded through the toggle holes (I think) and then back to the cockpit where it is clipped somewhere. He has incorporated a loop of shockcord somewhere in the middle of this (so loads of knots mid-rope). I didn't like this theory and argued a little over whether the line should be lead through a loop on the stern - I agree with whoever says not, and I also thought it was just way too much line to be slapping around on deck (I keep my decklines much taughter than him too!).

From the fairlead my line simply goes into an old bum bag (fanny pack to Americans), which I just wrapped around the decklines over my splits giving them extra security! Inside the bag the line runs clean to about 40cm below the krab, and there I have incorporated my shock absorber - I hope I can explain it! First I Opened the braid of the line with a marlinespike and passed the shockcord through the rope (I don't have a fid), tied a half hitch around the rope and then whipped the end of the shockcord tight to the rope. This leaves absolutely minimum obstruction so that if necessary this part will still fit through the fairlead (I think). The end of the rope has a double figure of eight to form the loop for the krab (with a half hitch as a paranoia lock), the shock cord is then threaded through the figure of eight such that when slack it is only 20cm between the point I threaded it through the rope and the knot - this leaves a loop of about 20cm of rope hanging slack, until the tension is taken up and the shockcord stretches to the same length as the rope. I used the spare shockcord to bind the krab loop so that the krab is held rigidly enough to snap it in place just holding the knot - this was an afterthought.

An alternative way of threading the shock cord did occur! The rope is hollow, so it would be feasible to thread the shockcord inside it and sew it to the rope. this would make the rope bunch up, and I really don't know if it would look neater or run smoother, but it's a thought!

Anyway the point is Mike, if you thread it to the stern and back you will get a 5m line (roughly) and it will annoy you! If you stuff it in a sack (Hey you could even use a 15m throwbag as it is, or add a shock absrber) or bag of some kind you can push it under a deckline or tie it the deck lines or something keeping it handy yet well out of the way and make it any length you like.

JIM

[Mike Buckley]

Cheers folks - I think I'll convert to the "bag" idea.

Thoughts on attaching shock-absorber - like Jim, I opened up the old throw line I used to make my tow-line and inserted a length of bungee which was then secured using some clever little stainless u-shaped clamps I found in a chandlers.

After they've been placed in position you just squeeze them with a pliers and they tighten nicely. The rope is then wrapped around the bungee a few times and secured in the same manner at the other end of the bungee. (Rope will tighten before the bungee reaches the end of its stretch).

Then a bit of free line, a float and a stainless clip with an overcentre spring, again from the chandlers. Clip attaches front right to a loop at the end of the right front deck-line.

I currently use a loop at the back of the boat to double the line back where it's secured with a mini-crab. Undo the crab and the line clears the loop and the tow point is then the fairlead behind the cockpit. Cam-cleat on the left.

There's also some daisy chaining in the line just behind the shock-absorber with a removable peg. Just to provide some extra line. (Thats probably a bit ott!)

Yep, I like my gadgets too!!

Now - thoughts on the best place to keep splits? Back deck where they are tidy but foul the tow and are a bit diffilcult to get at, especially in the sort of situation where you need them, having lost/broken your main paddle - or, on the front deck where they catch the spray and throw it in your face and spoil the lines of the boat ??????

Mike.

[Mike Buckley]

- - - yes, I'm bored again! Just a further thought, if only to show just how pedantic I can be (heh heh ;) ), you can buy lengths of heat shrink plastic intended as "whipping" for synthetic rope which make very neat little covers to hide the clips I described earlier!

[Jim]

If you are paranoid about breaking/losing paddles and having to retrieve splits and roll I don't think it matters which end they go (as long as you can reverse screw). In which case go for the rear, there is normally more room and less shape to the deck, not to mention the aesthetic and spray reasons you mentioned. I guess the real issue is blades towards cockpit or away from it, they fit better towards, but you can retrieve them and roll if they are away...

My first sea trip was in an Anas Acuta, with a friend in the same - before we went we drilled in capsizing freeing a split paddle and rolling with one half. I can't quite recall the end setup, but I do recall my friend had at least one blade on the foredeck with a shockcord stretched over the handle and hooked on a small hook so it was all very quick release. We also stuck t-grips in our prefered rolling half paddle. All of this was way OTT! OTOH I have never worried about rolling a sea kayak at all, or in fact any kayak with only half a paddle since (C1 is different!)

Hey, maybe with a keyhole cockpit and 4 way splits you could keep them in the cockpit, in a knee tube or something :-)

JIM

[Mike Buckley]

>We also stuck t-grips in our prefered rolling half paddle<

This is suggested on a New Zealand sea paddling site I found on my trawls round the net. IIRC the writer suggests its almost mandatory as far as he's concerned for competency assessment.

It seems logical but I dont't think I've ever seen anyone using a similar setup in UK waters. Personally I doubt whether I could recover a paddle from the rear deck while upside down in some Sound.

Blade(s) forward on the front deck covers the compass which is a nuisance. What we need is some form of "foldable blade" concept which automatically springs out ready for use. Or perhaps manufacturers should consider deck mouldings to store splits - rather like P&H used to do on the rear deck. Come to think of it, they used to supply splits which fitted the mouldings although that seems to be discountinued now. Wonder why. Might be due to the fitting of a day hatch.

Mike.

[Jim]

> >We also stuck t-grips in our prefered rolling half paddle< <

>It seems logical but I dont't think I've ever seen anyone using a similar setup in UK waters. Personally I doubt whether I could recover a paddle from the rear deck while upside down in some Sound.<

Well it worked for us on a nice calm lake :-) My friend did put in a roll in the middle of the Bristol channel, but he still had his paddles (Oh yeah, the forecast changed unexpectedly and we got caught by a force 4 or 5 whilst crossing the fastest part of the tide stream!) so it was never used in anger!

>Blade(s) forward on the front deck covers the compass which is a nuisance.<

At the time we used map compasses so no problem. I have a 70UN now! Blades on the rear deck for me!

>What we need is some form of "foldable blade" concept which automatically springs out ready for use.<

Inflatable paddles? Sp****ns perhaps? :-p

>Or perhaps manufacturers should consider deck mouldings to store splits - rather like P&H used to do on the rear deck. Come to think of it, they used to supply splits which fitted the mouldings although that seems to be discountinued now. Wonder why. Might be due to the fitting of a day hatch.<

Didn't those fit the long, skinny, square ended, presumable heavy, Schlegel sea paddles? I don't know if Schlegel still make them but they never seemed very popular with the likes of the Lendal Nordkapp and Archipeligo as competition (not to mention the specialised sea paddles I don't even know about!).

I wonder if 4-way splits would fit in BA pocket?

JIM

[NickB]

I have a P&H Orion with the recess for the blades molded in the rear deck and a day hatch so no problem there. But the paddles supplied are heavy and of the traditional long thin blade variety, not normally my choice but for an emergency they will do (I hope!!).

Now to the other problem of rolling after losing ones paddles, (assuming that even following a paddle breakage the broken bit could be used for rolling). As I see it there are two other solutions that have not been discussed, how about a hand roll? or if this is too difficult (loaded boat, stiff bones, old age, beard dragging in water etc) why not remove and use the BA, this has got to be easier than fighting to remove splits from under all that deck cargo!!

[Richard Seaby]

I can hand roll my sea boat (plastic cappella) when empty - I have never tried when full - I am waiting for the warmer weather!

Having practiced in the pool the other night - I found it suprisingly easy to get the paddle of the deck - however never tried it with all the rubbish I carry on my boat - roll on summer

[Mike Buckley]

Hmmm - interesting thoughts. I'd have thought the boat would be easier to roll when loaded (my experience anyway) so the hand-roll option should work.

Recall watching a few younger people (and obvioiusly more flexible!) using hand-rolls to good effect. Their preferred method was to throw the paddle away first. Fine, until habit took over and they threw the paddle away on the river !!!!!!! ;)

I suppose using a BA to aid the hand-roll is a thought although I'm not so sure about the concept of taking off a BA in a situation where roll failure is going to end up with you in the water, without your BA on! IF conditions were bad enough to cause a capsize in the first place (with loss of your paddle), then I'd have thought you'd certainly want your BA on.

I found a discussion on using a BA as a paddle-float a while ago. The general concensus was that taking the thing off was NOT a good idea! The concept of self-rescue with paddle-float seems very common in US/Canada but hardly ever gets mentioned in UK.

As and when it gets warmer I shall have to practise paddle recovery from the rear deck I think.

[Craig Addison]

I can't hand roll anything apart from a bat.

As for self rescues, I can get back into my Nordkapp & roll up, pump out etc. no problem. Apart from the text book paddle float rescue, the paddle float can be used as a means of assistance if you are having problems rolling up, have you tried rolling with a paddle float on your paddle? it works a treat & is much quicker than other methods of paddle float rescue.

With regards to the BA debate, I cannot see why removing it to assist you with your self rescue is a problem, the fact of the matter is that you are probably in a pretty dire situation if you are having to rescue yourself, (it is very unlikely that you will be in calm seas etc.)if using it helps you recover the situation then it's worth a try,(you can even roll with it wrapped aroud your paddle blade,try it) although trying to put it back on afterwards would probably have you rescuing yourself again!! There is probably no hard & fast answer to this one, but as I said before, the situation you're having to rescue yourself in will be pretty dire & possibly a case of life or death, so do whatever it takes to recover the situation.

Personally I don't have a paddle float on my deck etc. I don't actually have one, I always borrow one or use my BA when demonstrating rescues etc.

Keep practicing your roll & self rescues & you wont need a paddle float!! :)

Two pieces of etha foam held together with shock cord work just aswell,(the blade is pushed between the two pieces)& even make a comfy mat for lunch stops!!

Craig.
Craig. http://www.bcu.org.uk/sea

[NickB]

There is a lot of talk here about practising the retrieve split and roll. Has anybody or does anybody know someone who has been foolish enough to let go of their paddle or broken it to such an extent that they need to retrieve their splits whilst upside down?

I think this whole discussion is possibly a red herring and that the complete concept is something dreamt up by bored coaches looking to get students to foul up!

[Craig Addison]

The retrieve split is a useful thing to be able to do, I'ts all so easy too loose your paddle when it all goes wrong, at least you will be able to stay in your boat & keep the situation from going to really bad.

It is not part of the 5* syllabus, (although is quite often asked to be demonstrated, usually ends up in having to do a self rescue, which is acceptable) and if any assessor fails you for not being able to do it, then appeal against the decision, there are still some rogue assessors out there. :\

Craig.




Craig. http://www.bcu.org.uk/sea

[Mike Buckley]

In all fairness, I've only been paddling for 10 years or so and I've seen one broken paddle and one paddle being lost - both on rivers. Splits saved the day.

My sea paddling only goes back 5 years or so and I've never seen anyone capsize on any trip I've been on, let alone drop a paddle or loose it. Certainly never seen a paddle broken. I've nearly had it whipped out of my hands, but only "nearly".

With novices, the risk of loss is clearly much higher.

Which doesn't mean that it can't or doesn't happen to experienced paddlers so Craig's argument is sound. I can't see the point of having kit that you don't know how to use and being able to use it in a variety of ways is even better.

If being able to recover a spare paddle when I'm doing my aquatic bat impression and then roll saves me a bail-out in less than wonderful conditions, then it's a skill worth developing.

Certainly worth developing if planning any solo paddling.

Mike.

[Richard Best]

I agree, paddlefloat re-entry and roll self rescue is worth trying.

I'm a novice with an unreliable (but improving) roll. During a pool session this week I rolled a capella without difficulty. I then tried reverting to an extended paddle roll (pawlata?) and found I felt much more confident.

I tried re-entering the capsized capella and rolling up, and managed OK there too. But then, with the paddlefloat, it was effortless and I think would be a great way to recover from capsize in a real-life situation. I'm looking forward to practising outside in colder(!) water.

Regards, Richard
Edited by: Richard Best at: 4/28/02 12:31:03 am

[dave miller]

Yes, I have seen a couple of very prominent paddlers with very impressive histories, loose their paddles in the tide race at North Stack.

Personally I keep my splits on the bow deck, and thet are of the long thin type (not really Greenland, more 'early Greenford').
Thin blades store easier and roll better provided you stick to rolls with a sweep. These blades are different to use, so you must practice before you find yourself in the poo.

I have broken a couple of blades, but you still have one left to roll on, and either C1 ashore or get out the splits.

Buoyancy aid removal - I only wear mine on the sea when offshore or getting nervous, but it is always on deck or inside on trips.
If you have it on, and all your normal rolls and supports have failed, you are probably running short of air. This is not the time to be getting undressed.

The chances of getting it back on without capsizing once upright (and I'll only give you 10% on the float roll in those conditions) is very slim.
Do you try to stow it, ditch it or just loose it?

If you're thinking of using your BA as a paddle float, I think you have missed a step or two along the way.

Don't forget the hand roll - with the help of a small breaking wave it can happen, just dont depend on it.

[Aled]

As in all good discussions there's an opposite view... I swear by a belt tow line for sea kayaking, as my experience of sea kayaking has negated all other designs due to their limitations.

A common scenario: Tidal race, waves head height or above, your mate swims and lets go of his boat. The boat happily surfs away... You have 2 rescuers, one picks up the guy in the water, you, the other goes to fetch the boat. Clipping onto an empty kayak in breaking waves when your line is around your back somewhere is difficult, especially when you have no setup time and have to react instantly. Belt mounted, the clip can be manipulated one-handed, easily got hold of and held in your hand while paddling forwards and puts you the least amount of danger when up close to the empty kayak, all this has to be done in the breaking waves. A belt tow system gets you back in the eddy in the least amount of time.

To me, the speed of deployment and repacking is the critical factor, comfort is the least. Many systems used by paddlers do not allow proper repacking or even needing assistance to repack. An "use once" towline is very limited. I need a system where I can deploy in the roughest of weather without compromise to me or to time, and in the same conditions allow me to repack ready for another deployment, again in the shortest time.

When the weather's calm and there is no urgency at all, go for comfort and looks. If you paddle rough stuff, your towline is your first emergency service. It's a system that's used when the pressure's on, the clock's ticking and mistakes are expensive.

End of rant!
Aled

[Mike B]

Aleds point is interesting and while it certainly has obvious merit for rescueing a boat and getting it into an eddy (we're almost talking river philosophy here) I still wonder how he would like to undertake a distance tow of a loaded boat in heavy/big seas using a waist belt.

Diffferent scenarios - different requirements. The important factor is to be aware of the needs and limitations and use a system that works for you in the given circumstances.

Mike.

[Richard Seaby]

Could you not just take the belt of and attach it to you deck line for a long tow? I havent tried it - but I have towed from my deck lines before with just a rope and it worked OK

Just a thought

R

[RossC]

I recently attended a level 2 coach training (inland). When we were going through kit I presented my tow system - made up of a diving weight belt, bungee cord, floating line and crab. The instructors comment was that it was fine but that the lack of CE approval might be an issue if I ever ended up in a negligence case!

Besides the likelihood of ever being sued for negligence because of failure of a tow system - what are peoples thoughts on this. It sounds like a lot of the systems being used are to some extent "home made". How does this fit with CE approval and does it matter?

[Steve B]

From a layman's knowledge of how English law works - you might be called upon to justify your decisions and actions, and that includes choice of safety kit. If(*) there's an approved and accepted standard and you choose not to use it, that's not necessarily a problem but you may find yourself having to justify your decision.

Why not have a practice run and justify it here?

SB.

*btw I didn't even know there was such a thing as CE approval for tow lines. Shows how much use my advice is.

[RossC]

I think the instructor was making comparison to using a karabiner and sling combination (both of which would be CE approved but not necessarily for this purpose)for a shoulder tow (fine for level 2 terms of reference). He also mentioned proprietary waist belt tow systems. I can't remember now if these were CE stamped or not.

My thoughts on this point were similar to yours. I've tried it, it works, lets not get too stupid on the whole negligence thing!

[Steve B]

This being the Sea forum, and as the discussion had been about extended tows, and as you were talking about Level 2 Inland which takes place on water where an extended tow might be useful, I rashly assumed you were talking about extended tows. And as you talked about CE approval I assumed you were referring to a piece of equipment designed and approved for the job. Silly me :-)

There is absolutely definitely no CE approval for the sling/krab towing system. Both pieces of equipment are being used for a purpose they weren't designed for so any CE approval they might carry is irrelevant to our situation. Pity you didn't say that to the instructor really, I would have been interested to hear his response.

Interesting thought that a shoulder tow is "fine for level 2 terms of reference". I've done a fair bit of coaching in the classic level 2 situation - down the canal with a bunch of beginners - and I would say I've used far more extended tows than those where a shoulder tow would have been an option. You just don't need a towing system to return a boat and paddles to a swimmer on the canal, but you may well need to tow someone who is tired, hurt, or can't get the hang of paddling in a straight line, all of which need something longer than a 2m sling.

Steve B.

[Mike B]

Richard said "Could you not just take the belt of and attach it to you deck line for a long tow?"

Most tow belts aren't long enough for an effective towing system on the sea.

No quick release - potentially fatal.

Severe risk of boat damage as the deck fittings get ripped out.

Other than that, perhaps it could work - - - - ;)