Rolling for real - discuss^

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...

Postby ChrisS » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:23 am

User avatar
ChrisS
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:53 pm
Location: London

Postby tpage » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:41 am

MarkR wrote:
tpage wrote:It is unwise to state that sea kayakers dont capsize.


I don't think it is...for all the images folk have tried to portray of sea paddling as an adrenaline sport in recent years, most sea kayakers capsize rarely or never.

However...to conclude that rolling and rescue skills are therefore unimportant would be very unwise.


I guess that make me special too - John..

I certainly dont see sea paddling as an adrenaline sport- far from it- I got into it for the "chill out factor". In fact, I think I'm the only sea kayaker who hasnt actually seen Justine's TITs yet.
But you have a point Mark- most sea kayaker will not capsize - but some will..I think its better to have the view that it will happen.
User avatar
tpage
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:44 pm
Location: Glasgow

Postby Jim » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:26 pm

Chris S - point taken, a lot of people refer incorrectly to Eskimo rescues as T rescues these days and I have fallen into the habit, especially when someone else starts it :-)

Tony, John, anyone else that seems to think I or anyone else have said that sea kayakers don't capsize so dont need to roll should go back and read over the statements again. It is a fact that the vast majority of sea kayakers never fall in, I can't see anywhere that anyone has stated that this means they don't need to be able to roll. It's quite the opposite in fact, everyone who has supported the fact has also supported the view that rolling is still an important skill despite it (unless I've misread someone).

The problem I find is that whilst for me learning to roll made it easier to stay upright because it gave me a confidence boost, I have also seen the exact opposite effect where people who learned to roll too early in their progression subsequently didn't bother to master support strokes properly and fell in for the slightest little thing, worse still, there was a brief trend (or maybe becase I don't paddle with clubs any more I just don't see it anymore) for people to learn to handroll in the pool and end up defaulting to that on rivers and actually letting go of the paddle because they didn't really know what to do with it!

So as far as I am concerned rolling is a very useful tool for all manner of reasons as long as it is learned in context. Rolling boosts confidence and can be a major boost to the learning of other "wet" strokes such as sculling and bracing, so long as people continue to perfect those strokes after they have learned to roll. Learning one roll on one side simply as a means for righting the boat is not the best plan, learning as many different rolls as you can on both sides is much more useful because it gives you a toolset to choose from, hopefully subconsciously when reacting to real life situations. The motion you use for an unusual roll on your offside might just be useful in some spur of the moment compond support stroke that you make up on the spot and which means you never actually go over.

Jim
User avatar
Jim
 
Posts: 12341
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton

Postby Geoff Seddon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:51 pm

I am another member of the capsizing sea kayaking club and whilst I would not advocate rolling as a prerequisite to participation in a trip, by any means, it is the best rescue technique available, in that it is quick and not reliant on anyone else. Also the fundamental to rolling ie. a hip flick (terrible term) or the ability to change the angle betwen your trunk and the boat, is what will keep you upright in the first place, assist a low, or high brace, in the second and bring you up from a deep sculling position in the third. Rolling a sea boat is no more difficult than rolling a white water boat but certainly the tempo is different, particularly when loaded and this can catch out fairly competant white water rollers. If you are a one sided roller you may well find that you have to effectively roll twice, once to get the boat and yourself into the position from which you can roll and then to actually roll up. Practise everything in a non stressfull environment, then gradually add on distracting factors until you are pretty much guaranteed to succeed wherever you may happen to need those skills and that goes for taking a bearing, using the radio, or rolling. I have found that a piece of towel kept in my deck bag helps my rolling considerably.
User avatar
Geoff Seddon
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Horwich

Postby ian.miller » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Bonnie
I teach people to roll all the time,mainly in pools since learning to roll in the sea usualy takes a lot more time and can be unpleasant. I'm aware of the debate about rolling in a forward position and I've seen successful pawlata and Cto C rolls used in earnest but I always make a point of teaching a good screw roll technique. I always feel that Pawlatas and Cto C's take time to set up and are difficult to set up in surf conditions. The screw roll however is easy to set up in rougher water since your paddle is close to the boat and with training as you go over you can learn to go automaticaly into the set up position. The big advantage of the stroke for sea paddlers is that if you fail to come completely up on the first sweep you can alter the paddle angle and turn the stroke into a forward scull which can then be continued as a scull for support until your hip flick/knee jerk wins the day. This is really useful as you might need the sculling support to survive what put you under in the first place. With a Pawlata for instance this sort of seamless recovery is not possible and a lot of paddlers bail out rather than go for a second set up.
ian.miller
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:47 pm

Postby YvonneB » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:10 pm

I think the video clip here

http://www.seapaddler.co.uk/Rescues.htm is the best Ive seen. Does anyone know of one done in a pool with an underwater camera so you can see the whole thing? Surely someone has done one?


Geoff, why the piece of towel? you have lost me there ...
YvonneB
 
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:07 pm
Location: Bath

Postby Twix » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:27 pm

Sorry for the confusion, I think you all worked out what I meant. Eskimo rescue.
User avatar
Twix
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:29 pm

Postby Owen » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:10 pm

Bonnie wrote:I think the video clip here

http://www.seapaddler.co.uk/Rescues.htm is the best Ive seen. Does anyone know of one done in a pool with an underwater camera so you can see the whole thing? Surely someone has done one?


Look at:

http://www.kayakquixotica.com/kayak-video.html

More rolls that you can shake a stick at.

P.S. What's called a "Sweep roll" in the clips is what we would call a "Screw Roll"; funny folk Americans.
Owen
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:42 pm
Location: Nr Stirling

What you need is a Derrick !

Postby Yellerbelly » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:24 pm

Bonnie,
Another kayakquixotica link. What you need is a Derrick! ( ignore the stuff about being hit with a stick !) :¬)
. . . . Ben
User avatar
Yellerbelly
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: Lincolnshire, UK

Postby runswick2000 » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:24 am

Jim wrote:Tony, John, anyone else that seems to think I or anyone else have said that sea kayakers don't capsize so dont need to roll should go back and read over the statements again.


Now, now Jim........perhaps you are the one who should re-read my post. I made no reference to your post, none was implied. Further, nothing in my post makes any reference to sea kayakers not needing to learn to roll. I merely ment..............I've been upside down in a sea kayak, apparently few others have, that makes me special.

For the record: I believe that the ability to roll well is very important. I thought mine was reasonably good until I went over for real and discovered that it is hard to set up when your head is bouncing on the bottom.

P.S. I still think I'm special.........
Perhaps the greatest flaw in democracy is the idea that, if a majority of the population believes arrant nonsense, it somehow makes the nonsense true.

Lifeboat Scrapbook
User avatar
runswick2000
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:17 pm
Location: swanage

Postby Geoff Seddon » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:50 am

Bonnie wrote:Geoff, why the piece of towel? you have lost me there ...

I use it to dry my hands so the papers don't get sodden and disintegrate.
User avatar
Geoff Seddon
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Horwich

Postby NickB » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:55 pm

ChrisS wrote:T-rescue and Eskimo rescue.


I have to disagree with this as the description of a T rescue, I reckon that is a X Rescue.

The T Rescue (T then X or TX) is the first part of a TX Rescue where the swimming victim's boat is swamped and the rescuer approaches at 90 deg (The T shape) and aims to plant his bow into the cockpit of the victims boat whilst the victim holds it on its side, cockpit away from him.

Once the bow is in the cockpit the victim reaches under his boat to grab the bow of the rescuers kayak and by straightening/lifting he can force his boat onto the deck of the rescuers kayak. Lying back with feet up he can then push the boat with his feet up to the rescuer for the rescue to be finished as a X Rescue.

This obviously works extremely well with loaded sea kayaks, deck clutter and a swell big enough to get someone swimming!
Cheers
Nick Benny

Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everybody in good society holds exactly the same opinions!
User avatar
NickB
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:11 am
Location: Plymouth

Postby Geoff Seddon » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:23 pm

I've not tried that Nick but it sounds horrible.
User avatar
Geoff Seddon
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Horwich

Postby Jim » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:39 pm

NickB wrote:
ChrisS wrote:T-rescue and Eskimo rescue.


I have to disagree with this as the description of a T rescue, I reckon that is a X Rescue.


Don't be silly, an X rescue is where the rescuees boat remains upside down and you haul it until the cockpit is over your own and then empty it all over yourself and into the boat through the new holes you just made in your deck.

For so many reasons the X is not very practical with sea boats.

P-rescue has to be the way forward for swimmers, but Eskimo rescue is still the thing for training to roll........

Jim
User avatar
Jim
 
Posts: 12341
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton

Postby Ceegee » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:37 am

Now I'm a bit lost here..., Jim said:
I would generally advise against the Pawlata because it is such a pain to set up for


Now I started in WW/slalom too, and agree the screw roll was the way to go, having initally leaned the Pawlata and moved on.

I'm now getting into greenland paddles, and as Derrick says in the link:

Most often some form of extended paddle roll or Pawlatta is the perfect ticket


Afterall, the Pawlata is just a European modificaton of Greenland extended paddling techniques.

I've two reasons for this: My lateral reach is impaired due to an old back injury. I can lay back fine, but sideways reach is more difficult, so clearing the blades from the gunwale is harder with an (unextended) screw, and:

If I go over, its likely to be due to a failed low brace in a beam or quartering sea, so in GP style, I'd expect to have the blade extended and set into the wave. When I go over surely I'm then set up to come up 360 with the wave set and have the (extended) paddle poised for another brace if needed?

I'll admit, head seas or surfing is another case, so layback (also extended - from a stern rudder position) is a better way to go?

I guess all this proves is that whatever you are comfortable woith and works is best, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with extended paddle rolls, or am I just complacent and not prepared or able to extend my repetoir?

Cheers

Steve
User avatar
Ceegee
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:32 pm
Location: Mizen Head, Ireland (see above)

Postby Jim » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:37 pm

Personally I never move my hand position on the paddle for anything (especially because I use cranked paddles), but then I don't suffer from problems with lateral reach. To me anything that requires you to move your hands on the paddle shaft introduces delay and possibility of something going wrong - the paddle could rotate or be dragged out of your grip. Obviously with a pawlata your hand on the near blade helps with orientation but with other extended paddle stuff don't you find that once you leave the ovalled part of the shaft you lose that instinctive feel for where the blade is facing?

To be honest my main support stroke tends to be forward paddling :-)

However I have already stated that over reaching is the cause of many failures (IMO) - I still think a screw roll is generally better than a pawlata because you learn not to reach but to use trunk rotation instead. Perhaps this would help you or perhaps it would be impossible for you, I can't say!

Jim
User avatar
Jim
 
Posts: 12341
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton

Postby Ceegee » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:38 pm

Your not wrong Jim,

Jim wrote:
Obviously with a pawlata your hand on the near blade helps with orientation but with other extended paddle stuff don't you find that once you leave the ovalled part of the shaft you lose that instinctive feel for where the blade is facing?


I always used the screw in WW/Slalom, mainly cos' of time and keeping tight on the course - played a bit of polo too - similar considerations. My biggest gripe then on the pawlata was getting the blade angle over enough with the old 90 deg feather WW blades - another reason for the screw.

With my GP by contrast (unfeathered, rounded square loom) the hands seem to progress naturally down the blades and their narrowness seems to overcome slicing. It just seems natural to slide up and down the shaft as needs dictate.

Anyhow, I'll play around more when the water temp. improves. Dying to perfect a static brace :0). I was planning to shove some extra foam in my PFD back pocket - is this cheating???

Cheers, Steve
User avatar
Ceegee
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:32 pm
Location: Mizen Head, Ireland (see above)

Postby Robert Craig » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:33 pm

sparky2488 wrote:Sorry to play devils advocate here but the "Sea Kayakers do not capsize so dont need to learn a roll", seems at best foolhardy, at worst down right dangerous !!!

Well, there's a saying "don't let the excellent be the enemy of the good enough". The risk of going around saying that a sea kayaker learning to roll is a good thing (which it obviously is) is that the idea might be twisted into saying "you can't go sea kayaking until you can roll", which manifesly isn't true.

The thing to do to maintain safety is to paddle in places and conditions within one's capabilities. There's hard scary bits of sea, and there's easy bits of sea. Same as there's the Eiger and Ben Lomond - they're both mountains, but they need different skills.
User avatar
Robert Craig
 
Posts: 534
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:55 pm
Location: Glasgow

Postby Cornholio » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:28 pm

Well, after some perseverance I'm now (pool) screw rolling on both sides. and going back and doing the pawlata seems all a bit bizarre now. Was doing the screw roll with the 220 sea paddle to start with, and this week tried the 194 (as it's the only paddle I'll use with the Honcho) and that was surprisingly fine too. It is far quicker and seems far more natural- though I've never tried a roll "for real" in my sea boat so when that day comes it'll be pawlata>"normal side" screw>offside screw (if it gets that far!)- Maybe with a bit of self rescue practice chucked in...!
The pool is such a user friendly environment though- and pretty detatched from river/sea reality. I've been doing the rolls at the last session with eyes shut and going over from all sorts of positions except paddle by the side of the boat ready to go. The eyes shut seems to be good as you need to mentally visualise and also feel for the orientation of the blade on the water, rather than looking at it through clear blue water!!
No doubt I'll get a big reality check when the club training moves outdoors in April!!!!
"God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're f****d..."
User avatar
Cornholio
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:36 pm
Location: Kincraig- "This Is NOT The Sea!"

Postby Owen » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:13 pm

Cornholio,

When rolling in salt or fresh water, open your eyes, its surprising how much you can see; even in the Forth.

One way to simulate rolling a loaded boat is to have someone hang onto your bow and wrap their legs around the boat. Then try rolling.

If you’ve rolled in rough water you want to be ready to carry on paddling as soon as you come up; you can’t do that with a pawlata. The pawlata is just one way of progressing into a screw roll. Leave your hands where they are, if you find your not getting all the way up work on your hip flick and/or get into the habit of finishing off your roll by flicking your paddle over and sculling forward.

Finally for rolling in the sea in April get a hood, Reed do a balaclava style one that is very good.
Owen
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:42 pm
Location: Nr Stirling

rolling -sea kayak

Postby marykerry » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:08 am

just found this thread!
I am also in the process of developing a roll.
I have been sea kayaking for 2/3 years and prior to that river paddled.

I can now roll having done an excellent Plas Y Brenin course and pool practise but know my technique isn't brill but its developing .

I am trying to tackle this from 2 angles- firstly by improving my orientation/confidence when upside down and secondly developing technique.
Before I can roll I need to be ok and orientated in cold, dark water of varying degrees of turmoil so I try to have a go or 2 at rolling at the end of every trip. If I dont get up I have a pal nearby who will eskimo rescue. If I fail its no big deal and all useful experience and practice as my body is becoming more accustomed to the underwater environment. (and it provides everyone with a laugh)
Pool sessions are good to develop technique as I can see what I'm doing and get feedback from fellow rollers re what gone wrong/right as I have trouble feeling my paddle/body position and how to change it for the better. I will continue this until I am confident with my technique and it is cemented in my muscle memory.
I see any new skill development as part of my enjoyment of paddling -treat it as fun and not such a big deal..just keep having a go!
good luck Bonnie
Mary
marykerry
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:36 am
Location: caerwys

Fascinating stuff

Postby YvonneB » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:21 pm

Thanks Mary. This thread seems to have taken a life of its own and I have stayed out of it whilst enjoying all the wealth of knowledge in the contributions. I think I will follow your example and do a course at Play y Brenin, the only thing stopping me is the thought of outside practice this time of year - I need to speak to PYB first.

Thanks to all for the advice and the interesting discussion.

Yvonne
YvonneB
 
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:07 pm
Location: Bath

Postby Mark-Tozer » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:21 am

Embrace The Elements with Greenland Or Bust
User avatar
Mark-Tozer
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:58 pm

Postby Twix » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:41 pm

Bonnie, PYB have a nice warm pool.
User avatar
Twix
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:29 pm

Rolling

Postby capsized8 » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:02 pm

Twix wrote:Bonnie, PYB have a nice warm pool.


Hmmm - that is relative to outdoors no doubt.
Bonnie, if you are going to PYB take a long john wet suit with you. It is a good little pool but not heated to swimming pool standards and can get chilly.

You could also consider Plas Menai, they do rolling clinics in a larger and warmer pool.

I use both pools, PYB has the advantage of you being able to hire the pool if PYB are not using it, they have four small boats and a sea kayak for use, you will need to bring your own spray deck if you hire the pool. I would suggest your own paddle as well.
peace and good padlin.
User avatar
capsized8
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:57 pm
Location: north wales

Postby Ceegee » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:32 pm

Bonnie,

Just checked Mark's links (above) - there is another on the page, Mark Elizaga's greenland rolling - pure ballet, takes a while to load but worth it for the inspiration.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6008563334140599496

In deference to Jim, I still stand by what I said about extended paddle rolls, even Freya backs it up...

Freya said:
The Greenland paddle is made for being used extended. When the student achieved already a perfect body movement in the roll, the sweep with the extended paddle should easily be done with two fingers only


http://www.kayakunderground.com/RollingClasses.htm

Enjoy your course

Steve
User avatar
Ceegee
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:32 pm
Location: Mizen Head, Ireland (see above)

Postby sparky2488 » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:10 pm

Robert Craig wrote:
sparky2488 wrote:Sorry to play devils advocate here but the "Sea Kayakers do not capsize so dont need to learn a roll", seems at best foolhardy, at worst down right dangerous !!!

Well, there's a saying "don't let the excellent be the enemy of the good enough". The risk of going around saying that a sea kayaker learning to roll is a good thing (which it obviously is) is that the idea might be twisted into saying "you can't go sea kayaking until you can roll", which manifesly isn't true.

The thing to do to maintain safety is to paddle in places and conditions within one's capabilities. There's hard scary bits of sea, and there's easy bits of sea. Same as there's the Eiger and Ben Lomond - they're both mountains, but they need different skills.


I have to laugh at so many Anti Rolling comments, Is this a White Water / Sea split then? . . . . sure there are safe bits of water, but there also freak conditions you have no control over, suppose it's easier to rely on others to get you back in your boat than to learn to roll ????

No one ever said you shouldn't paddle if you can't roll, but I for one wouldn't be happy paddling in a group that didn't at least have an interest in trying to rescue themselves in the first instance . . . not everyone has a bombproof roll, but if someone is prepared to at least give it a go then their ok in my book . . . if your arrogant enough to think a skill that every inland paddler learns and trusts is below you then fair enough, I suppose the RNLI will love hauling your wet backside out of the water time and time again.
Last edited by sparky2488 on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sparky2488
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:36 am
Location: Meriden

Postby ChrisBainbridge » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:30 pm

One thing I have found very helpful for confidence is rolling when surfing. If you ride the surf in and then deliberately catch your edge you will be close to shore (if your roll doesn't work) you can set up before you go over initially and it is easy to the n paddle out and repeat. You can easily get 10-20 rolls in in a couple of hours. Do't know how this would work in a sea kayak but in a plastic boat ideal.

Chris
http:\\bainbridgesabbatical.blogspot.com
www.hand-surgery.co.uk
www.dupuytrens.co.uk
ChrisBainbridge
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:13 pm
Location: Derby

Postby marykerry » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:40 pm

Hey Sparky..put them sparks out and take a roll..meeeooow!

I think you've got the wrong end of the paddle..most sea paddlers who have posted are up for developing a roll....dont worry-be happy
Mary
marykerry
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:36 am
Location: caerwys

Postby Cornholio » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:38 pm

Was out on Loch Insh yesterday for a wee paddle, decided to do the roll for the first time outside the pool and all went better than expected. My Capella RM166, being totally different obviously to a Honcho, came up far better than I expected, and far quicker.Managed the Pawlata and both sides screw roll. Will have to try it laden(weight to the bottom) at some point...Even in a Neil Pryde 5/3 wetsuit, with a titanium hooded rash vest AND a chillcheater yellow balaclava underneath that(!) the loch was utterly freezing...god only knows what it would be like in a t-shirt and shorts- Probably heart failure...try the sea next I think!
"God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're f****d..."
User avatar
Cornholio
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:36 pm
Location: Kincraig- "This Is NOT The Sea!"

PreviousNext

Return to Sea Kayaking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mintokames and 7 guests