Have I Missed Something...

[TheKrikkitWars]

Or are the Countryside Alliance making actively deceptive statments about Canoe Wales?

[ChrisE]

that post is a year old...

[TheKrikkitWars]

I knew that, it just came up in a link from an article about the countryside aliance I was reading... However, it still seems wildly inaccurate and perhaps intentionally misleading.

[Big Henry]

...perhaps intentionally misleading.

I tend to agree.

[quicky]

What do you expect from the hunting, shooting, killing brigade....

[Patrick Clissold]

Probably worth not making sweeping statements like that. I'm sure many paddlers like to take part in those activities, and many of your 'killing brigade' might dabble in kayaking. Not myself, but I know quite a few that do.

Bit like rediculous polarising statements about fishermen and kayakers, because obviously no kayakers fish and no fisherman kayak.

[quicky]

Sorry if it upset you Patrick but I used to get very upset with the local hunt riding through my garden and ripping apart foxes in the back yards when the dogs had it cornered when I used to live in Lincoln. You'd ask them to leave you property and just get a load of abuse from drunken riders....

Unfortunately this is still the countryside alliances policy while they are trying through various routes to get 'agreements' only made law into parliament.

[Patrick Clissold]

I'm not upset. Take quite a bit to upset me. Sound's like you a had bad time with some hunters, just as many of us have had a bad time with a few fishermen, and others have had a bad time with a few kayakers. Just think it is worth keeping an eye on the balance of these arguements.

On a different note, it is illegal to drink drive, is it illegal to drink horse ride?

[Whitey1]

Canoe Wales admits there is "no right to paddle"
Tuesday, 20 September 2011

After a long campaign from anglers and the Countryside Alliance Wales, Welsh Government finally spells out clear message that those who canoe on inland waters must abide by guidelines.
The Countryside Alliance has today welcomed a statement from Canoe Wales which it is hoped will end the cat and mouse game over access to inland water in Wales. The statement, released on their website, has received strong support from the Minister for the Environment and Sustainability, Mr John Griffiths.

Straight from the Countryside Alliance (

the voice of the countryside

) website date 20th September 2011.

Frankly I am astonished at your response to Quicky, Patrick. Astonished on many counts. I'd say he was pretty accurate. Even if you take their homepage the three dropdown tabs are

PROMOTING HUNTING

PROMOTING SHOOTING

PROMOTING FISHING

and if you simply Google their name it opens with

Promotes the interests of rural people, including all field sports (hunting, shooting, fishing, falconry, ferreting, coursing, stalking),

Surprisingly NOT canoeing! Please excuse my cynicism but maybe if we could shoot at things other than rapids as we run the rivers they'd back us!!!

Seems to me that hunting,shooting and 'killing brigade' is pretty accurate. You say Quicky makes a polarising statement. How else would you describe them given their aims. How about the old Oscar Wilde

the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible

I certainly don't know a single canoeist who is in the Countryside Alliance. Yeah there are many canoeist anglers, there may well be some shooters though I'd doubt there would be hunters but hey I could be wrong. However I'd be very surprised if we have any canoeists who are active members of this

voice of the countryside

trying to change them from within their ranks! If so then (a) I admire their courage and (b) I despair their futility!

I think we are already polarised Patrick and let's face it we are not likely to gain support for our sport for that sector. They are an enemy, recognise them as such and remember the quote, there is no such thing as a small enemy! In fact if they have their way your excellent new book isn't going to be much use to anyone.

And here's the real deal. They speak about cat and mouse re kayaking and law defiance and just read their section under hunting. It amounts to encouragement of open law breaking. OK please don't feel I am having a go Patrick. You are an excellent ambassador for kayaking, but let's recognise that there are enemies out there and tell it like it is.

[Patrick Clissold]

I take your point about the Countryside Alliance. I guess I was more referring to the people who do those activities rather than the Alliance organisation itself.

Don't get me wrong there are enemies to our sport. And I will be the first to oppose them. I guess I've had plenty of people have a go at me after seeing my kit and assuming just because I am a kayaker that I am anti-fishing etc, which is not true. I don't want to make the same assumption on a hunter, shooter, fisherman and try and second guess their individual opinion.

[Big Henry]

This is a Damara Dik-dik (specifically a Kirk's Dik-dik):

It stands at 35–45 cm to it's shoulder, and it mates for life with one partner. It lives in Namibia, amongst other countries, where I was on holiday last month. Hunters, for so called sport, pay to sit in hides by waterholes (possibly the only one for miles around, so animal have to visit or die) and wait for them to come along so they can shoot them while they are drinking. For sport. Did I mention they are 35-45cm tall? Hopefully other readers will share my dismay and disgust at these people, and understand that I don't make any differentiation between those "hunters" and other blood sports "enthusiasts". Sorry, Patrick, but I'm with quicky on this.

What do you expect from the hunting, shooting, killing brigade....

[clarky999]

Nothing wrong with hunting, or fishing, for food. Personally I'm quite partial to venison/rabbit/pheasant/wild boar/cod/salmon...

Agree sport hunting is very different though, especially just for trophies to stick on the wall.

[Patrick Clissold]

Nothing wrong with hunting, or fishing, for food. Personally I'm quite partial to venison/rabbit/pheasant/wild boar/cod/salmon...

Agree sport hunting is very different though, especially just for trophies to stick on the wall.

My thoughts to.

[Strad]

Nothing wrong with hunting, or fishing, for food. Personally I'm quite partial to venison/rabbit/pheasant/wild boar/cod/salmon...

Agree sport hunting is very different though, especially just for trophies to stick on the wall.

Agreed, I have no issue with hunting / fishing for the pot. (add caveat about appropriate non-endangered species etc etc)

[GumGum]

I suspect that, for many on here - myself included - the issue with the 'hunting, shooting, fishing' brigade (a convenient identifier, if something of a generalisation) is not that they hunt, shoot and/or fish (although I recognise that some individuals do have their own strong views about these pursuits). It's that some of their number are abusive and hostile to kayakers, and appear (at least from the cockpit of a kayak or canoe) to be very unpleasant people indeed.

Hunting doesn't appeal. But I love fishing (not done game fishing though) - I think eating freshly caught wild fish is a fantastic pleasure. I'd be lying if I denied that I enjoyed the catching too. And I've shot a few rabbits and pheasants with my air rifle in my time - once again delicious!

Agree with the 'killing for the sake of killing' comments though - where's the pleasure in that?

[DaveBland]

I agree with the sentiment of Patrick's original statement that 'militant' speak from the paddling side of things in general does not help. The more paddlers are seen as rational and balanced – it can only help our cause generally.
Then again, hunting for hunting's sake is something I'll never understand.

[Xan]

On a different note, it is illegal to drink drive, is it illegal to drink horse ride?

More to the point is it not illegle to opporate a firearm while under the influence of alcohol?

[DaveBland]

On a different note, it is illegal to drink drive, is it illegal to drink horse ride?

More to the point is it not illegle to opporate a firearm while under the influence of alcohol?

I am usually under the influence when I operate my forearm.

[Keith Day]

Presumably this is the CW statement that the Countryside Alliance are referring to. "As far as Canoe Wales is concerned local interests are at liberty to promote arrangements that meet local needs." is a long way from agreeing there is no public right of navigation.

It can't be a surprise however as you have to have a "flexible" relationship with truth to look at Douglas Caffyns evidence of a PRN on all rivers and still deny that it exists.

[Chalky723]

and if you simply Google their name it opens with

Promotes the interests of rural people, including all field sports (hunting, shooting, fishing, falconry, ferreting, coursing, stalking),

Surprisingly NOT canoeing!

Why would they? They're only going to represent people that join them, given that you have to pay I would imagine that puts most Kayakers/Canoeists off. If a few thousand of us joined & then lobbied for a voice......

But that'd involve organisation & group commitment - something we don't seem to be very good at!!

The trouble with us is - we're a lot of individuals, we're not a group & we never act as a coordinated group, with common goals and aims and a clear objective put forward. This means that when a large body like this says something, people listen because it has a voice.

We need a voice to get our message across & we don't seem to have one yet...

C

PS - I have no axe to grind with Hunting, Shooting, Fishing etc...

[Big Henry]

I suspect that, for many on here - myself included - the issue with the 'hunting, shooting, fishing' brigade (a convenient identifier, if something of a generalisation) is not that they hunt, shoot and/or fish (although I recognise that some individuals do have their own strong views about these pursuits). It's that some of their number are abusive and hostile to kayakers, and appear (at least from the cockpit of a kayak or canoe) to be very unpleasant people indeed.

I have objections to people that kill things for sport - by it's very definition it means that people are gaining pleasure out of killing.

[janet brown]

On a different note, it is illegal to drink drive, is it illegal to drink horse ride?

I understand there was a case brought against a drunk rider, whose horse was taking them home perfectly safely after hunting. However, the horse was deemed to be "in charge", therefore the rider could not be drunk in charge, and the case failed!

....and before I get shouted down I do not hunt, fish or shoot.

Janet

[AHPP]

On a different note, it is illegal to drink drive, is it illegal to drink horse ride?

I understand there was a case brought against a drunk rider, whose horse was taking them home perfectly safely after hunting. However, the horse was deemed to be "in charge", therefore the rider could not be drunk in charge, and the case failed!

....and before I get shouted down I do not hunt, fish or shoot.

Janet

Love it!

[Chalky723]

It used to be very hard to be proved to be "drink driving" a powered boat on the rivers. As there was no age restriction on who was driving, it wasn't uncommon for the whole family to be ratarsed apart from a token 8 year old "driver"...

I believe they've cracked down on it now though!!

C